Canaan Ranch border collies

[stockdogranch]

Well, now that I'm back from hauling calves to and from the sale today, I need to set one thing straight. I received a lengthy email from Jan this morning, and since my first statement was made publicly, on these boards, my response shall also be made publicly on these boards.

 

Apparently I was mistaken, and Jan did in fact run several of her dogs in pro-novice, not just in novice.

 

The rest of my statement I stand by,

 

A

[jdarling]

Rave, I think I read somewhere that the variation in the price has to do with the expenses of whelping, i.e. C-section, etc.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

>>>Apparently I was mistaken, and Jan did in fact run several of her dogs in pro-novice, not just in novice. <<

 

How did she do?

[Sue R]

Rave, I think I read somewhere that the variation in the price has to do with the expenses of whelping, i.e. C-section, etc.

So (and this is not aimed at the breeder under discussion, just at any breeder that your description might apply to) a buyer of a pup has to pay more if the bitch needs more expensive care to whelp due to problems? That just doesn't make sense - I would think the "value" of a pup was based on the sire and dam, their accomplishments and pedigree, not on birthing issues and associated costs. Especially if one is buying a bitch pup that might be a breeding prospect...

[kajarrel]

How did she do?

 

http://hobnob7.livejournal.com/10611.html

 

Kim

[hobnob]

Well, now that I'm back from hauling calves to and from the sale today, I need to set one thing straight. I received a lengthy email from Jan this morning, and since my first statement was made publicly, on these boards, my response shall also be made publicly on these boards.

 

Apparently I was mistaken, and Jan did in fact run several of her dogs in pro-novice, not just in novice.

 

The rest of my statement I stand by,

 

A

 

Since Anna seems to purposefully leave out the truthful details of my post, my Hob Nob family has urged me to send it here so that each of you can have the facts.

 

Here is what I sent to stockdogranch that I know to be Anna Guthrie before she even got into herding

 

Anna...

 

Typically, I don't give credence to such posts that the bc boards are covered with but since I 'know' you, I felt you needed to be enlightened rather than spew misinformation or gossip.

 

Let me give you some factual information. Of course you could probably care less, but I believe that ignorance can only be cured with truth and facts, so here goes in a nutshell.

 

I began training and trialing my dogs in herding in 1997. I have actually owned Border Collies since 1980. I'm guessing that is probably longer than you have owned border collies? To date I have finished AKC herding championships on a total of 7 Border collies that I trained and trialed myself. These seven dogs all competed on both A and B courses. My first bc that brought me into the herding venue was "Static" who went HIT on the B course at the first BCSA National Specialty when I barely knew anything about the AKC venue or how to run their courses. Of course the open trial "purists" such as you, will joke about all of that training and trialing in AKC because it's not a "real" test for herding ability, you all think of this as a meaningless form of herding. Herding is herding and how sad for anyone to look so negatively on such. If I do remember, you judged AKC herding trials? and teach AKC people who want to learn a new passion for this sport?

 

Well let's move on to the "real deal" that all the big hats get so excited about, lets see what about USBCHA events?

 

Let's skip over the USBCHA Novice-Novice events since that is meaningless to the open trial people anyway and you say that this is the only USBCHA trials I competed in and got my "clocked cleaned" lets move on to Pro-Novice. I competed quite successfully at the Pro-Novice level with four different dogs that I raised from puppies, trained and trailed. While living in California I flew my dogs and trialed in several very prestigious Pro-Novice trials in New York, Massachusetts, Minnesota and California. I won several of these huge (avg entry was 50 dogs in a Pro-Novice class) USBCHA trials winning over several of the so called "big hats" with their imported trained dogs. A former USBCHA board member commented on my great handling ability and what nice dogs I had. Not too shabby for someone you claim

 

"Then she did a VERY brief stint at USBCHA trials in the novice/novice level. Got her clock cleaned"

 

Huh? where do you get such erroneous information?

 

Before you hooked up with Mike Lofton, his facility was the only AKC trial in the SO CAL area to bring in range ramboullets of which I and my dogs were the few teams to manage to get these ewes around the advance A and B courses scoring quite well and to put it in your words, "cleaning everyone's clock". I also don't have to tell you that all the USBCHA trials in CA run with range ewes of which my dogs worked quite well on and actually won several of these courses.

 

Finally let's move on to the training aspect of herding. I am assuming that at some point in your life you have taken lessons from someone or maybe multiple people. Let's face it we all need to have a large bag of training tools to learn and use as some dogs need different methods. As an instructor in herding I will assume that you are familiar with different training tools used in training. The pros would never think of holding onto a line for a young dog that has turned onto sheep yet is not ready to be turned loose on sheep as they are still working on the basic foundation skills needed to turn into a great herding dog. The "purists" would never do such a thing and would argue that the dog is never allowed to cover his sheep. These same people will also ridicule and trash talk any deviation in their typical herding training. Over the years that I was actively competing in herding, I attended clinics and taken private lessons from many of the "big hats" to further my knowledge base. These big hats included Alisdair McCrae, Bobby Dalziel, Candy Kennedy, John Atkinson, Karen Childs, Suzy Applegate, Bill Berhow, Patrick Shannahan, Jack Knox and the most wonderful Marc Christopher. Not one of these respected top handlers and trainers scoffed at my abilities as a handler/trainer and were quite complimentary talking to me on 'their' level without the slightest intent that I was under their league unlike the way off base statements that you have made about me.

 

Your 'description" about how my dogs and I handled the A courses is so far from the truth and makes me wonder who the heck you were watching cuz it wasn't me nor my dogs!

 

I am not sending this with the intention of "flaming you" as that is why I sent this as a personal/private post. As I stated previously ignorance can only be cured by facts and truth but only if you are the type of person that takes in actual facts before making uninformed judgements of people. Unfortunately the "BC Boards" is a rumor mill for back stabbing gossipers that make up things as they go along. I have read the other posts concerning Hob Nob and have to shake my head in sad and pathetic amusement at how much negative energy is wasted by people with nothing better to do than make up nasty and vicious things about people when no one knows the facts or truth or is willing to speak up. It is quite pointless to respond to any of the lies that are being said about myself and my wonderful Hob Nob dogs on the BC Boards, it would be easier to change blood types than to challenge their lies and gossip.

 

Any respect I may have had for you is no longer. You should be ashamed for writing such an untruthful post. I hope it made you feel like a 'big hat' in that small and nasty bc boards community.

 

Jan DeMello

Hob Nob border collies

www.jandemellobordercollie.com

BLOG: http://hobnob7.livejournal.com/

[Eileen Stein]

How sad for those people that they didn't appreciate how eager their dogs were to please them....Anticipation is great!

 

I totally agree. I love a dog who anticipates. Since I am a slow-witted person, it has saved my bacon many times.

[Denise Wall]

Jan,

 

Another viewpoint. This is something I see over and over in people whose main accomplishments are in areas of obedience, agility or other dog sports, but somehow feel it's equal or good enough to do only okay or mediocre in "herding."

 

As someone who's been at the top of these other sports yourself, and bred dogs that got there with others, how do you compare the less than top of the game herding accomplishments from yourself and the dogs you bred? Surely you realize that Pro/Novice is not USBCHA Open and therefore not top of the game and equal to OTChs and such? (I can't and won't comment on the AKC herding stuff.)

 

I guess it always amazes me that the very people who brag over their lower level herding accomplishments as if it's the highest standard, are the same people who would scoff at those bragging about that lower standard being reached in their own specialty area of obedience or agility. As in, would you consider getting a CD a major accomplishment to set up as a highest standard in obedience? Probably not. If not, you can well imagine that N/N and pronovice, however successful you were, just doesn't pull the same weight as USBCHA Open success with those at the top of their game in that area, just as similar lower accomplishments in your areas of success don't pull the same weight as top accomplishments with you.

[Eileen Stein]

Just a couple of points about hobnob's posts:

 

While living in California I flew my dogs and trialed in several very prestigious Pro-Novice trials in New York, Massachusetts, Minnesota and California. I won several of these huge (avg entry was 50 dogs in a Pro-Novice class) USBCHA trials winning over several of the so called "big hats" with their imported trained dogs.

 

Jan doesn't say what huge pro-novice trials she won, but pro-novice trials by their nature are not prestigious. Pro-novice is a novice-level class, unsanctioned by the USBCHA. In NY and MA they have an outrun of no more than 200 yds at most and a single drive leg. Likewise, while "big hats" do run in them, they are almost always running young dogs to give them their first trialing experience before moving them up, not imported trained dogs.

 

I attended clinics and taken private lessons from many of the "big hats" to further my knowledge base. These big hats included Alisdair McCrae, Bobby Dalziel, Candy Kennedy, John Atkinson, Karen Childs, Suzy Applegate, Bill Berhow, Patrick Shannahan, Jack Knox and the most wonderful Marc Christopher. Not one of these respected top handlers and trainers scoffed at my abilities as a handler/trainer and were quite complimentary talking to me on 'their' level without the slightest intent that I was under their league unlike the way off base statements that you have made about me.

 

I have never known a clinician or trainer giving private lessons to scoff at a customer's abilities -- in my experience they are invariably polite and respectful. It's truly surprising to me that Jan would take this as evidence that she is their equal.

 

Jan, I'm sure you know that your posts are flames -- you say as much in the one directed to stockdogranch. Flaming is not allowed here. I have left your posts up so that people can get the flavor of them and draw their own conclusions, but if you post any further such flames (e.g., "backstabbing gossipers," "vicious, "nasty"), your posts will be deleted. You can challenge facts and opinions without resorting to this level of discourse.

 

ETA: As Kathy Kawalec has shown with such class in the "Starting a dog" thread.

[Rave]

So (and this is not aimed at the breeder under discussion, just at any breeder that your description might apply to) a buyer of a pup has to pay more if the bitch needs more expensive care to whelp due to problems? That just doesn't make sense - I would think the "value" of a pup was based on the sire and dam, their accomplishments and pedigree, not on birthing issues and associated costs. Especially if one is buying a bitch pup that might be a breeding prospect...

 

 

Well said. I would think based on the sheer number of pups sold at those exhorbitant* prices that they'd be able to afford a little extra on the occasional litter. Look at rescue.... when I did it we didn't charge more for dogs who cost more to make adoptable, we let the fees brought in from other adoption cover it (and asked for donations when necessary), we never passed on that price to the adopter.

 

 

* I spend $4 on a latte and some here might think that's exhorbitant too. To each their own.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Our ProNovice out here can be up to 300-350 yards, full drive and pen.

 

The course which is equal to the east coast ProNovice is called Ranch out here in WA. It's just a step above Novice with a short first drive leg and then to the pen. Since I can't run my dogs in Novice, I run my upcoming youngings in Ranch. I consider a place for me and my dog to work out the kinks and get a feel for trialing. Have I won ranch...yes, many times but it not something that I will brag about. The only classes I care about are Open and Nursery.

 

Jan- you are right down the road from numerous trials...why don't you come out and run in them?

[Rave]

http://hobnob7.livejournal.com/10611.html

 

Kim

 

 

Was the post erased? I only get directed to her latest post flaming me. lol I like how she calls me out - I'm one of the very very few people (maybe 2?) who said anything nice about her here. I never realize being called a beginner was such a slam to some. If I had a bad day at agility (which I most certainly have!) and someone called me a beginner based on what they saw, I'd have to agree with them!

 

It's not easy being "talked about" online (having modded a teenager's forum though, I've seen the worst of it and this is pretty tame), but really all you can do is present the facts. If you over-reach, or flame, well then your posts just lose credibility, as do you.

[Denise Wall]

http://hobnob7.livejournal.com/10611.html

 

Kim

 

I finally went and read this. It didn't really change my views on what was originally written here and was attempting to be refuted. Novice/beginner - sort of interchangeable for me. And despite the assurance from Jan's peers (HobNobers?) that this new info she posted here and on the link was "one strong verbal slap of knowledge!" I doubt it impressed many if any of my peers in the least. And note to Jan, as a very lengthy recent thread will indicate, working dogs and posting videos using the style of "the most wonderful Marc Christopher" is not likely to gain you acknowledgment as "not a beginner" by the mainstream working/trialing people.

 

That said, I would like to note that anybody can run any dog in USBCHA Open. And sometimes even place. Some people do this at selected trials where they can cherry pick the situation to their advantage, sometimes even only at their own farm, or that of a friend where they have "practiced" the course so much that they have a chance or unfair advantage over teams running in the trial fresh.

 

If you're going to use trials as a criteria to showcase your dog's talents, it is the quality of the trials, sheep and dog work over time and challenging conditions that truly show the quality of a dog. Consistent placings do matter but there are lots of dogs with handlers that do not place regularly whose dogs are respected and sought after for breeding because knowledgeable people can see the quality of the dog. It's not same world as AKC. People watch the actual work, not just titles no matter how they are obtained.

 

I guess this post will be viewed as bashing from a "non AKC purist" but all I really want to say is you obviously have a market for which you breed dogs that excel - sport dogs. If you do not understand the reality of expectations in the real sheepdog/cattledog working world, either try to figure it out and be honest in your presentation of your dogs' abilities and accomplishments, or accept that those people who actually live in that world will "bash" you as you say.

 

ETA Just so you'll know, yes, I've had border collies since before 1980. I've had them all my life, in fact. And my paternal grandmother was a working border collie breeder way back when using dogs from imported UK stock from Aurthur Allen.

[kajarrel]

Hi Rave,

I thought it interesting that she was addressing the questions/posts in another forum rather than directly to the BC Boards, but was in a hurry and didn't take the time to add my own comments.

 

I guess my primary thought is that it's odd that she is (fundamentally) getting so angry about people pointing out that her dogs are being bred for color/sports - a strategy that has, apparently, been quite lucrative given the prices of her dogs. Those trailing at USBCHA events would not appear to be her intended market and you have to wonder why she would care what they think? Guilty conscience?

 

Kim

[juliepoudrier]

I actually went and read the Livejournal entry too. I had to go back and look at Jan's post here with her e-mail to Anna because after reading Gail's email to Laura I was struck by the near identicalness of it to the post Jan made here.

 

I'm one of the people who watched Jan's videos and mentioned not covering and balancing. In fact, I watched a bunch of her videos, not just the one of Fusion and I based my comments on the sum of all the videos, not just the one. I watched one dog working off the line. Every time the dog came to a corner, she was asked to lie down while Jan moved the sheep away from the fence. I wondered then if Jan just didn't want the dog to go between the sheep and the fence and why. This same dog when circling sheep never came to balance that I could tell, often appearing to just be circling with no regard for where Jan or the sheep were. She was very obedient though. Granted, this was one video of the five or so I watched, but in all the others, the dogs were on a line ala MC so I couldn't make any real observation of that the dog's actual training/abilities might be.

 

Jan, I agree with Denise. It's insulting to the folks who work hard and compete in open for someone to come along and try to equate success in a novice class with success in open. The two are worlds apart.

 

And, as Kim said, if your primary clientele is sports people, why do you feel a need to even "go there" with USBCHA trialing? It would seem that if your great successes were in AKC herding, you'd find a ready group of puppy buyers among folks who want to do AKC herding.

 

J.

[Journey]

I actually went and read the Livejournal entry too. I had to go back and look at Jan's post here with her e-mail to Anna because after reading Gail's email to Laura I was struck by the near identicalness of it to the post Jan made here.

 

 

Glad it's not just me. I thought they were one in the same just a quick copy and paste here and there to different people!

 

I know of one HN dog, Epic, that I believe won PN at Sonoma (4 years or more ago). Not sure who was handling him, I thought it was his owner though not Jan.

[Root Beer]

I have had a couple of obedience people tell me this. What they said was that the dogs were too much inclined to anticipate, and they were inclined to run curvy rather than straight when sent on go-outs. I find the second hard to believe (almost sounds like a joke), but the first might be true. Nothing that couldn't be dealt with through good training, though, I would say.

 

I'm with those who appreciate anticipation. I'd rather have a dog eager to GO GO GO and have to do some extra self control training than a dog who is just sort of there willing to do whatever, but doesn't have that inclination to anticipate what's next with desire and drive.

 

Granted, I don't do traditional obedience, but in other sports I've found anticipation to be an asset. A lot of sport folks have an abject horror of allowing a dog to anticipate, but I've found that kind of mindset in a dog to be much more beneficial than detrimental. Even in Freestyle, where the dog can't be a move ahead of the handler, I like that anticipatory attitude in a dog. It just takes training and good communication between dog and handler to keep things together.

 

As far as running curvy, that's interesting. Speedy is one of those Border Collies who always wants to run in an arc, but when he is sent to something like a target or on a retrieve, he always goes straight. Seems to me that training the dog to go out straight could be done successfully with most dogs, no matter how curvy they run naturally.

[Lenajo]

Last time I looked at the HobNob site there were 6 litters planned over a 6 month period. At an average of $2000 a pup, with an average of 6 pups a litter, thats $72000 earned gross. Now I've got limited experience with breeding, but I think I could whelp out 6 Border Collies even with a c-section and still make a little cash there

 

No matter how much money you get out of the sport crowd Jan, the fact that you still make posts like these here and on your journal tells me you want more. And that one thing you want is the one thing that high class puppy milling won't give you is Respect. Respect from those Border Collie people that know what the breed is really capable of. Respect from those who know exactly what you are doing when you suddently "accidentally" have a kennel full of recessive and minority colors of the breed as breeding stock. Respect from those that know exactly how hard, and not, it was to win a few trials here and there.

 

Unforunately, color, titles, health checks, and "I used too" and "I did once" won't buy you that.

 

Even somebody who hasn't been in Border Collies since 1980 can tell you that.

 

The fact that you've been in this since 1980 and don't understand what people are upset....wow.

[Eileen Stein]

I know of one HN dog, Epic, that I believe won PN at Sonoma (4 years or more ago). Not sure who was handling him, I thought it was his owner though not Jan.

 

That was April Quist's dog, and April was running him. It was more like six or seven years ago, I think, and since the dog was 8 years old at the time, he was probably born around the time of AKC recognition. I remember posting congratulations to her on the Boards, and saying that she was one of the few BCSA people that I thought sincerely meant it when they talked about trying to preserve working ability in the AKC border collie. I've lost track of her and don't know what's happened with her since then, though. Don't think she ever moved up to Open.

 

ETA: I've been told privately that Epic is 11 now (born 3/24/98), so he would have been more like five or six years old when he won PN at Sonoma.

[Rave]

So what is the philosophy behind this Mark guy's training method of putting the dog on a line to prevent it from actually working? Seems counter-intuitive to me.

[jdarling]

Source: HobNob Blog

 

Training methods

Jun. 18th, 2009 at 10:01 AM

 

Let me go on record that I knew up front that anything that I posted to the bc boards in order to give facts to the unjustified slamming, would not be viewed as such. Many times I simply ignore such slanderous posts but every once in awhile I find it necessary to put the facts out there in the hopes that it overrides the lies. And every time the end result is one of failure on my part to get the truth to be seen as it is.

 

As for LS, I know that the HN army will conduct themselves with dignity if they cross paths next weekend.

 

As for my breeding program, I never make any claims that I breed working border collies. I don't breed for color although I am drawn to some colors over others but not to the point that color overrides the most important qualities of my HN dogs! Heck, I still breed tris and freckles!:>) People such as LS can make claims that I am a sports dog breeder of which I took no offense. She can choose to label what type of border collie breeder I am in her own way. I have not given myself, nor my breeding program, any type of label...I simply breed the type of border collie that I like. Do I want them to have working ability that makes them the premier herding dog? Absolutely! But I put more into other aspects such as structure, temperament, biddability, work ethic and don't forget easy on the eyes:>), etc. The fact that I don't breed for working ability exclusively and breed bc's that have not competed at the open level sheepdog trials puts many a bc purist into fits of rage:>) I leave the breeding of border collies exclusively bred for working attributes to those that hold that near and dear to their hearts and applaud them!

 

While I used to have a goal to trial at the open level in sheep dog trials, that goal has long been put to rest for many reasons. I know that I could train my dogs to the open level without question! But the days of trucking my sheep to open fields are over and all that goes into the making of an open level trial dog! I actually no longer have the desire to trial in ANY herding venue. For me, I take tremendous pleasure in doing some simple yet effective training with several of my young dogs. I do so primarily to form a bond that can only be nurtured thru our working together much like I had with Chisel who was my last dog that I did full training and competing with in herding, obedience and agility. And the other reason is to get me off my fat ass and off this darn computer!

 

I have nothing to prove to anyone which includes proving anything to myself. Been there, done that and proud of all my accomplishments with the help of some outstanding dogs!

 

Just as in obedience and agility, there are many ways to start a dog in their herding training. Marc Christopher fits the status of a remarkably gifted and talented herding instructor whose training method is 'outside the box' of what is most familiar to the more typical tried and true herding diehards. And because of this outside the box training method, it brings forth the nay sayers to come forward to slander it without even beginning to know how effective his method is! Again, pretty typical.

 

I have certainly been guilty of being a nay sayer and one such example was the 2x2 method to weaving. When SG first introduced this method, albeit not nearly as refined as outlined in her new DVD, it was poo pooed by many of which I was right there at the top of the nay sayers! Why? Because a certain competitor and devout follower of SG/2x2 loudly proclaimed it to be the best method yet trial, after trial, after trial, after agility trial this competitor's dog could NEVER find entries and ALWAYS ran past the WHOLE SET OF WEAVE POLES a minimum of 3 times before finally weaving. So, hence the nay saying but this is no excuse on my part.

 

When I then saw a brief trailer to the new 2x2 DVD, I instinctively knew this was a winner...a BIG winner! I ordered the DVD with the intent to train several of my dogs with this method even though I no longer compete in agility. I wanted to be in a position to say how genius the method is but in order to validate such I had to go thru the program. After completing the 2x2 method with Prada and Fusion and currently working Posh and Trestle, I stand by my original assessment that this method is genius! You can bet that there are top agility trainers already saying negative things about the 2x2 method and more then likely not having even attempted to train a dog thru the program.

 

Just as I endorse Marc C for herding and Susan G 2x2 weaving method, I always like to promote a training method that I believe in albeit scoffed at by others who choose not to take the leap out of their comfort zone and try something uniquely different. But it should not give anyone license to bash. Lesson numero uno that I myself learned and thankful I did!

 

Just goes to show that this old dog (trainer) can learn new tricks!

[Sue R]

While I used to have a goal to trial at the open level in sheep dog trials, that goal has long been put to rest for many reasons. I know that I could train my dogs to the open level without question!

Words come cheap, but actually doing something challenging like being successful in Open (and particularly with multiple dogs) is another story...

 

...and don't forget easy on the eyes...

Said in humor or not, that's certainly not a worthwhile breeding choice, in my ignorant opinion.

[Debbie Meier]

Curious,

 

1st: What do people consider as a dog trained to Open Level

 

2nd: What do people consider as Successful in the Open Division

 

Does everyone consider it one in the same or can a dog have the ability to do open work but not well enough to be successful in the Open division? Also, can a dog/hander do open work in a real life situation with a big flock but then fall apart when put on a trial course with a small group of sheep?

 

I often wonder when people are advertising dogs and their accomplishments.

 

Deb

[Root Beer]

I endorse . . . . Susan G 2x2 weaving method

 

Susan's 2x2 method is phenomenal.

 

Edited: It looked like I was quoting the wrong person, so I fixed that. The quote is from the blurb quoted.

[OurBoys]

I put more into other aspects such as structure, temperament, biddability, work ethic and don't forget easy on the eyes:>), etc. The fact that I don't breed for working ability exclusively and breed bc's that have not competed at the open level sheepdog trials puts many a bc purist into fits of rage:>) I leave the breeding of border collies exclusively bred for working attributes to those that hold that near and dear to their hearts and applaud them!

But if she did breed for working ability exclusively, wouldn't structure, temperament, biddability and work ethic follow suit???