Local Border Collie Breeders

[Lenajo]

unfortanately it takes more than watching from ringside and chatting with people who know other competitors to find out the real scoop on these breeders. Just like in stockdog events, the dogs that flop don't show up at events. Unless you get involved with someone's friends who know what happened - basically why the dog, or even they, aren't there - you may never get wind of the situation.

 

It will come to light, but it takes *time*. You can't random or rush purchase and expect large amounts of cash paid to equal quality or breeder integrity.

 

I too know the breeder that Jan is dealing with and as I've told her privately, she is jumping from frying pan to fire. She may even be worse off in terms of health.

 

I wish her the best of luck of course.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I always recommend to people breaking into the breed, to go with either a rescue (if they are looking for more of a companion dog) or an adult being "retired" from working, for light stock work or dog sports.

 

Once you start getting into the culture, mentorship is really the only way to go. Just standing around at trials won't give you the information you need to start exploring breeders, but getting involved helping out, and going as spectator to clinics, and hanging out on lesson days - all these are ways for a newcomer to get to know people.

 

Getting involved with rescue is another way to learn about the dark underside of any breed. Remember though that you'll be seeing the worst - be sure to balance that with a hefty dose of exposure to the good guys at stockdog functions.

 

As to purchasing a puppy remotely - why do it? I've never purchased a puppy from any further away than two states. I feel strongly about being able to have a personal relationship with the breeder. With local lines it's like belonging to a big family. And it doesn't preclude getting something "cool" - my Ted's a grandson of two-time Supreme Champion, for instance, among other kinda cool stuff.

 

Once you feel comfortable within the community as a whole, including people all around the country, then you might want some particular awesome matchup you find out about. I've got one combination of lines I'd go through hell and high water to get if it happened at the right time. But that comes with experience and knowing who's legit and who might not stand behind their breeding.

 

If I am not familiar with a breeder or lines, I've got a list of people, mostly people that are here incidentally, who I know will give me a complete picture of any potential problems they might be aware of - particularly all-important issues with full siblings, siblings of the parents, etc. This thread was started by someone simply posting - "hey, thinking of getting a pup from these people" - and they sure got their answer! No one hesitated to respond publically, from what I can tell. Other breeders might have issues that are less black and white and I'd respond privately inthat case - and I'd put it in a way that simply said, "Here's what I've personally seen. I don't think (or do think) this would stop me from getting a really good pup from them."

 

I'm not stomping on Jen here - as I say, I sympathize. I just want to point out that it's not inevitable that one need fall into this type of trap.

[standsurebcs]

Hi All

 

I am a newbie to the boards - this is my first post, and in reading this specific thread, must add my 2cents. this is a bit of a diatribe, so bear with me . . . this is a relevent post believe me, but i want to give a bit of info before i go on . . .

 

i have been in the breed for 20+ years

i have been breeding for 11 years (3 litters to date, i breed when i need another from my line)

i do herding, agility, flyball, obedience, rally o and anything else i can think of to do with my bcs

i currently have 8 bcs and a jrt (which is more work than my 8 bcs! lol)

 

i also have a RS dog, and she is, incidentally, a littermate to fever's mother.

 

i couldn't ask for a nicer bitch than quinn (she is my dog, so naming her is my perrogative)

she has incredible work ethic, structure to die for, lovely temperament, no agression, no resource guarding . . . a perfect little lady - oh, and absolutely great with my 2 year old son (who came along when she was 6 years old). she is health checked to the ying yang - passing with flying colours. everyone that has met her loves her. she had a couple of fear periods as a youngster (which ANYONE who knows ANYTHING about dog development can tell you, is part of growing up - as it is in humans), her worst being the 10 week one. she came thru pretty much unscathed.

 

i have also met fever's grandmother and great granny, as well as her mother and grandfather. and, ripley was the reason i GOT a rs dog, i fell in love with her.

 

jen, have you met these dogs at all, or is your condemnation done sight unseen? i have met the foundation bitch and quite a few of her subsequent family. pretty nice dogs all around.

 

now, several things i want to address on this issue . . .

 

i liked ripley so much, we bought quinn

i liked quinn so much, i used spot to stud (fabs litter btw!)

 

i have met quite a few dogs bred from this kennel, in my travels . . . from this particular line is of interest to me as they are, obviously, directly related to my dogs and quinny.

 

i have seen 1 that i do not like at all . . . interesting scenario - the dog definitely has issues, but interesting enough they are the same issues this owner has with their 2 other, unrelated border collies . . . nature or nurture?? NURTURE!!!!!!!! this dog has become exactly what this owners other 2 dogs are like.

 

another interesting scenario . . . a friend of mine teaches all over canada and in the usa . . . came across a rs dog, this dog has issues . . . interestingly enough . . . they are the SAME issues as the other 2 dogs in the household . . . the other 2 dogs are a different breed! nature or nurture?? NURTURE!!!!!

 

perhaps taking even some responsibility would be order?

 

i am in canada, and believe me, there are kennels in this country that make me shudder! but, i would NEVER EVER slander them this way! regardless if i agree or disagree with their ethics and breeding practices.

 

reading the background on this post . . . YOU purchased a dog in a time of stress (a huge no no, which i know you know)

 

i think you are harshly judging someone when, in actuality, should some of the blame not be aimed closer to home?

 

i am sorry things didn't work out in the agility world for you, but did you not get a dog as family member first and athlete second?? i would imagine that, if you did, you would love fever even if both her front legs fell off! this is the type of home i want for my puppies, not "agility" or "sport" homes. the people i sell to wouldn't care if the dog never played, they purchase a family member, not an athlete.

 

puppies are, in essence, clean slates. what we write on them is up to us. yes, things happen along the way that is beyond our control, i don't dispute that at all. but most of us love these dogs and take the rolls and punches.

 

what you are doing is disrespectful to people like me, that own and love one of these wonderful dogs. how do you feel having pointed out to you that, your new puppy has a history that is beyond scary? probably not very good . . . now you know how people like me feel when you crap on a line we enjoy.

 

repectfully,

 

kim

[Journey]

what you are doing is disrespectful to people like me, that own and love one of these wonderful dogs. how do you feel having pointed out to you that, your new puppy has a history that is beyond scary? probably not very good . . . now you know how people like me feel when you crap on a line we enjoy.

 

repectfully,

 

kim

 

Kim, welcome to the boards! Did someone specific point you here to trash a member intentionally?

 

Throughout the thread Jen has said she made a mistake with an impulse buy. She's also said that she is keeping Fever, vetting her as needed, epi and all medication that goes along with it.

 

If you read the entire thread you will see where others have had less than "stellar" dealings with RS and or RS dogs. Gee, you are not the only one with glowing reports, I think DeltaBluez said much good about this kennel as well. Your entire post came off as an infomercial for RS.

 

Could you please point out to me where the "slander" occurred too in Jens posts? And since you rave so much about the breeder/kennel maybe you have insight as to why there are apparently more littermates with issues and yet the dam is still being bred? She may be "crapping" on a line you like but if what she says is true then it needs to be said.

[Root Beer]

what you are doing is disrespectful to people like me, that own and love one of these wonderful dogs.

 

So, if I come on here and say that I have a Border Collie who is messed up in the head - possibly brain damaged - who has suffered various issues due to his shaky temperament, am I disrespectful to all Border Collie owners who happen to have nice, simple, temperamentally stable dogs? Of course not.

 

What if I come on here and say that I have a Border Collie who is noise phobic? Am I being disrespectful to all Border Collie owners who happen to have Border Collies who don't care about noise? Certainly not!

 

The OP asked about dogs from the RS kennel and Jen shared her experience with the kennel. Whether one agrees with her or not on her decisions regarding the dog, the fact is that her experience is what it is. It's hardly disrespectful for her to post honestly about her experience.

 

As far as nature vs. nurture regarding temperament issues in dogs, well . . . we certainly are at opposite ends of the point of view spectrum.

 

Still, one could hardly say that Fever's digestive issues and seizures have been caused by NURTURE. I'm just saying . . . !!!

[Journey]

I've never purchased a puppy from any further away than two states. I feel strongly about being able to have a personal relationship with the breeder.

 

But how does this fall into the saying people here have "don't limit yourself to a certain area - find the right dog". Distance doesn't have to be a negative and doesn't preclude one from having a personal relationship with the breeder.

[standsurebcs]

thank you for that backhanded welcome journy, and no, someone did not specifically point me here to post, i did it all by myself (and i'm a blonde too, pretty good eh!!)

 

sooooooo. just to clafiry

 

its ok for jen to post her opinions and informercials AGAINST rs, but for someone like me to come on and support them is wrong . . .

 

hmmmm . . . interesting . . . a bit onesided but interesting!

 

kim

[standsurebcs]

The OP asked about dogs from the RS kennel and Jen shared her experience with the kennel. Whether one agrees with her or not on her decisions regarding the dog, the fact is that her experience is what it is. It's hardly disrespectful for her to post honestly about her experience.

 

As far as nature vs. nurture regarding temperament issues in dogs, well . . . we certainly are at opposite ends of the point of view spectrum.

 

And jen gave her opinion . . . i am now giving mine, it just happens to go the other way.

 

the nature vs nurture, well opinions are like bums, everyone has one! lol

 

kim

[Debbie Meier]

I was confused at first, but I think the first part is a quote from Root Beer, the second is in response to it by Kim.

 

The OP asked about dogs from the RS kennel and Jen shared her experience with the kennel. Whether one agrees with her or not on her decisions regarding the dog, the fact is that her experience is what it is. It's hardly disrespectful for her to post honestly about her experience.

 

As far as nature vs. nurture regarding temperament issues in dogs, well . . . we certainly are at opposite ends of the point of view spectrum.

 

 

And jen gave her opinion . . . i am now giving mine, it just happens to go the other way.

 

the nature vs nurture, well opinions are like bums, everyone has one! lol

 

kim

[1sheepdoggal]

Bad decisions on the buyers part, not enough research, breeder making bad breeding choices, bla bla bla. In my mind what it all boils down to is another breeder of Border Collies that is breeding for all the wrong reasons, and I hope to hell one way or another it does come back and bite her in the ass come judgment day. Good, bad, indifferent dogs, this breeder is not breeding for working ability, is not out on the feild proving her dogs, and is there for, IMO no better than any other back yard breeder or puppy mill that turns out shit for dogs and calls them Border Collies.

[Root Beer]

And jen gave her opinion . . . i am now giving mine, it just happens to go the other way.

 

My point of disagreement with you was not regarding your expression of your own opinion and experience with the kennel, but on the notion that Jen's post was somehow disrespectful to those who have dogs from the RS kennel who happen to have good temperaments and are sans serious health issues.

 

KWIM?

 

the nature vs nurture, well opinions are like bums, everyone has one! lol

 

Keeping my comment to myself.

[jdarling]

Kim, Jen wasn't willing to post the copy of the contract she signed, but I was looking at yours. Is yours similar to that of RS ... especially with respect to health issues?

 

(By the way, that's a tough contract. I wouldn't qualify right from the first sentence under "Agreement." But especially not about the parts like the dog would be co-owned, neutered, his/her name must follow your theme, I'd have to hip test, eye test, and elbow test a dog I am not sure I really own and can't breed, I couldn't let my dog ride in the back of my truck in the crates that are securely strapped to the bed because it might kill a dog I only own 1/2 of technically, and if I have an accidental litter, you come and confiscate the dog? LMAO! Do people actually sign that poopie?)

[Journey]

Kim, your contract is a bit outdated IMO. The Spay/Neuter clause could cause harm to a dog (too young), the vaccination protocol you require is not within current US guidelines and if someone wanted to nail me for leaving a dog unattended in my own back yard......I have to give you credit, you at least try to work your dogs on stock but you don't breed for anything other than sport and brag about 4.0 FB times.....

 

Jens comments were factual, however, you still didn't answer my question as to what she said that is slander.

[standsurebcs]

really not worth my time, this is apparently going to be just plain attack mode, and i have better things to do

 

jen has her view, i have mine and you all have yours, for right or wrong.

 

attacks tend to follow someone whos opinion just may be right . . .

 

signing off a very vicious list . . .

 

kim

 

who is VERY proud of her contract and if you wouldn't sign it, well, you know where you can stick that comment!

apparently my parents brought me up better, language like that isn't acceptable in my world

[jdarling]

I have been forwarded the following language from the RS contract. Jen ... is this the pertinent part of the contract you signed?

 

(I'm not sure if the typos are accurate, but I'm leaving them in.)

 

The puppy will have had it’s first set of shots, eye exam and dewormed. A shot record will be provided. The breeder shall not be responsible for any medical expensed incurred after purchase.

 

Both sire and dam are OFA good and eyes CERFED. Both parents are CEA/CH tested as normal. If the dog has any defects such as, but not limited to, OCD, PRA, CEA, HIP DYSPLASIA, EPILEPSY, etc., the Breeder/Co-Owner will not be held liable and owes no compensation to the Purchasing Owner/Co-Owner. As a reputable breeder who stands by their Rising Sun line, compensation (or replacement) will be considered on an individual basis.

 

If the dog ends up with Hip Dysplayshia the dog must be Neutered or Spayed. The breeder is not to be held responsible for any expenses related to the raising or training of the dog prior to the hip and eye testing.

 

** The buyer agrees that if this male or female is allowed to produce/sire puppies, the Border Collie that it is bred with must be OFA certified and CERF tested normal. Buyers initial _______.

 

If at any time during the dog's life, it is no longer wanted, the breeder has first option to purchase the dog back at no more than “Half” of the original purchase price. The buyer pays the cost of shipping the dog back.

[jdarling]

language like that isn't acceptable in my world

 

My apologies. Post edited for your viewing pleasure.

 

signing off a very vicious list . . .

 

Yes ... the list you accidentally so timely happened upon? Riiiiiiiight.

 

 

Edited to add:

 

Looking at this again ... you chastise me for my choice of cuss word ... which happened to be the very substance that comes out of the orifice you implied I could stick my comment. And ... you said earlier ... and I quote ... "now you know how people like me feel when you crap on a line we enjoy." So tell me again, your parents raised you better ... than what???? I guess I just used the wrong 4-letter word for er, um ... the substance.

[BustopherJones]

I always recommend to people breaking into the breed, to go with either a rescue (if they are looking for more of a companion dog)...

Where were you with your advice when I needed you?

 

Seriously, Rebecca, I admit that I did not join this board until after I had already purchased Annie from a breeder (a little late, I know). I wanted a companion dog; so I relied on my vet to help me find a premier local breeder. If I had known then what I know now, I would have followed your advice, and gotten a dog from NEBCR. With that said, I would certainly second your suggestion to anyone planning to obtain a Border Collie for companion purposes; until I joined this board, I did not realize how many great dogs are out there in the rescue network that need homes. (And with the wonderful experience I had with Missy, I should have known better.)

 

Of all sad words of tongue and pen,

the saddest are, "It might have been..."

[jenkshipley]

[i know the pup that Jen just got. That litter has resource guarding issues and “Jane” (not real name of pup) is [b]very [/b]dog aggressive and had boundaries issues.

 

Jane does not resource guard in my home. After three days, she eats in the kitchen with my three bitches, shares toys and any of my dogs can take anything she has from her including marrow bones and pressed rawhide. I think that Jane had a incident with an adult dog that has caused the fear issues with new dogs. None of the other puppies in the litter have this issue. Jane was intially and has remained totally appropriate with all three of my bitches and my mother's male dog who comes frquently to my home. She is fearful when meeting new dogs outside of my home, but is certainly not aggressive.

 

The people who had her “Adam and Eve” worked very hard at trying to resolve the issues.

 

Yes they did an excellent job of trying to correct the issues. and I feel they absolutely did the right thing not deciding to keep a puppy that wasn't working well for them or their household. Their first Border Collie is a much different type of dog then this puppy. I also know litter mates to that dog.

 

Jane would lunge at dogs at dog sport events, the same as your Fever did. The other pups are resource guarding. So why did you get a pup with the lunging at people during a dog sport events as your Fever?

 

You have never met Fever, seen Fever, interacted with Fever nor do you have any idea whatsoever what has been done to try to work with Fever's issues. Jane's issues are much, much less severe then Fever's ingrained, line specific, unfixable, temperament issues that make her highly anxious and very environmentally stressed. Fever didn't not exhibit any of these issues until she was over 16 months old.

 

NOT that I have any idea why this has anything to do with Fever's breeder or the issue with her breeder, but I have agreed, as I stated before to try out and work with this puppy to see if I feel the issues are temperament issues or something that can be rectified with training. So far I have seen nothing that would indicate to me that this puppy cannot be worked with to overcome her fear of new dogs, probably created by an incident with a dog and not a genetic, temperament flaw that exists in multiple, related dogs, like Fever. She has great dog skills with dogs she knows, understands dog language and takes suitable correction from any one of my three bitches without incident and without the correction overly effecting her. This is not a dog aggression problem, this is a fear of getting corrected problem.

 

If I do see something that I feel is not fixable or that I feel I cannot correct I have already made arrangements with the breeder to take the puppy back at their expense.

 

Why did I consider trying out this puppy? I felt bad for everyone involved in the situation and what could it hurt? I am evaluating this puppy as a possibility for myself. I am confident in my training skills and experiences and ability to realistically evaluated this puppy. I have, as I have also previously stated, fostered numerous dogs who ended up in shelters or rescues due to supposed behavior issues who I found had no real issues other then the need for training, something that cannot possibly be determined until one has some time and opportunity to work with the dog.

[jenkshipley]

[ Five months, in my opinion, seems almost as great a gamble of future "potential" as two months.

 

Yes true, as is a year old, 8 month old, 18 month old dog. There is no way to tell until a year to two years of training is put in what level of success a dog/handler team (this is a team sport) will achieve. Any dog is a gamble.

 

At five months, based on knowledge of the structure and drive level of related dogs I can be reasonably sure that this dog will take well to training for agility. I can determine soundness of structure, which will include x-rays. I can determine willingness and enthusiasm for working with me. I can determine how well the puppy interacts with my own dogs in the home. I can determine focus, toy drive, the ability to assimilate and process information, how well asked for behavior is understood and repeated, I can tell a lot.

 

Any dog, whether I adopted the dog to work stock or train for agility is a gamble. No dog is a sure thing. If I want a sure thing, I'll need to change sports, maybe NASCAR.

 

My issue with FEVER is that Fever cannot even actually participate due to temperament and health issues. Forget what level of success she can achieve.

 

 

When you've made your decision, you sort of cross your fingers and hope!

 

 

Yes, with a healthy, normal, not temperamentally unsound dog, you can do all of those things. You can also not achieve the level of success that you had hoped for. At least the dog was capable of working towards that goal.

 

If I find this puppy as I stated quite a few times to have a real temperament issue, it will go back. I won't have raised it until is was an adult and then had to deal with genetic temperament disorders that appeared and social maturity.

 

Maybe I am a little crazy for offering to try to work with this puppy. I am certainly not crazy enough to keep her if I find her truly problematic. So far, I really have not. Keep in mind, it has been three days.

[jenkshipley]

[]

Kim, Jen wasn't willing to post the copy of the contract she signed,

 

 

No, not unwilling, just moved since looking at it and cannot find it. It is somewhere in my office. As I said before, I am sure that RS has a signed copy of the contract I signed. They obviously monitor the boards, they can feel free to post it.

[jenkshipley]

I have been forwarded the following language from the RS contract. Jen ... is this the pertinent part of the contract you signed?

 

(I'm not sure if the typos are accurate, but I'm leaving them in.)

 

 

Yes, that looks accurate and yes the do suggest that they may compensate the owner. Funny how I didn't even get a response and have never once been offered anything during Fever's entire lifetime of issues other then to send her back. If RS wants to produce the email that offered me even a refund or partial refund upon return, I'd like to see it.

[jenkshipley]

i also have a RS dog, and she is, incidentally, a littermate to fever's mother.

 

Then your lucky she isn't temperamentally unsound.

 

she came thru pretty much unscathed.

 

Again, lucky you!

 

 

 

perhaps taking even some responsibility would be order?

 

Yes, I manufactured IBD and I caused my dog to have a seizure and despite living in a household with very solid and sound dogs, I also secretly trained Fever to bite people.

 

 

the people i sell to wouldn't care if the dog never played, they purchase a family member, not an athlete.

 

Hopefully they will also not care, if you are breeding Fever's Aunt if the pup ends up with severe temperament issues, IBD or has seizures. Good luck with that.

 

 

 

your new puppy has a history that is beyond scary? probably not very good . . . now you know how people like me feel when you crap on a line we enjoy.

 

Not yet "my" new puppy and I am already well aware of the issues with this puppy since the breeder put me in touch with the current owner and also told me about the rest of the litter, I know quite a few people with related dogs and am friends with people who are friends with the breeder and I always welcome any information. Good luck with your dogs Kim.

[Eileen Stein]

Once again I am closing this thread. I wish I had closed it two pages ago -- in fact, I will probably delete everything since then inasmuch as I don't see what it has to do with anything, it is repetitive, and the meanness factor is off the charts. I don't think any poster should tell others to stop posting, but if ever it were justified to post "Enough," this would be the place.