Border Collie Collapse Syndrome?

[brookitar]

It has been awhile since I've been on here but I have a serious question. Those of you who have seen my posts before know my expressed worry of my border collie Effie. Ever since she has been a puppy she has been oddly mellow...the least active dog I have ever had for sure. At first she had a really good interest in agility and little by little she lost her drive. She turned a year old June 1st. Sometimes when she plays she would sometimes have this weird sway but I was told she was completely healthy at the vet and I'm just "overreacting". Well today I caught one of her episodes after 10 minutes of play...or at least part of it on camera. She basically starts crying and sways like she's intoxicated seeming confused/alarmed. Here is the video link. Is this Border Collie Collapse Syndrome? From what I have observed over time it's more of a sway than a limp on a leg. Sometimes she will completely fall flat on her side.

As for an update she is doing fine now resting inside. She gave me a scare.

 

This is not a public video but unlisted so if you have the link you can view. Just wanted to see what experienced border collie owners thought.

 

[denice]

I am sorry your girl has moments when she does not feel well. I have had 2 bc that have had what I would call BC Collapse Syndrome but neither dog showed symptoms like your girl. One dog was after his run at a herding trial and one girl was at home during working. Both were hot days and humid and there had been mental and pyhiscal exertion. It was much more pronounced 'change' of behavior/activity than your girl shows. Their temp was super high as well. Might check your girls temp during an episode.

 

I would say something is bothering her but exactly what I do not know. I would maybe take her to a different vet for a good physical and maybe blood work, then maybe EKG. I think the vet you choose should listen when you say something isn't right. Even dogs that seizure often do not show changes in blood work so the vet may not find anything but it would a place to start. Not every vet is equally good but one that goes the extra mile for you and your dogs will try hard to figure it out.

Also I would contact the breeder and maybe other owners of pups from this litter. Behaviors and medical problems can be very 'genetic'. They might be able to shed some light on things.

[emilyfalk]

Hi,

 

I have seen a number of BCC episodes (I am a vet and it's something that interests me), and to me she simply looked hot and tired. Neurologic, yes, but not really classic for BCC. The biggest indicator for me would be history: that it happens repeatedly and isn't dependent on extreme physical exertion.

 

Denice, if your dogs each only showed one episode of collapse, I don't think that would be considered BCC. That sounds like a dog who has gone beyond his physical limits, like a marathon runner who collapses after a race. Normal dogs can have significantly elevated body temperatures after exercise, I don't believe they've found a correlation with that and BCC.

 

Watch dogs coming off a trial field: every dog can be pushed (maybe inadvertently) to the point of being weak and staggery.

 

Some of her mannerisms are different than your typical BCC dog: affected dogs are mentally dull, subdued, and may have decreased responsiveness to the person talking to them or to their surroundings. Their eyes look glazed over and their expressions far-away, their tongues drop limply out of the front of their mouth and are flat as they pant. I think Effie looks hyped up, not depressed.

 

Effie does have neurological deficits in this video, but to me it looks more like that is primarily due to exhaustion. Affected dogs are stiff and restricted in their gait and knuckle over (they can't place their feet correctly and stand/walk on the top of the feet).

 

Maybe others will have different experiences, but the dogs I've seen in person and on video have a very distinctive set of physical signs.

 

How is her weight? Have you checked her thyroid? Heart?

[Bordercentrics]

Not being a vet, it looks like possible seizure activity to me. The wobbliness and rear collapse and especially the rapid eye blinking are very different from the symptoms our Ruby exhibits. Ruby has BCC. She is high drive and very active, so our biggest challenge has been to not let her overexert. Strenuous, intense exertion can bring on a collapse. Ruby goes down all the way, and suddenly. She lies on the ground and while she tries to get up, she has no motor control until she recovers, which takes a minute or so. She is then completely normal with no aftereffects. Her eyes are not glazed over, so our vet says that it isn't seizure. There are no symptoms for our vet to find. Since you say Effie is mellow and not very active, you may want a complete workup to find out why gentle activity exhausts her so much. Perhaps heart problems? Good luck.

 

Kathy Robbins

[Maralynn]

I had a dog who had what I assumed was heat exhaustion a few times. He got wobbly, mentally dull uncoordinated after exercise at higher than normal temps (at one time it was only mid 70s but it was much warmer than it had been). I cooled him off immediately and he quickly went back to normal.

 

It almost appears in the video that Effie's symptoms seem to come and go just a bit. It looks a bit different than what I saw with my dog. Have you taken her temperature so you know if she's overheated? Have you deliberately cooled her off and seen an improvement in symptoms?

 

Showing the actual video to your vet may be really helpful.

[brookitar]

I am sorry your girl has moments when she does not feel well. I have had 2 bc that have had what I would call BC Collapse Syndrome but neither dog showed symptoms like your girl. One dog was after his run at a herding trial and one girl was at home during working. Both were hot days and humid and there had been mental and pyhiscal exertion. It was much more pronounced 'change' of behavior/activity than your girl shows. Their temp was super high as well. Might check your girls temp during an episode.

 

I would say something is bothering her but exactly what I do not know. I would maybe take her to a different vet for a good physical and maybe blood work, then maybe EKG. I think the vet you choose should listen when you say something isn't right. Even dogs that seizure often do not show changes in blood work so the vet may not find anything but it would a place to start. Not every vet is equally good but one that goes the extra mile for you and your dogs will try hard to figure it out.

Also I would contact the breeder and maybe other owners of pups from this litter. Behaviors and medical problems can be very 'genetic'. They might be able to shed some light on things.

 

 

Thank you I'm glad you have experience on the issue and it doesn't look like the same thing. At what age did your borders show BCS? Next time I want to check her temp but at the moment I didn't have a probe...actually I'm not even sure how to take dog temp I've only done it for humans rectally. I'll have to watch videos so I don't hurt her.

 

Yes I'll have to take her to a new vet and show them the video. She has done it more than once...Effie becomes physically tired so fast. Now I can really see the difference compared to our new adopted border collie. Good advice I really need to get into contact with her breeders.

[brookitar]

Hi,

 

I have seen a number of BCC episodes (I am a vet and it's something that interests me), and to me she simply looked hot and tired. Neurologic, yes, but not really classic for BCC. The biggest indicator for me would be history: that it happens repeatedly and isn't dependent on extreme physical exertion.

 

Denice, if your dogs each only showed one episode of collapse, I don't think that would be considered BCC. That sounds like a dog who has gone beyond his physical limits, like a marathon runner who collapses after a race. Normal dogs can have significantly elevated body temperatures after exercise, I don't believe they've found a correlation with that and BCC.

 

Watch dogs coming off a trial field: every dog can be pushed (maybe inadvertently) to the point of being weak and staggery.

 

Some of her mannerisms are different than your typical BCC dog: affected dogs are mentally dull, subdued, and may have decreased responsiveness to the person talking to them or to their surroundings. Their eyes look glazed over and their expressions far-away, their tongues drop limply out of the front of their mouth and are flat as they pant. I think Effie looks hyped up, not depressed.

 

Effie does have neurological deficits in this video, but to me it looks more like that is primarily due to exhaustion. Affected dogs are stiff and restricted in their gait and knuckle over (they can't place their feet correctly and stand/walk on the top of the feet).

 

Maybe others will have different experiences, but the dogs I've seen in person and on video have a very distinctive set of physical signs.

 

How is her weight? Have you checked her thyroid? Heart?

 

 

Thank you I'm so happy I ran into a vet on this forum. I am very glad this does not look like BCS. During the winter she didn't run as much as she does not (she is grown and has a companion now) I'll keep an eye when she exerts herself in low temperatures. If she has another episode I plan to take her temperature. As for her weight she is still 36 pounds. I suggested to her vet to get lab work done before but he didn't think it was necessary. I don't know if its because I'm young and this is my first dog that people at the vet aren't taking me seriously about how she acts...it gets really frustrating sometimes. This dog doesn't like to run for more than 10 minutes even in 40 degrees. The only diagnosed problems she has had since I've had her was Demodex Mange for 3 months.

Yesterday this occurred around 6 PM, the dog park is relatively shady about 90 degrees. She ran laps around with her companion for a little less than 10 minutes before the symptoms occurred. Her companion is another border collie, he was hardly panting after play.

If this is due to overheating should I shave her hair or is that bad for this breed? I've met people with Aussies who have told me to never shave their hair.

 

So shortly after this occurred I took her out when it was no longer sunny, about 8:30. My neighbor came to the dog park and brought her child. Effie is typically a shy dog that does not interact with humans besides us, especially children. Her son about 8 was running around the park even when he was told not to by his mother many times. Effie displayed unusual amounts of affection for her child...she had been introduced to him many times before not taking any interest. This affection turned into trying to herd him she has never done this to any human before. I'm told by a lot of people Effie is the most obedient dog they have ever seen. Well last night I was screaming at her at the top of my lungs she wouldn't listen to me. She ended up nipping her child's leg giving him a bruise with a pin prick break in the skin. The situation was absolutely surreal she has never acted this way before and now I will never leave her unleashed around children ever again. Could what happened two hours before this incident change her behavior/judgement?

 

BTW she is current on rabies and all other vaccines.

[GentleLake]

I have a dog who I think has mild BCC. It's pretty mild and easily controlled by limiting intense exercise in warm weather or having swim rather than run when the weather's warm so I've never pursued an official diagnosis.

 

But I agree with the others. It doesn't look like what your dog's experiencing. I noticed the same thing Mara did, that Effie's symptoms seem to come and go. With Bodhi, and in videos I've watch of BCC (Can't remember where I saw them. Here, maybe? Or YouTube? Might be worth doing a search to watch and compare.) it's pretty consistent until the dog recovers, which is pretty even and gradual rather than the stop and start that Effie does.

 

I, too, wondered about the possibility of a heart problem or seizure of some kind, though I'm no expert at all.

 

I think it would be a good idea to make as many detailed notes as possible -- what was she doing right before the symptoms (what kind of exercise, if any, how long, etc.), outdoor temp, rectal temp if you can get it, etc. -- and take that along the video to the vet.

 

Best wishes for you and Effie that you can get this figured out and at the very least learn to manage it.

[brookitar]

Not being a vet, it looks like possible seizure activity to me. The wobbliness and rear collapse and especially the rapid eye blinking are very different from the symptoms our Ruby exhibits. Ruby has BCC. She is high drive and very active, so our biggest challenge has been to not let her overexert. Strenuous, intense exertion can bring on a collapse. Ruby goes down all the way, and suddenly. She lies on the ground and while she tries to get up, she has no motor control until she recovers, which takes a minute or so. She is then completely normal with no aftereffects. Her eyes are not glazed over, so our vet says that it isn't seizure. There are no symptoms for our vet to find. Since you say Effie is mellow and not very active, you may want a complete workup to find out why gentle activity exhausts her so much. Perhaps heart problems? Good luck.

 

Kathy Robbins

 

 

Yes I knew it was something neurological by the way her eyes twitched even before the video. Now that I have viewed videos of BCS on youtube I am seeing that those dogs are not aroused looking like Effie was behaving. Yes I need to get some blood work done on her...at a new vet that can recognize her getting so tired isn't normal. Even our neighbors who have dog play dates notice how tired she gets fast. I hope its not a congenital issue. :/

[brookitar]

I had a dog who had what I assumed was heat exhaustion a few times. He got wobbly, mentally dull uncoordinated after exercise at higher than normal temps (at one time it was only mid 70s but it was much warmer than it had been). I cooled him off immediately and he quickly went back to normal.

 

It almost appears in the video that Effie's symptoms seem to come and go just a bit. It looks a bit different than what I saw with my dog. Have you taken her temperature so you know if she's overheated? Have you deliberately cooled her off and seen an improvement in symptoms?

 

Showing the actual video to your vet may be really helpful.

 

Yes we assumed it could be heat exhaustion. Its seems strange though because her companion is fine after such a short amount of exercise and they had been resting indoors for about four hours. After the end of the video she collapsed on the ground and wouldn't get up so I carried her out to the apartment until she could walk again. I gave her water that she drank but she started coughing a lot afterwards. After about 10 minutes inside she was perfectly fine.

 

Her symptoms do come and go very quickly. Now I'm worried its happened before and maybe we didn't pay attention to it. Thankfully I finally caught an episode of hers on the phone I can finally show a vet. Now they can't brush it off and say its because she's "mellow". When these episodes happen now she starts to cry and act very frantic which I was also told was due to her breed being neurotic.

[brookitar]

I have a dog who I think has mild BCC. It's pretty mild and easily controlled by limiting intense exercise in warm weather or having swim rather than run when the weather's warm so I've never pursued an official diagnosis.

 

But I agree with the others. It doesn't look like what your dog's experiencing. I noticed the same thing Mara did, that Effie's symptoms seem to come and go. With Bodhi, and in videos I've watch of BCC (Can't remember where I saw them. Here, maybe? Or YouTube? Might be worth doing a search to watch and compare.) it's pretty consistent until the dog recovers, which is pretty even and gradual rather than the stop and start that Effie does.

 

I, too, wondered about the possibility of a heart problem or seizure of some kind, though I'm no expert at all.

 

I think it would be a good idea to make as many detailed notes as possible -- what was she doing right before the symptoms (what kind of exercise, if any, how long, etc.), outdoor temp, rectal temp if you can get it, etc. -- and take that along the video to the vet.

 

Best wishes for you and Effie that you can get this figured out and at the very least learn to manage it.

 

 

Yes I agree too. Her symptoms aren't consistent and she appears more excited than the dog's with BCS. I hope its not a heart condition.

Seeing focal/partial seizures in humans I saw some similarities with Effie. The eyes look abnormal and she appears to recover after it like nothing happened. I'm just curious to know if focal/partial seizures can affect their brain or how they act afterwards. She playfully bit a child two hours later after this was filmed. Its extremely off from her normal demeanor. I'm extremely lucky the bite was not worse and we knew the child's parents or else we probably could have been sued. I will never let her around another child again now.

 

My parents think she is just limping in the video but I see something different. I'm really glad other people do too. Now that we have a second border collie I know her behavior has sometimes been way off.

[GentleLake]

That's not just limping.

 

And I forgot to mention that it seemed to me in the photo that her eyes looks odd . . . like maybe the pupils were constricted? But maybe it could just be because her eyes seem to be a light color. Not sure.

[teresaserrano]

Don't let a vet intimidate you. You say you're young and that definitely affects how seriously a vet takes you, but you're the one who knows your dog. Trust your instincts. Worse thing that can happen is your instincts where off and there's truly nothing wrong with the dog, which is not a bad thing, on the contrary. But it doesn't look like it's the case with Effie.

 

I'm older than you, going on 50, and self assured. And I do know a thing or two about dogs, and most of all, I KNOW my dog. When I feel something is off I go to the vet and press till I have an answer. So far, I've never been wrong.

 

Last year Tess developed a bit of a cough. It was literally coughing two times, then having a vomit reflex. It lasted a few seconds and happened once a month. Then started happenning twice a month. Then a couple times a week. I also thought she tired a bit more easily that I would have expected. Lots of energy and better stamina that most dogs I know, but still. It was in no way dramatic, and otherwise she looked normal, but it was odd. So I took her to the vet and said, I know there's lots of stuff that can cause cough so let's start with a couple exams for the most common causes and go from there. She did a heart x-ray and a fecal exam and she had a parasite called ancilostome that lodges itself in the lungs. Her pulmonary artery was already a bit enlarged. Was treated, tested again, got the all clear, cough stoped and she never tires.

 

That cough was such a slight thing that it could have easily been overlooked. She didn't show the other common associated simptoms to this parasite like lethargy, lack of energy, refusal to eat, weight loss, prostration, hair loss, anemia. I think it was because she's very healthy and fit, well exercised and fed, so she was physically able to handle the parasite in a way that a lesser fit dog wouldn't be. But I trusted my instinct that something not very palpable was off and I was right. Your pup's symptoms are much less elusive, so don't accept a "Oh, it's probably nothing, just a mellow dog" for an answer.

 

I must say I do feel slightly silly having this conversation with a vet:

- My dog has a bit of a cough, I don't like it.

- Oh, is she coughing a lot?

- Nope, she coughed yesterday. Time before that was 6 days ago. And time before that was 2 weeks ago. Then a month before that.

- Oh - says the vet. And the cough, is it violent?

- Nope, just 2 short sharp coughs. That's it. (and I make the apropriate sounds to describe it). But it has been going on for a few months now.

The vet doesn't say anything, so I add:

- And I feel she gets tired faster than she should.

The vet visibily brightens and says:

- So. She is getting tired very quickly!

- Nope, says I. She has loads of energy. Outlasts every dog she plays with. Runs and jumps and plays frisbee endlessly. But. I still feel she gets tired slightly faster that she should. So we're going to start testing for things that could cause cough and tiredness.

 

I got the distinct impression that the vet run those tests solely because I wanted them done. But I was right.