Reputable breeders in my area?

[afrancis]

... I know that the image of border collies is very different to the working reality (people truly think that smooth coats, prick ears, various colours or shapes means cross-bred- hence all the rubbish about how working border collies have changed so much in recent years)...

 

 

I have been following this discussion with great interest and many things occur to me.

 

1. What's great about this forum is that the participants are so varied in experience and often, opinions. This is, of course, a good reflection of the real world.

2. When people come to this forum for information, they know (if they've read the sticky) what the commonly held opinion is (here on this Board) regarding the philosophy of bc breeding re: working ability.

3. When people ask opinions of this Board, they are interested enough to be asking and will in the end make up their own minds. We, of course, will try our darnest to persuade them to enter the fold ...

4. In a perfect world, all rescued border collies would have loving homes and all border collies yet to be born would be given the chance to fulfill their destiny as working dogs. And if they didn't cut it doing this, they would live their lives as loved and busy pets.

 

I love that this thread has generated so much passion and analysis. I love that so many long-standing members have given so much of their time patiently and succinctly (and yes, even sarcastically) answering questions. And I know that this question of the border colllie's relevance as a working dog and the desire to keep its breeding as directed as possible has been going on since I was last on the Boards 15 years ago and way earlier.

 

In regards to the above quote, my dog Skye has prick ears and I always get, "She must be crossed with GSD to have those ears" which I patiently try to explain that border collies come in all shapes and sizes, and its not what they look like that makes them what they are. Anyway, I have no idea of her heritage because she (and my previous bc) came to me after being discarded by someone else. Skye, I suspect, was from a farm litter nearby -- brought home by a child, kept in the kitchen, and then relinquished by the father a week later at 7 weeks old. How could I not take her home with me?

 

Anyway, AllieMackie, you're in my city. I'm going to the Sheepdog Trials in Kingston this summer. You should go, if you haven't been already. Kingston holds its arms wide open for bcs that week and even my shameless dog gets cooed over as a possible "actual, working dog"!! What a treat for her and me! I can't tell you the number of times her good behaviour has gotten us into places dogs normally aren't allowed and people ask if border collies are good family dogs...I am quick to say not necessarily. It takes an owner who's really on the ball and has lots of time.

 

Ailsa

[AllieMackie]

Anyway, AllieMackie, you're in my city. I'm going to the Sheepdog Trials in Kingston this summer. You should go, if you haven't been already. Kingston holds its arms wide open for bcs that week and even my shameless dog gets cooed over as a possible "actual, working dog"!! What a treat for her and me! I can't tell you the number of times her good behaviour has gotten us into places dogs normally aren't allowed and people ask if border collies are good family dogs...I am quick to say not necessarily. It takes an owner who's really on the ball and has lots of time.

 

Thanks afrancis! Amanda Milliken also invited me to those same trials (well, not invited, more like "you should come to this because it's awesome!") and I think I'll definitely check them out. I'm also, as I mentioned, going to the sheep shearing festival at the Ottawa Agriculture Museum over Victoria Day weekend. I'll be speaking to Werner, possibly other herding/breeders, meeting their dogs, and meeting a handful of people from the Ottawa Valley Border Collie Club, hopefully. I'm also a knitter, so I can check out the Knitting Guild and the OVWSG (Ottawa Valley Weavers and Spinners Guild). Sounds like a fun-filled day for me!

 

EDIT: Also fun - apparantly Werner holds a herding fun day or two every year at his farm - basically, anyone who's never(or rarely) worked sheep with their BC can bring them out, let them out and try their hand with the sheep, to try out their instincts. Sounds fun!

[SoloRiver]

And I still think it's an unfair opinion, and that the dogs are still great dogs, just bred for a different purpose.

 

The reason I have Border Collies is that it is important to me to have dogs with the constellation of traits, mostly behavioral, that come from selecting for a working dog. When you start selecting for something else, you end up with dogs that have different traits. When they have different traits, they are no longer true to "type" and they are no longer true examples of Border Collies.

 

It's like saying, "I don't understand why you can't breed for 30 pound Chihuahuas and have them still be great Chihuahuas." The entire point of Chihuahuas is to be small companions. Many would argue that selecting for giant Chihuahuas means that eventually you don't really have Chihuahuas anymore. You'd have a new medium-sized breed that came from Chihuahua stock, but are no longer Chihuahuas.

 

Sport Collies can be very nice dogs, I do agility and I have met plenty of them, but they aren't Border Collies. When you change the selection regime, you change the dog. When you change the dog, when you change THE SINGLE MOST DEFINING CHARACTERISTIC ABOUT THE DOG, you no longer have the same breed. The point of Border Collies is that they are working dogs. Without going out and working dogs yourself you will not understand the difference between a dog that has it and one that does not, but when you DO go out and work a dog yourself you will never forget it.

 

My first Border Collie is a rescue. He was my first agility dog, my first rally dog, my first flyball dog (well, we took a few classes anyway) and my first working dog. He is also my once of a lifetime dog. He has holes -- big ones -- in his working ability (not to mention his temperament) but he is the love of my life all the same. He has working dogs behind him, but his breeder was not selecting for good working dogs. I am willing to bet that I love this dog MORE than almost everyone else who owns a dog loves his or her dog, yes, I will say that, because I am utterly besotted with this dog to a degree that is probably not even healthy. I am capable of adoring this dog and yet recognizing his flaws, and that he is not an ideal example of a Border Collie. I find it almost as humorous that KCKeller thinks we don't love our dogs, as I find the fact that (s)he thinks Corgis are great herding dogs.

[FoxgloveBC]

She's still sports bred, if she's bred primarily for sports homes. The issue isn't what lines the dogs have behind them, its the intent of the breeding.

 

I have a few dogs here. They are all working bred, most of them have successful trial dogs as their parents/grandparents. All our dogs work on the farm. Some are better than others, each has certain strengths and weaknesses.

 

So, if I decide to breed Spot, with the aim of producing dogs to work on surrounding farms and to give me a new trial dog, I will look at his strengths and weaknesses in terms of stock work, and choose a mate that I believe will complement these traits, to produce the best working sheepdogs possible. If they aren't that pretty, or they don't have much drive for things like toys or agility, its not going to matter.

 

But- if I'm breeding for the agility market , agility traits will matter more than working ones. I will choose the best mate for Spot in terms of producing fast, driven, and probably attractive agility dogs, and compromise with other things, like working traits. That doesn't mean Spot and his mate aren't great sheepdogs, they may well both be very good dogs on stock- but they probably won't compliment each other as well as a different combination, and as a result, their offspring are likely to be less consistently good as stockdogs than if those from the first mating, the "working" one.

 

That doesn't mean there won't be the odd good sheepdog among them, or that they will all be useless, just that the overall collection of working traits is likely to be weaker or less consistent than those I'd expect from a working breeding. Each generation of sports (or show, or pet) breeding will weaken things a little more, and eventually you'll have dogs that may well feature great working dogs in their pedigree, but are not close to being working bred.

 

Does that make sense? BTW, I'm sure Foxy's still a LOVELY dog This isn't about individual dogs, its about concepts of breeding.

 

The other thing to note is that most sports breeders don't actually demand that much of their dogs in terms of stockwork. They may have a few livestock and do a few trials, but if they do agility to any high level they are usually very busy with that. So they may not be assessing their dogs' working traits as accurately as someone whose only concern is working livestock.

 

oh it makes perfect sense! I really do get the importance of working dogs as well. That is why I got as close to the best working lines that I could get all while still concentrating on agility. We have some high goals if me and her work out as a great team. I would like to go for Nationals and try out for the World team (hey at least have fun and try out) I am young and a really fast handler right now, so I might as well try for it while I am fast still.

 

I really want to try her out on sheep when she turns a year old. If she shows really great promise, I will try to go as far as a few trials. I really love seeing dogs work, its amazing and I love the intensity and the beauty of a dog truly at work.

 

I know that Foxys sire was sent back to his breeder for further training and I even talked to him about how he was on stock and such. I really looked into the breeding and I decided that she was everything I could want (I really wanted good working lines, and also have a concentration on dog sports mainly)

 

I was just stating that I dont think that ALL sports breeders are doing a bad job, in fact I really really like some of the ones I have seen. But yes, there are some really awful sports breeders that are really losing the sense of why they should really breed. It is quite scary!!! That was pretty much what I was saying! =)

[stockdogranch]

You can judge it and still call it like it is.

 

Exactly--that's why I can say what I do about those trials. I have first-hand knowledge,

 

A

[Sue R]

I find it amusing that many people who want (or "produce") sport dogs carry on about having "working lines". Just breeding two dogs together that come from "working lines" says nothing about the breeding being good or a suitable pairing. I am sure that virtually all the folks that do produce for the sport market (and pet market) are not breeding for any of the right reasons and are breeding just for the market (and perhaps their own idea of what constitutes a "good dog", which has nothing to do with what constitutes a good Border Collie).

[kelpiegirl]

I have run a dog in a couple of asta trials- a spin off group from asca. ASTA upper levels ain't easy- that's for sure- we aren't able to do them- yet! But, I will repeat what I have heard other say about asca, and that is that until and unless they remove the penchant for versatility in the dogs, and make the stockdog program just about the dog moving the stock, they have kept the bar low. Also, having titles awarded leads to the lowest possible level to attain to get that title. Remove the titles, work the dogs in fields, and you will see that people will begin training their dogs to a higher level- and the working aussies out there, and yes, I have seen some nice ones for sure, will then finally be able to really work.

 

The only "titles" awarded for "herding" are AKC, ASCA or AHBA. For all three venues, the level of competence is the same--somewhere between none and minimal. Super dog-broke sheep following the handler around the arena, while a dog just happens to be in the arena also. None of this qualifies as WORKING STOCK,

 

A

[Smokjbc]

The only "titles" awarded for "herding" are AKC, ASCA or AHBA. For all three venues, the level of competence is the same--somewhere between none and minimal. Super dog-broke sheep following the handler around the arena, while a dog just happens to be in the arena also. None of this qualifies as WORKING STOCK,

 

A

 

 

LOL... like someone's pet baby goats they had in Perris? Those were good just for entertainment value, let alone valid "working stock". I was proud though my Nellie was able to get them off my legs at least but felt bad she had to nip those cute little buggers from time to time.

 

I did go to one AHBA trial at Rancho Oso where the dog broke sheep were not available for the trial so they used "real" Suffolks- someone's breeding stock at a $600/head replacement value. WHOWEE!! I actually had a blast at that trial, but many people were getting run over by sheep and a ton of people pulled out after watching the first run or two. Those sheep were not dog broke and the trial had to go through a learning curve to set up exhausts and stuff properly so that more dogs had a chance. My dogs did well, but in the arena portion, I'm sure more than a few dogs thought they were doing a take pen on angry elephants, not their normal little sheepies.

[jdarling]

Well, it's a bummer that KCKeller won't come back and fill us in with the details of her vast stock experience. I was going to ask her, also, if THIS is her kennel. I just searched "Border Collies" and "Keller" and ... lo and behold ... there's an AKC breeder in Keller, Texas. Of course, I'm not saying it IS her ... just thought it was coincidental.

[PSmitty]

Well, it's a bummer that KCKeller won't come back and fill us in with the details of her vast stock experience. I was going to ask her, also, if THIS is her kennel. I just searched "Border Collies" and "Keller" and ... lo and behold ... there's an AKC breeder in Keller, Texas. Of course, I'm not saying it IS her ... just thought it was coincidental.

 

I found that yesterday, too.

[BustopherJones]

I am willing to bet that I love this dog MORE than almost everyone else who owns a dog loves his or her dog, yes, I will say that, because I am utterly besotted with this dog to a degree that is probably not even healthy. I am capable of adoring this dog and yet recognizing his flaws, and that he is not an ideal example of a Border Collie.

I'll take that bet!

[1sheepdoggal]

I dont think it is Bustopher, and Jodi. KCKeller made way to many references to corgies. Id suspect that whoever they are, that you would see some reference to corgies on a site of thiers as well as BC"s. Also they said they ran a rescue and boarding (I think) kennel, and did training, that sounded like on a rather large scale. Also no reference to the dogs being shown world wide, and having championships. For folks like that, titles sell pups, so it would look good to advertise past and present champs, titles, and that they've toured Europe winning with thier champion dogs. I looked to but didnt come up with much. I think that site was a bit to small time for how Keller was talking. Guess we'll just have to see if they come back for more discussion.

[Bo Peep]

I don't think we can "guess" who this person is, or even if it's a male or female. The internet is a strange thing. Try googling your own name- you'd be surprised what comes up. LOL.

[Shelley86]

I just wanted to pitch in that I've read through this entire thread to date, and out of everything said, I've made up my mind that rescue is the only way I'm going from now on. For a long time I didn't understand the difference in all the Border Collie breeders, but I fully understand what everyone is talking about now. For that, I thank each and every one of you! It probably has saved me from making some bad decisions in the future in regards to where I get my next dog, and I've almost completely abandoned the idea of getting a puppy when there are plenty of border collies out there that are still young with many many good years ahead of them.

 

All my previous dogs are rescues, and now that I've learned a lot more about the breed and 'breeders' out there, I'm confident my heart dog will be in a rescue waiting for me when the time is right I want to participate in various dog sports with my future border collie, but I've always thought that the sports should be something fun to do with your current dogs. I really can't wait to be able to adopt, I'm hoping that I'll be able to soon, and I truly feel that a rescue dog will be everything I'm looking for.

[Bo Peep]

IF I just decide to go the pet route, my next BC will be from rescue and NOT from the pound. I am glad I got Bailey and saved her, but have paid the price. IF I choose "herding" of course, it will be from my breeder that I well respect. I really doubt, at my age and circumstances, that I want to go through the "puppy stage" again. I don't want my dogs to out live me. I'm not really that old, but some days, I sure feel like it.

 

I had to wake my dog up to have "sprinkle fun" now that I live in a development. This is a far cry from what I wanted. No more sheep, no more "herding in our PJ's before work" Maybe I should get a golden retriever. Alas, I am hooked.

[BustopherJones]

I dont think it is Bustopher

???

[jdarling]

???

 

Oops. She meant Paula and I.

 

Actually, it doesn't matter who KCKeller is ... she knows the board well enough to not want to identify herself because she knows that she'll be called to the carpet and would actually have to back up her bullsh*t. But she can't. If her dogs were that wonderful, she would happily identify herself, and if they were such good workers, they would be known in the trialing world ... no matter which trialing world you participate in.

[afrancis]

My first Border Collie is a rescue. He was my first agility dog, my first rally dog, my first flyball dog (well, we took a few classes anyway) and my first working dog. He is also my once of a lifetime dog. He has holes -- big ones -- in his working ability (not to mention his temperament) but he is the love of my life all the same. He has working dogs behind him, but his breeder was not selecting for good working dogs. I am willing to bet that I love this dog MORE than almost everyone else who owns a dog loves his or her dog, yes, I will say that, because I am utterly besotted with this dog to a degree that is probably not even healthy. I am capable of adoring this dog and yet recognizing his flaws, and that he is not an ideal example of a Border Collie. I find it almost as humorous that KCKeller thinks we don't love our dogs, as I find the fact that (s)he thinks Corgis are great herding dogs.

 

Bustopher was referring to this bet, not anything about KCKellar. Right, Bustopher?

Ailsa

[BustopherJones]

You are correct, Ailsa. Thank you.