Conformation question,

[geonni banner]

As usual, I'm taking pictures of my dog, and I got one (the first one) that made me look twice. She looks as though she has rather straight stifles in this pic. The second one taken at the same time, the other two at one year. (She'll be two in July - we think) When she trots, her topline tends to slope up. Is this structural or typical Border Collie carriage or both?

[SS Cressa]

She will have lesser rear drive and reach from being straighter. Could be wrong but she also looks to have a short forearm and possible a straight shoulder?

 

Troy stacked

 

at 5 months:

 

Cressa closest thing to being stacked:

 

at 6 months?:

[SS Cressa]

I should say the border collie I know normally have a decent angles the one thing that seems to be normal for most if not all border collies is that they are slightly cowhocked.

 

For agility a straight front could mean bars and the impact of jumping could make the dog more likely to get injured. And if the dog is too straight in the rear or over angulated in the rear dogs won't have as much power to get over the jumps with efficiently and more damage to the front.

[geonni banner]

She oversteps the forepaw with the hindpaw when trotting, but does not strike - I think she converges more with the front feet than the back ones. Definitely has a straight shoulder, forearm might be a bit short. Her topline is level standing, even without camping out at the back, and she sets up nice and straight naturally. Not at all cowhocked. Doesn't toe in or out. Maybe a bit wide in front for what I'm used to seeing in a "trotting" dog. She doesn't sidewind or pace.

 

 

Purely academic, but interesting, nonetheless. I wouldn't want to jump this dog a lot, but she moves easily and doesn't tire quickly. Your dogs definitely have more angulation fore and aft - good in and Agility dog especially!

 

Edited to add: Dunno why the one picture appears twice...

[border_collie_crazy]

like this?

 

 

both my BCs feet converge like that. I dont know anything about angulation and what not though just that both my BCs can go forever, and that Happy is absolutly effortless in everything she does, jumping, running whatever never gets injured and still moves like she is 3 at almost 10, Misty tends to injure herself, but I think that has more to do with going to extremes with everything lol

[border_collie_crazy]

I just noticed there is a fair bit of differnce in the way mine look vs Sugarfoot lol, oh well the extent of my knowledge is "it works or it doesnt"

[geonni banner]

I just noticed there is a fair bit of differnce in the way mine look vs Sugarfoot lol, oh well the extent of my knowledge is "it works or it doesnt"

 

Yeah, your dogs' toplines are level at the trot. Mine goes with her head down and her topline sloping down to it. All dogs (well, nearly all) tend to converge at the trot, but I've noticed in the past that the really long-legged dogs, or those with longer rear legs or a very short back tend to strike the forefoot with the rear one as it comes forward at the trot. Some dogs compensate by pacing rather than trotting (although by no means do all pacers do so to compensate for striking) Some dogs "sidewind" (trot with their body at an angle, rather than pointing straight forward, like a horse doing a side-pass.)

 

Pacing is usually viewed as a fault in the breed ring, but I've read some analysis that reckoned pacing was actually a more energy efficient way to cover ground. I've also read that among trotting horses, pacers are on average faster for longer distances than trotters. But I have yet to see a Border Collie that moves at a pace, rather than a trot - whereas it's rather common in the Lassie Collie and the Shetland Sheepdog. Anybody out there have a natural pacing Border Collie?

 

When I watch video of Border Collies working sheep, I notice that they do tend to move with their heads down and their butts a bit higher than their shoulders, but they also as a rule, seem to have greater angulation than my girl does. They also seem to keep their legs well under them, and carry themselves close to the ground at slower speeds. I know there is a lot of conformational variation in this breed, and unless the conformation is extremely bad they all seem to work as well, for as long, regardless.

 

I looked at a video (in the "Training & Trialing Videos" section of the Boards) of a dog named Stella today. It was her first exposure to sheep (Well done, Stella!) and I was struck by the fact that she nearly always moved at a canter, rather than trot, and that her body, head and tail carriage seem high. I wondered if this was because she was very excited - a first time with sheep would seem pretty exciting - or if this will be her usual way of going.

[SS Cressa]

If the dog is balance it feet should meet in the middle. Not overlapping(which I think would mean too long of legs/to short of body) or not meet at all(which could mean short legs/ too long of body)

 

It sound like your dog could have a ewe neck. I know alot of times when the dog is straight up front they don't have enough muscle in their neck to "hold their head up" and walk. I think in agility it could turn into back issue but don't know. I am pretty sure it would put a lot of stress on the front tho.

 

Other then it might not "look pretty" don't know if it would be an issue or could turn into an issue.

 

Never can get that nice side gait. They see me pull out the camera and they either show me their butts and run to grab a toy then lay down or just stare at me. I think its a test to see who will win. So far they are winning by a landslide.

 

I have angle gaits but since its at an angle it can be look right but not be right.

 

Video of Troy gaiting 9 months:

 

Troy at 7.5 months gaiting no where near as pretty as 9 months since he was still in growning stage:

[border_collie_crazy]

what exactly is Pacing?

[SS Cressa]

what exactly is Pacing?

 

This video shows the different:

 

or that is my understanding of pacing.

[geonni banner]

what exactly is Pacing?

 

Pacing is a lateral gait - the legs on one side of the body move forward and then the the legs on the other side go - (like a camel). In a trot, the left foreleg moves forward with right hind leg, and the the right foreleg moves forward with the left hind leg.

 

When a dog is pacing, viewed from above, the body from shoulder to hip often noticeably arcs from side to side. Something like what you see when you look down at a fish swimming.

[juliepoudrier]

Shayna's dogs look well-balanced at the trot to me, although SS Cressa would say that they apparently have legs that are too long for their bodies? I generally look at dogs (or horses) whose hind feet track well up into the path of the front feet as having good movement at the trot, since that sort of tracking would imply that the dog is using its rearend well for propulsion, with the back acting like a spring.

 

Pip trotting while flanking around sheep:

 

Nick trotting while flanking around sheep:

 

I think Phoebe was slowing from trot to walk in this photo:

 

Kat is walking here, but it's a good picture of a border collie in a working crouch:

 

Twist trotting on a flank, showing lateral movement as she bends:

 

Lark trotting:

 

And another photo of Nick, going from canter to trot:

 

Sorry, but I don't think I have any good standing side views of anyone....

 

Okay, I did find a side (nearly) shot of Phoebe standing:

 

J.

[Lewis Moon]

Cerb is part Lab so all bets are off....

He is cowhocked, sidewinds, trots head down and has longer back legs. He converges at a trot but does not strike. He is also a bit "duck footed" up front in comparison to other dogs (not a lot of BCs in the immediate area).

 

He also can run like stink and he seems to love it.

 

Here is a side shot at 6 mos.

[muttlycrew]

I looked at a video (in the "Training & Trialing Videos" section of the Boards) of a dog named Stella today. It was her first exposure to sheep (Well done, Stella!)

 

Thank you. Here is a semi-decent side shot of Stella. Btw Julie, I LOVE Twist...

 

[juliepoudrier]

^^When I watched your video, Stella reminded me a bit of Twist (actually more Nick, who is a Twist son), which is why I asked about her breeding. (Actually, Nick, Pip, and Phoebe are littermates, and Lark is the daughter of a 3/4 sister to Twist.) The only unrelated dog in all those photos is Kat (who, incidentally, has rather odd conformation, but is still quite sound and working well at age 10).

 

J.

[geonni banner]

julie poudrier

 

Shayna's dogs look well-balanced at the trot to me, although SS Cressa would say that they apparently have legs that are too long for their bodies? I generally look at dogs (or horses) whose hind feet track well up into the path of the front feet as having good movement at the trot, since that sort of tracking would imply that the dog is using its rear end well for propulsion, with the back acting like a spring.

 

Pip trotting while flanking around sheep:

 

Nick trotting while flanking around sheep:

 

Both of these dogs look like beautiful movers to me - I think of it as "bicycle" movement - the fore and hind assemblies working in beautiful harmony.

 

All the rest look good to me, but the first two look great. Real "daisy-clippers" - no wasted movement, but great style!

 

Okay, I did find a side (nearly) shot of Phoebe standing:

 

So cute! Those ears!

 

Long legs don't need to be a hindrance, but my Lurcher, who was rather short-backed as well as long-legged looked like she had "a load in her pants" going away from you at the trot. Her hind legs tracked about 14" apart! But she could run 35MPH and had tons of stamina.

 

Sugarfoot is handy and I've never known her to go sore on the forehand, despite her conformational shortcomings. But then she's a Border Collie, I don't think she would show it if she was dead lame!

[SS Cressa]

Shayna's dogs look well-balanced at the trot to me, although SS Cressa would say that they apparently have legs that are too long for their bodies? I generally look at dogs (or horses) whose hind feet track well up into the path of the front feet as having good movement at the trot, since that sort of tracking would imply that the dog is using its rearend well for propulsion, with the back acting like a spring.

 

J.

 

 

The first dog might have too long of legs for it body but the movement looks beautiful from the snap shot. Love the reach and power in the rear and front. I love how the 1 dog is moving althought I think the second would be lable as balance.

 

For me: you can't tell a dogs structure from a pix if its working sheep or playing herding games.

[juliepoudrier]

Geonni,

Interesting observation about the first two dogs. Those two are very upright workers (little or no style) compared to the rest of the dogs pictured. I wonder if that fact influences what you observe about those dogs. I will try to get a standing side view photo of a couple of them today when I have someone here to help take pictures.

 

Personally, I think Pip (dog #1) is very well put together. Nick (dog #2) is tall and narrow, but everything about him is proportional. As I said earlier, the one dog who is oddly built is Kat, and yet that oddness has never affected her health as a worker, and you can see that she presents a very pretty picture when working.

 

For me: you can't tell a dogs structure from a pix if its working sheep or playing herding games.

I have no idea what this means? Care to elaborate? Are you saying it would be easier to judge the conformation of a dog trotting around a show ring vs. trotting around sheep in a field? And I really have no idea what "playing herding games" means.

 

J.

[Maralynn]

My personal preference would be a dog that is slightly longer in the leg. Missy has longer legs and she moves very easy

 

Kipp has more "appropriate" sized legs. He's not nearly as graceful as Miss is. His stamina isn't as good either

 

This is an old picture - he has bulked up in the front just a bit

 

 

FWIW, Kipp is a bit more stylish on sheep than Missy

[geonni banner]

"Interesting observation about the first two dogs. Those two are very upright workers (little or no style) compared to the rest of the dogs pictured. I wonder if that fact influences what you observe about those dogs. I will try to get a standing side view photo of a couple of them today when I have someone here to help take pictures.

 

Personally, I think Pip (dog #1) is very well put together. Nick (dog #2) is tall and narrow, but everything about him is proportional. As I said earlier, the one dog who is oddly built is Kat, and yet that oddness has never affected her health as a worker, and you can see that she presents a very pretty picture when working."

JP

 

Looking at the pictures again I see Kat as the classic silhouette of a working Border Collie. The first two dogs are nicely balanced to my eye, but have more - I dunno - stretch in their way of going. The others have what I would call "collection", if they were horses, which makes sense in a stock dog, because they need to be able to make rapid changes in direction and speed. Sort of like the difference between a cutting horse and a Thoroughbred.

 

As I was writing this I realized that I'm used to evaluating movement in a breed-ring setting where the dogs are gaited at a fast trot, whether it most exemplifies that breed's way of going or not. They usually have their heads elevated unnaturally to make them flashy, and to pull up the front action to make them flashier still. This may be a natural way of going for a Miniature Pinscher, but not a Border Collie - or even an Irish Setter!

 

It's really coming into focus for me that there is not necessarily a ""correct" conformation type per se for Border Collies. It seems to me that it's all about balance and proportion for each individual dog. Different types have different styles of working and so different ways of going. I suppose temperament plays a part too.

 

Based on this I would guess that while Pip and Nick may or may not have similar ability as workers, I would think that Pip was "handier" and quicker than Nick, and tended to work closer. Is that right? Or completely off?

[geonni banner]

My personal preference would be a dog that is slightly longer in the leg. Missy has longer legs and she moves very easy

 

Kipp has more "appropriate" sized legs. He's not nearly as graceful as Miss is. His stamina isn't as good either

 

This is an old picture - he has bulked up in the front just a bit

 

FWIW, Kipp is a bit more stylish on sheep than Missy

 

It looks to me as if Missy has more angulation than Kipp, and Kipp seems to have more timber. Also Missy looks to me as if her hocks are more let down. I bet she can turn on a dime!

[juliepoudrier]

Okay, here are some side shots of all the dogs except Nick (he's not mine), plus Jill. None of these photos are great because my dogs are not used to being asked to stand straight and still for a photo shoot, so you'll have to deal with the little oddities, including the slight downhill slope on which they're standing and the sometimes slight angle of the shots.

 

Pip:

 

Twist:

 

Lark (she's a bit crouched; we couldn't get her to stand straight up):

 

Phoebe:

 

Kat:

 

Jill (a retired open trial dog, who is severly dysplastic):

 

J.

[juliepoudrier]

And how could I have forgotten Ranger, 9 months old (he's standing funny on his left front because he hurt his pad):

 

J.

[geonni banner]

Thanks so much! This is really interesting. I see that all these dogs have a nice arch over the loin. And all have much better angulation than my girl. Also interesting is the amount the hocks are let down on each dog. And I love those feet.

 

Twist looks almost like a ACD to me - partly because of the ear set and ticking, but the length-to-height ratio is more square. A real powerhouse looking dog.

 

Pip is still my favorite conformation-wise, but Pheobe is totally the cutest!

 

I have to go someplace this morning, but I want to come back later and really study these photos. Thanks again for going to the trouble to shoot and post all these!

[juliepoudrier]

[Looking at the pictures again I see Kat as the classic silhouette of a working Border Collie. The first two dogs are nicely balanced to my eye, but have more - I dunno - stretch in their way of going. The others have what I would call "collection", if they were horses, which makes sense in a stock dog, because they need to be able to make rapid changes in direction and speed. Sort of like the difference between a cutting horse and a Thoroughbred.

 

I think that could be an artifact of the photos and not necessarily completely indicative of their normal way of moving. In both of those pictures, the dogs are flanking at a trot and so are stretching out to cover ground. Especially in the picture of Pip--you can see from the angle of the shot that he is doing an off-balance inside flank, which means he's got to cover a lot of territory to get around to balance (the sheep's heads) and I've asked him to go slow (because I was trying to get nice photos).

 

In the photo of Twist, I caught her on a tighter flank with a front view, which shows the lovely cross over of her legs as she turns and moves forward at the same time (think of a dressage horse doing a shoulder in on a circle or similar).

 

Kat is a straight on driving shot, where she's just pushing the sheep from behind--a shot where you're most likely to catch that stylish look.

 

As I was writing this I realized that I'm used to evaluating movement in a breed-ring setting where the dogs are gaited at a fast trot, whether it most exemplifies that breed's way of going or not. They usually have their heads elevated unnaturally to make them flashy, and to pull up the front action to make them flashier still. This may be a natural way of going for a Miniature Pinscher, but not a Border Collie - or even an Irish Setter!

 

And of course when the dogs are working, it's not all that typical for them to trot on a flank; more often they would trot on the fetch or while driving.

 

Here's a photo of Twist taking off on an outrun--full out:

 

And a front view of Kat at that same trial, where you can see how wide her chest is and how her elbows sort of stick out:

 

Kat also tends to be a little high in the rear, but as you saw in the earlier photo, she can be quite stylish. And she's faster than a speeding bullet. Probably Phoebe is the only other one of my dogs who's that fast (flyball people drool over her).

 

It's really coming into focus for me that there is not necessarily a ""correct" conformation type per se for Border Collies. It seems to me that it's all about balance and proportion for each individual dog. Different types have different styles of working and so different ways of going. I suppose temperament plays a part too.

 

Exactly. Nick is tall and thin, but it all comes together to make a nice picture when he's working. Pip weighs the same as Nick but is a good couple inches shorter (and correspondingly broader). But both dogs move nicely, IMO.

 

Based on this I would guess that while Pip and Nick may or may not have similar ability as workers, I would think that Pip was "handier" and quicker than Nick, and tended to work closer. Is that right? Or completely off?

 

Neither dog tends to work closer than the other--how close they work depends entirely on the sheep. If the sheep are very light and flighty, both dogs would work way off them, but if they are heavy and slow, both dogs would tend to work up closer. I don't think that Pip is better at turning on a dime compared to Nick, but if Laura were online she might be a better one to answer that question since Nick is hers. Interestingly, of all these dogs, Phoebe is the one who needs to stay the furthest back off stock, because she tends to unsettle stock and needs to stay back (in general) so as not to upset them. Kat has a similar effect, though in Kat's case, I think it's her quickness that unsettles stock, whereas with Phoebe, I think the stock sense something of a "loose cannon."

 

Lark has the most eye of any of them and tends to be quite clappy. Twist's eye can slow her down a bit, but she can move anything.

 

As far as working style is considered, dogs with more eye will tend to be more stylish (crouchy) all the way down the spectrum to a dog like Lark who will actually scoot along the ground rather than get up (which really isn't a good thing). So to compare Twist with Pip, if both are walking into a sheep that is facing them off, Twist will lower her front end and walk up on the sheep while Pip (and Nick too) will tend to stand up taller as he approaches the same sheep. It's a working style that has nothing to do with structure really, but more to do with eye, IMO.

 

I don't know if that really answered your questions.

 

J.