puppies and learning

[Maralynn]

I've never had a puppy (hoping to remedy that one of these years...) but every time I've added a new dog I've taken several weeks to form a relationship and build a foundation for training. With Kipp and Kenzi it took about 6 months to feel like things were really clicking between us.

 

After reading some of the recent threads about puppy training, I'm wondering what normal for a puppy is? I know they're little sponges and pick things up quicker and by nature they're most likely much more in tune to the person. But I've always kind of assumed that working with a pup would be like working with a toddler (have had lots of experience with them!!) you play with them, providing learning opportunities in everyday life, have a few short training sessions throughout the day (like 2 minutes here and 2 minutes there), but at the same time don't expect too much because they're quite young. If they turn out to be a genius, great, but if if they're not quite at that level don't worry too much because it will all click eventually.

 

So what do you expect from a pup?

[G. Festerling]

Funny that you posted this. In light of the recent posts I have been stunned a bit myself.

 

Many, many years ago I expected nothing from my pups. Then my dog idol pointed out some things to me that made me rethink! Now, just telling me something usually is not enough. I want to see and I did in his young dogs.

 

Now, many years later I found that most things a pup needs to know are "trained/introduced" during normal life with a small amount of actual structured training thrown in. To in a way, explain what "no, come, it's name, etc." mean so that I can use them while getting them to quit chasing the cats, get out from under foot or whatever during "normal" life. Of course this does require the pup to be around and not as an afterthough but with a fair amount of focus from the owner. To make sure the guidance is consistent as much as possible. Potty training being one example.

 

A few years ago a friend started her 6 week old Mal pup with clickertraining from the start. By 10 weeks he had a pretty much focused heel (I swore he was going to have a deformed neck from all that craning his head back and up!) and was able to almost pass a basic ob routine. He was very happy and bold. But to me, he also got bored down the road. Almost like it held no joy or as I like to look at it as magic in the work with his handler.

 

So I expect mine at this point to come reliably, sit, maybe down and have a basic concept of no. Some play and conditioning for tricks just because I do believe that it builds their little minds and teaches me about them. If a pup offers a bit of focus or something more than I am asking, I will take it and play with it. After that, all else is playeducation for quite a while.

 

Now full disclosure requires for me to point out that my current youngster is so not at all there simply due to me restrictions on time currently and a very stubborn streak on his part. Silly boy!!! Wait, silly me!!!

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

These days I do less training but more expecting. It's pretty easy to integrate most dogs, including puppies, into a dog rational, mannerly pack, The new one does what the old ones do and really don't need to be "taught" every single trick (Sit, heel, fetch, walk quietly on lead, don't poop in the house etc). One trains for mannerliness by expecting mannerliness and being unwilling to settle for lies.

 

I'm beginning to think that something like expectations plays a part in sheepdog training too. The other week my painfully timid 6 year old Peg came into the small ring for the second time (first time she didn't wanna). She's never been trained to mannerliness or sheep work but I can take her into the vet off lead and in the small ring she took every command and on the same day she did her first fetch she did her first drive.

 

No, she'll never be a trial dog: too little too late. But it interests me how much she has learned about working sheep off sheep just being here amongst sheepdog expectations.

 

Second time in a small ring she was nearly a "started" dog.

 

I believe in the value of training - whatever method you prefer - but am beginning to wonder if the main value of training is teaching the human what to justly expect from the dog.

 

Donald McCaig

[JohnLloydJones]

One trains for mannerliness by expecting mannerliness and being unwilling to settle for lies.

Ah yes, that is so true.

[juliepoudrier]

Funny that you posted this. In light of the recent posts I have been stunned a bit myself.

Ha ha! I almost posted a comment about "Tiger Moms" to one of those threads and then decided that it would be wiser to keep my mouth shut. I'm beginning to wonder if puppies are allowed to be puppies anymore. I'm not advocating not training, but why the rush to have a dog apparently fully obedience trained between 8 and 12 weeks old? Is it some sort of competition of which I'm not aware? Ego? Keeping up with the Joneses?

 

I wonder if it's an artifact of the oft-espoused belief that border collies require a ton of time, attention, and mental stimulation (if not exercise)? Like Donald, there are some things I never specifically train a puppy as an individual. Kes has learned "That'll do" from the behavior of the older dogs when I say that to them. Recalls are easy to train for a puppy that's part of a pack (granted, not everybody has a pack to help them train pups), but it seems to me that many owners are expecting behaviors that are more likely to be obtained with youngsters that are a little more mature and who have an attention span that's a little longer than that of a gnat.

 

Nothing gives me greater joy than seeing a puppy (or a child) simply enjoying life. I can't imagine putting a pup in boot camp the minute it enters my life (well, except for crate training boot camp and don't kill the chickens boot camp! ).

 

I mentioned on one of those lie down threads how long it took Kes to get it. I didn't fret that she was stupid or willful or that I was a failure as a trainer. I just didn't drill it, because I knew that sooner or later it would click. Whatever happened to patience?

 

Okay, I'm done ranting now.

 

ETA: Mara, that's my long-winded way of saying I agree with you.

 

 

J.

[ChantalB]

My thoughts are if you didn't train it you have no right to expect it. Yes, BCs pick things up like crazy, and sometimes you ask something you never trained and they do it, but you've got to reinforce that behavior, apply it to numerous situations, etc, before you just expect them to do it. It's no fair if you don't.

 

My biggest thing that I always will teach puppies is confidence. I want them to know the sky isn't the limit, and they can do anything (obviously within the "rules" I set). I want a dog that Doesn't shut down, that isn't scared of failure and will try anything I ask of him. I want a dog to keep his working brain and not be a slave to my directions, have the ability to think for themselves.

 

Jude is my first puppy and for him I set up many  mini "obstacle courses" made up of everything and anything for the puppy to touch, climb, "jump" (like ankle height) with scary wings, go under, play with. Different materials and surfaces, tippy things.

 

I always wanted to do agility with him from the start but I had never done it myself so I didn't know any of the fancy things (there was a waitlist and we didn't start pre agility till a week before he turned two!). But I googled things, tried to understand them and taught them in my own way. I also taught him to free lunge like a horse ( distance shadow handling??) that foundation works amazing for our gamblers lol.

 

You have to "train" a puppy from the start, but I take after Susan GArretts motto (and I'm sure many people have done before her) that "work=play and play=work" that way everything is fun! So yes I do a lot of training because my second biggest pet peeve, (first Bering people yanking their dogs around) is people who expect their dogs to do something they weren't trained to do and then get mad (frustrated, angry, resentful, dismayed, etc) when the dog doesn't perform.

 

Best to do it right away and use those little sponge brains to your advantage. It's a delicate line of how to do it though as to not spoil their work ethic. Formal training sessions last not long at all, mostly we go out to play and do tricks in between and learn new skills. He went/goes everywhere I can bring him with me, and new places have different rules to follow, so that wax training there. There were treat bowls all around the house so I could randomly teach or ask things of him, then go on with our day. Were best buddies I think , and that came from forming a solid relationship from day one.

[Urban Borders]

Guess we're all products of our experience. The first BC and first dog I got was a female BC puppy with the intelligence typical of the breed, an independent streak a mile wide, and more confidence than you could shake a stick at. You could yell at this dog til you're blue in the face, even use corporal punishment, and she'd give you a sassy bark and run as fast as she could after the toy she'd wanted in the first place. When people meet her now, they say "aw, geez, she's a good agility dog," or, if they're not dog people, "wow, she's so well-behaved." Then the people who know what they're talking about say "BUT wow, she sure is a brat."

 

I had no relationship with her until she was a year and a half, because I did not tell her what to do (only what not to do) and didn't set any effective boundaries. Other than keeping her on a line or in a kennel there were no ways to set effective boundaries, because she was long line wise, was completely impervious to punishment, and she KNEW she was faster than I was. I had to convince her that we were teammates by making it the best option from her perspective.

 

With a new pup, I don't want to make the same mistake. For Mer, "just being a puppy" included good things, like playing and running around the yard and sniffing. In the natural order of things, it also included things like not coming when called, jumping up, and nipping. I'm not the biggest fan of puppies, because they have the attention span of a peanut, forget a gnat. Two minutes training sessions is the max, and throwing training in to get what you want in daily life (the door open, a potato chip, out of your crate) is preferable.

 

But I absolutely want (not necessarily expect, that's not possible on day one) my puppy to be house-trained, to not jump up, to not nip, and to be friendly towards other people and dogs. I would like to place a foundation for all the commands that are essential to daily life, as well (the recall being the most important of these). If today he's forgotten how to sit, or doesn't bring the toy back, then oh well, so what. I'm not going to get mad at him about it, or be embarrassed. It just means we have something to play/practice tonight before we go to bed. And I hope, that when he grows up a little, he'll view me a teammate and a source of all good things, instead of a taskmaster that can be ignored and circumvented.

[Kelleybean]

"Nothing gives me greater joy than seeing a puppy (or a child) simply enjoying life. I can't imagine putting a pup in boot camp the minute it enters my life (well, except for crate training boot camp and don't kill the chickens boot camp! )."

 

 

 

ITA! I was thinking, this is kinda like the over-zealous mom that enrolls their toddler in violin, gymnastics and dance lessons before they are three years old. A little training--great, but be careful not to overdo it and burn the tyke (or pup) out.

[Carson Crazies]

I just let 'em run amok and hope for the best. No, not really.

 

I let puppies be puppies and most stuff sorts itself out in the wash. *shrug*

 

I don't do formal "training sessions" with puppies (and when I refer to puppies I'm referring to 8 week old puppies - once they get to be 14 weeks old or so I introduce some more formal stuff). I take puppies swimming and hiking and playing. They learn most things as a matter of course, or by modeling the big dogs. It works. When I call dogs I get all of my dogs, puppies included. Shoot, if I'm at Julie P's house and call dogs I get mine AND hers... and vice versa. It works out just fine.

 

I figure they have plenty of time for real training pressure when they're grown up and ready for it.

 

That's not to say that I don't quietly shape them to be good citizens - I do! But it's a much more relaxed and fluid process, and they wind up being nice dogs to be around. They know lots of stuff too. But I don't ask for it at 8 weeks old. At 8 weeks old I like to see them chase butterflies and splash in the water. Most of the training I do is in context of living our lives together, and often neither the pup nor I realize it's training.

 

I have expectations and set boundaries, but I also understand that it will take time for them to understand these things.

 

Hakuna matata baby.

[scullywags]

My puppy is being taught to sit at the door to go out for potty and not leap from the crate like a wild beast and chase me and the toy all around

just for our play time stuff but 95% of the time hes allowed to be a beasty pup investigating a learning the world its such fun to see them "find things" for the 1st time

 

he will be pup only once he has his entire life to learn my agility game

I do see lots of very young IMO dogs competing I guess to each there own but as with fine wine I will take my time.

[Tiga's_mom]

This is very interesting. I guess we've been doing a combination of training/letting her be a puppy. We limit training time to a few minutes here and there. She is learning a lot from Tiga I've noticed. He's not very alpha at all, so he very rarely even growls at her, let alone snaps, but if she's not pestering him she just wants to mimic him. All of your thoughts are very insightful. Great topic for someone like me that wants to learn.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

I wrote:"One trains for mannerliness by expecting mannerliness and being unwilling to settle for lies."

 

Perhaps in response, Ms/Mr Chantal writes: "My thoughts are if you didn't train it you have no right to expect it. Yes, BCs pick things up like crazy, and sometimes you ask something you never trained and they do it, but you've got to reinforce that behavior, apply it to numerous situations, etc, before you just expect them to do it. It's no fair if you don't.'

 

Which makes somewhat different assumptions than I do. I assume going in that dogs/puppies wish to belong to my stable, sensible dog pack and that it's their job to learn how. I assume that though other interests may temporarily dominate their attention at any moment (food, sex, play, nuttiness) the desire to be a respected pack member is a low grade constant.

 

If I am clear about what is expected and respond to their mistakes gently and patiently, I needn't bother training them. They figure it out.

 

I am not against training. Au contraire. I believe that for most people training is the only way they can learn to understand what's going on with their dog and what they can justly expect. The dog might learn some things too.

 

Some years ago I walked June to the agility demo at the Rural Hill SDT. The nice people offered to teach her how to jump through the tire, go through the tunnel, climb the ramp and balance on the dog walk. They said I should put her on lead and offer her treats. June was rarely on a lead and never had a treat in her life.

 

I said, "Why don't I just ask her to do it."

 

After I explained to June just what I wanted she said OK and managed each obstacle without confusion or fuss. Were we suddenly agility competitors? Of course not. Did June need to be "trained" to walk through an agility course? Of course not. If weird old Donald wanted her to do it, why not?

 

Another time I met the dogs at the oddlot luggage at Charles DeGaulle. I had two sheepdogs, two enormous (500) crates, a duffel a carryon and a spindly little luggage cart. So I set one crate on the cart and asked June to get back in (she'd already been crated for 12 hours). She did. I stacked the second crate atop the first and asked Luke to jump into it (he'd never jumped up into a crate before). He jumped. I then bucked my duffle atop the heap and rolled precariously toward the rental car counter. "M'sieu, M'sieu! You will need a bigger car!"

 

I am not clever enough to train dogs. I haven't time to train them. I expect them to be good citizens of our expansive, complex, shared world and so long as I am, they are.

 

Donald McCaig.

[terrecar]

Wow, never had a puppy?! I would personally be pleased to hear that more often, since so many people want puppies until they actually become dogs (then dump the dog at a shelter).

 

My focus with a puppy is getting it out there and socialized, and building varied experiences and confidence. Unfortunately, I'm not the gregarious sort, so this is "work" to me (people make me tired), but it isn't without its pleasures. I do love to get out and about with my dog.

[ChantalB]

Dear Doggers,

 

I wrote:"One trains for mannerliness by expecting mannerliness and being unwilling to settle for lies."

 

Perhaps in response, Ms/Mr Chantal writes: "My thoughts are if you didn't train it you have no right to expect it. Yes, BCs pick things up like crazy, and sometimes you ask something you never trained and they do it, but you've got to reinforce that behavior, apply it to numerous situations, etc, before you just expect them to do it. It's no fair if you don't.'

 

Which makes somewhat different assumptions than I do. I assume going in that dogs/puppies wish to belong to my stable, sensible dog pack and that it's their job to learn how. I assume that though other interests may temporarily dominate their attention at any moment (food, sex, play, nuttiness) the desire to be a respected pack member is a low grade constant.

 

If I am clear about what is expected and respond to their mistakes gently and patiently, I needn't bother training them. They figure it out.

 

I am not against training. Au contraire. I believe that for most people training is the only way they can learn to understand what's going on with their dog and what they can justly expect. The dog might learn some things too.

 

Some years ago I walked June to the agility demo at the Rural Hill SDT. The nice people offered to teach her how to jump through the tire, go through the tunnel, climb the ramp and balance on the dog walk. They said I should put her on lead and offer her treats. June was rarely on a lead and never had a treat in her life.

 

I said, "Why don't I just ask her to do it."

 

After I explained to June just what I wanted she said OK and managed each obstacle without confusion or fuss. Were we suddenly agility competitors? Of course not. Did June need to be "trained" to walk through an agility course? Of course not. If weird old Donald wanted her to do it, why not?

 

Another time I met the dogs at the oddlot luggage at Charles DeGaulle. I had two sheepdogs, two enormous (500) crates, a duffel a carryon and a spindly little luggage cart. So I set one crate on the cart and asked June to get back in (she'd already been crated for 12 hours). She did. I stacked the second crate atop the first and asked Luke to jump into it (he'd never jumped up into a crate before). He jumped. I then bucked my duffle atop the heap and rolled precariously toward the rental car counter. "M'sieu, M'sieu! You will need a bigger car!"

 

I am not clever enough to train dogs. I haven't time to train them. I expect them to be good citizens of our expansive, complex, shared world and so long as I am, they are.

 

Donald McCaig.

 

But I believe you fundamentally understand dogs and behavior I was thinking more of the lines of pet/sport people expecting high degrees of behavior performed anywhere and everywhere when they haven't been trained. "my dog won't come back to me when were at the park an is chasing squirrels instead" well have you ever trained your dog to ignore the squirrels and have you given them a reason to want to be with you??

 

I always wondered how it would be with multiple dogs, pack like, with the training of new puppies. I always assumed the older dogs would show the young ones the ropes of "how to be".

 

With training puppies it's also a good idea to know what to want in the future.

[D'Elle]

My intention with a puppy is to train the pup to respond correctly to as many cues (or commands, if you will) as possible. I would start training from the first day I brought home an 8 week old puppy.

 

But I would do this because I couldn't resist doing it: it is simply what I do with dogs. And I do that because for me it is a very fun activity.It is play. Of course, for it to be fun for me, it must be fun for the dog, too. If that means training sessions are less than one minute long at first, no problem. We stop or move on to something else if it isn't fun. The actual training takes up a fraction of the puppy's day, and is scattered throughout the day's activities. Much of it is just as Mr. McCaig says, being clear about what is expected in order to be a member of the family pack.

 

But I don't think training specific behaviors is any less fun for the puppy than tugging or fetching or running about, if the training is done properly. And by properly I mean short sessions, positive training (I use clicker), great rewards (not always meaning food) and an atmosphere of fun and joyfulness. I think there are great benefits to doing things this way, not the least of which is having a dog who knows that giving you attention and doing things you ask is fun more often than not.

D'Elle

[MrSnappy]

I love working with little puppy minds with a clicker - they are so much fun to work with and pick up so much so quickly. The more of a foundation you give them, the more they are going to offer and the more they like to work with you on complicated stuff over time. Dexter practically stands on his head when I bust out the clicker, because we began working on basics and fun stuff as soon as I brought him home at 8 weeks-ish and it has made an impression.

 

However, and having said that, I am not a "life skills" clicker trainer. I don't teach everything with a clicker, and I employ the use of corrections. My dogs understand both consequence and reward. If anything, I wish I was a little more positive with my dogs but I am easily frustrated / quick tempered and there are so damn many of them milling about ;-) I am not permissive, and there are only certain things I really require from them, so those are the things I concentrate on. But too, I am not a one puppy / two dog owner - new puppies come into a pack of dogs, so I don't hyperfocus on my pups and they spend a lot of time just being puppies and figuring out how to not get eaten by TWooie.

 

I made certain to socialize my last puppies up the wazzoo - I took them to the local strip malls with a pocket full of weiners and asked every stranger I came across to feed and pet them. Being stranger friendly is very, very important to me, in my dogs. Nothing is more tiresome than a fear-aggressive / fearful with strangers dog. I err on the side of caution, and I have a pack of very people loving dogs.

 

If you're the sort of owner who only needs or wants your dog to accomplish certain things, you're going to raise your dog one way. If you're someone who really enjoys challenging yourself and your dog, and likes a dog who offeres you behaviours, you're going to train another way. But I wish everyone would socialize their dogs. I have taken in so many fearful / aggressive dogs in rescue over the last 15 years, with very minimal success in retraining / rehabbing those behaviours that I not only no longer take those dogs in, but I have begun to really resent people who don't socialize their puppies.

 

RDM

[SecretBC]

I clickered the snot out of Secret starting her second day with me. She was my first border collie and I'd seen about a million YouTube videos of awesome tricks these dogs could do, so it was my goal to turn Secret into one of those way cool trick dogs and play with that until she was old enough to do agility.

 

Hindsight being what it is, I wish I would have spent more time playing with her. Installing toy drive vs. building her natural food drive higher. She is a very, very, very thoughtful dog and internalizes a lot. Had I known better, I would have tried to bring out her wild side earlier.

 

Now, I know a LOT of dogs who had extensive early clicker/trick work and they are the driviest dogs on the planet. With the next puppy I will simply try to be more mindful of these characteristics and focus more on goofy play vs. structured training time. And I will use food rewards as little as possible.

 

The nice bonus of all the clicker/trick work that I did is that I'm able to use those tricks to build her up at trials now and get her to stop stressing about everything. Still would prefer she tug, though.

[Root Beer]

My whole approach to what I expect of a new dog in my household has changed radically over the last 6 years. Dean really did go through a rigorous process (reinforcement based, but highly structured and goal oriented) foundation training when we first adopted him. In many ways he benefited from that, although if I had it to do over, I would have chosen to do things at a much slower pace. Tessa's experience was the polar opposite. Before we even progressed to behaviors like sit, stay, etc., we started with basics that were even far more basic than that (how to play games with treats, mat work, whiplash turns, how to interact with things like jump bars, targeting, massage, etc). Granted, her situation made it necessary that I take steps that make babysteps look huge, but I also found that I was just less intent on her learning what I wanted her to know on any certain timeframe. My attitude really was, "work at her pace and it will all fall into place". And I think it was much, much better, and she is a better sport partner because of it.

 

With a future puppy, that is more the approach that I will take. I will start with the kinds of things that I did with Tessa, and progress to tricks and games before starting in on the kinds of behaviors that we typically think of starting with. Of course, within that context, those things will be well on their way to being trained. No particular timeframe. We'll get there when we get there. And the pace - the puppy and I will set that together.

 

Socialization will be part of it, house manners and structures will be part of it (crating, house training, mealtime manners, etc), time for the puppy to just be a puppy will be a part of it, fun with tricks and games and interaction with objects and surfaces will be part of it, and super basic self control foundation exercises (like intro to the mat, LAT, and GMAB) will be part of it. Introduction to the clicker and clicker games will be part of it. Regular life things will be a part of it. Ample opportunity to learn from my older dogs (whoever is left at that point) will be part of it.

 

If I had added a puppy 6 years ago, I would have been very timeframe and goal oriented, as I was with Dean. But now I think I see a bigger picture and would just take things a lot slower, and I would see training as part of the whole more than something to focus a lot on in and of itself.

[olivehill]

My expectations -- believe it or not since this is obviously, at least in part, about a thread I started -- are very close to Donald's. I expect them to be good pack members -- don't bicker, relieve themselves in the appropriate place, don't destroy things, take direction. On an across the board basis, that's about it. But I do expect those things from a pretty young age. Once they settle in -- after a few weeks -- they're expected to start getting into the swing of things. I've never had one not be able to do so.

 

Above and beyond that, each dog just has expectations that are specific to his or her job. For instance, the companion dog whose job it is to be a good ride-along partner has different expectations than the two farm dogs whose jobs are to hold down the fort, find and hold varmint, alert us to visitors, and protect the family if the need arises. Both are expected to do as they're asked regardless of their job description, too, but I don't tend to emphasize the things outside their jobs. I find most of those things are learned in daily life, just by having them do the job. The companion dog learns to load and unload on cue simply by loading and unloading as a part of going places, not because you take it out there and spend ten minutes teaching it to load/unload, for instance. The farm dogs, on the other hand, don't load/unload on cue because it's not expected of them -- since their job is at home and they very rarely travel -- but if I take them out there and show them what I want, they do it... because that's part of being a good pack member.

 

Now all that said, the few "artificial" behaviors I do train, things that don't necessarily happen organically just by living life, but that they will need to know for their job I do tend to train at a young age. I don't think it's ever really been a conscious decision or expectation, like I want them knowing xyz by a certain age. I just find it easier to work with puppies, not the least of the reasons for which is that they require more attention and supervision anyway so if I'm going to stand there and watch him or her run around the yard or kitchen I may as well make the time productive. He or she runs around a bit, I call them over, good dog. Runs around some more, call them over and have them sit, good dog. Runs around some more, see if they'll sit from a distance, good dog... or not. And so on and so forth. I think people tend to read too much into something simple and this may be one of those things. Just because someone is teaching a pup to sit or lie down or whatever -- okay, elaborate tricks that have no practical use may be an exception -- doesn't mean they're spending a bunch of time with some kind of structured lesson plan or with a certain age goal in mind.

[juliepoudrier]

My gripe isn't with teaching puppies things (I don't like ill-mannered puppies running amok any more than I like ill-mannered children doing the same). I teach them things from an early age: sit, recall, don't jump up, what a correction is<--and by correction I mean a verbal correction like "no" or "ah ah," and the presence of cats, chickens, and geriatric dogs provides plenty of opportunity to train those corrections. I also teach lie down, but if the pup doesn't get it right away, I don't drill it. I may not even practice it every day. I just occasionally ask for it and see what I get. The same holds true for tricks like shake or sit up or roll over. I train those latter things not because I care if my dog knows how to do them, but because it allows for fun one-on-one time. I don't use a clicker, but Becca was here visiting one time and in one session we had Pip pretty consistently putting his head in the hole of a square fabric cat hideaway thing (why? just for fun) and got Kes to associate the clicker with good things so that she started offering behaviors. But there was no pressure on the dogs for any of this. And they've not seen a clicker since, but I imagine if Becca shows up again with her clicker, they'll pretty much pick up right where they left off, or even at a more advanced stage. Because I think learning goes on even when you're finished with an actual training session.

 

And I don't expect them to learn everything from the pack. But I also don't *expect* them to learn at a particular rate or in a particular way. I don't get worried if the pup isn't figuring out what I mean by "lie down" (or a hand signal) at 8 weeks old. When people post that the poor pup just isn't getting it and then we find that the pup is 8 or 9 weeks old, I just want to say, "Give 'em a break! They're babies."

 

I'm glad to see that many folks don't feel that the pup needs to be able to perform to a certain level by a certain age, but if recent posts are any indication, it would seem that some folks do set the bar pretty high at a pretty young age.

 

Like some of the other posters here, I just grab training opportunities when they present themselves. This works well for me (and my dogs) and carries over well when I start them on stock, where I also grab training opportunities as they present themselves (since you can't always predict what will happen when you start working them, so best to be able to go with the flow; and if I think about it, that's probably why I approach the rest of their training in a go-with-the-flow, less structured format--it will serve us well later).

 

J.

[PSmitty]

And I don't expect them to learn everything from the pack. But I also don't *expect* them to learn at a particular rate or in a particular way. I don't get worried if the pup isn't figuring out what I mean by "lie down" (or a hand signal) at 8 weeks old.

 

Yes, this.

 

I am all for "training" puppies to be good citizens. But I worry when I read the posts that make me think too much is being expected out of baby dogs. It's the expectation and frustration of the owner, that makes me tell them to relax and let puppies BE puppies.

 

It doesn't mean I'm recommending let puppies run amok and turn into heathens. Being involved in rescue, we see too many dogs who weren't trained as puppies and youngsters, who never learned boundaries or had anything expected of them. And that's why they end up in rescue...So, it's a balancing act, for sure.

[Carson Crazies]

It doesn't mean I'm recommending let puppies run amok and turn into heathens. Being involved in rescue, we see too many dogs who weren't trained as puppies and youngsters, who never learned boundaries or had anything expected of them. And that's why they end up in rescue...So, it's a balancing act, for sure.

 

I'll second your "yes, this" with a yes, this, to this. It is about balance.

 

I'd say this thread might have come up as a reaction to the training pressure and expectations being applied to baby puppies (across many different threads recently). I wouldn't say to let puppies run amok (despite my joke I have too many dogs in too small of a space for much amok-ness) but to rather not worry so much about the technical stuff when they're still so mentally immature. Set boundaries, train when the opportunities arise, and enjoy your puppies.

[olivehill]

I also teach lie down, but if the pup doesn't get it right away, I don't drill it. I may not even practice it every day.

 

 

But you assume other people do. Why is that?

 

Since you've repeatedly used my post as an example lets go ahead jump off from there -- especially since I know the motivation and history of training behind mine, which has not included "worry", "drilling", "pressure" or an expectation of "a certain rate" or "in a certain way". I asked if anyone had an tips for helping a puppy make the connection between a body language cue he knows and a verbal cue he doesn't. The motivation behind my post was primarily curiosity. It's been quite a while since our last pup (truth is we have one that's only 3, but she was never much of a "normal" puppy, the next youngest I have is almost 11.. it's been a while) and I wondered if there were any methods I'd either forgotten or hadn't heard about. No where did I say anything about wanting him to know it by a certain age, that I was "drilling him", that we were spending inordinate amounts of time training or any such thing that should lead someone to believe it was anything but exactly what you describe doing with your own dogs. In fact, I tried to include as much information as possible to stave off such assumptions and when others responded that there wasn't anything they knew of that I hadn't already tried and that it was probably just age I replied okay, we'll come back to it. No disappointment or pressure to continue on, because I certainly feel/felt none. But you assumed I was drilling him, being impatient, expecting too much, putting him under pressure and training him "in a certain way" and "at a certain rate". So I'm curious, if you train your pups too, why do you assume that if someone asks a question they're not letting their pup "enjoy life" in the same way you allow yours to enjoy life?

[olivehill]

Ooops! I guess I type too slow.

 

So my question then, would be directed to all who express the same thoughts. If you train at a young age, and do so without pressure or a schedule in mind, why assume others can't do / aren't doing the same?

[juliepoudrier]

But you assume other people do. Why is that?

 

I suppose it's because there were several posts in a similar vein and it struck me as people being overly concerned about the rate at which their pups were learning. The downside of such a forum, where it's not so easy to explain every little thing. And once someone says "this is what I do" then others say "well, it's what I do too" and it seems we're really all on the same page. But we can only go on what is presented, and often that leads to assumptions.

 

Since you've repeatedly used my post as an example lets go ahead jump off from there -- especially since I know the motivation and history of training behind mine, which has not included "worry", "drilling", "pressure" or an expectation of "a certain rate" or "in a certain way".

 

Actually, you're the one making an assumption here. I was speaking collectively of several posts, and if you had asked me who started those threads, I couldn't have told you, so to assume I am picking on you directly is a mistake.

 

No where did I say anything about wanting him to know it by a certain age, that I was "drilling him", that we were spending inordinate amounts of time training or any such thing that should lead someone to believe it was anything but exactly what you describe doing with your own dogs.

 

And in fact because I was not directing my comments directly at you (see above), you didn't need to assume that the stuff you put in quotes above was directed at you either.

 

But you assumed I was drilling him, being impatient, expecting too much, putting him under pressure and training him "in a certain way" and "at a certain rate".

 

Again, I was referring to recent posts collectively. None of my comments were directed at YOU specifically. I don't know what else I can say about that. You can believe I was discussing you (though honestly, if I wanted to do that, I'd have gone to your thread and posted comments directly to you), but I was simply stating my general feelings about training, based on an *impression* I had gotten from several recent posts, of which yours was one, but not the only one.

 

So I'm curious, if you train your pups too, why do you assume that if someone asks a question they're not letting their pup "enjoy life" in the same way you allow yours to enjoy life?

 

I guess because I enjoy assuming so that someone who feels offended by my assumptions can call me on the carpet here. It's why I stay on this forum and try to offer advice, because I enjoy pissing people off. One of these days I may even learn to just stay away from the general discussions on this forum. It's becoming too difficult to offer advice or opinions without someone taking it the wrong way and becoming offended.

 

I'm done here.

 

J.