The Silver Fox Experiment

[CMP]

It's about time someone brought up Sheila Grew's classification of Border Collie working styles based on their looks. In her famous Key Dogs of the Border Collie Family she described four types based on phenotype. I found that idea fascinating when I first read it many years ago and find it so today as well.

 

Amy

 

I also found that a fascinating read. Just the other day I was referring to it to establish which phenotype my puppy fits into and whether she's true to that type (insofar as one can tell in a 7 month old). She could be Old Hemp himself, based purely on build and coloring. Anyhooo ... it *is* a fascinating read.

[RemsMom]

But because it's someone who was working in politically dangerous areas at a time when he had already had a family member killed for that reason, I am inclined to think it was more than that.

I agree that this makes more sense than what I read. I was always so interested in the changes that happened to the foxes that I never focused much on why the experiment was started. Breeding tamer animals on a farm doesn't seem like such a complicated problem that farmers would need to call in a scientist.

[Sue R]

I'd love a chance to have and read that book but in the meantime, I have noticed that many of the expert shepherds of the British Isles can look at a dog and tell its "type" and predict its working style with quite a bit of accuracy.

 

It's about time someone brought up Sheila Grew's classification of Border Collie working styles based on their looks. In her famous Key Dogs of the Border Collie Family she described four types based on phenotype. I found that idea fascinating when I first read it many years ago and find it so today as well.

 

Amy

[Tess's Girl]

I recently read a book called The Genius of Dogs. It's written by Brian Hare who is the director of the Duke Canine Cognition Center.

 

It basically discusses what we know about how dogs think according to the current research. It discusses the fox experiment and experiments that show the difference in what dogs know innately and what wild canines know. For example, dogs are innately able to follow human gestures, but wolves can't.

 

It's a very good read. Not overly technical for those who don't have a background in science, but also not too watered down for those that do. It discusses most of what is being discussed on this thread and more. I think everyone would really enjoy it.

[Mark Billadeau]

The long answer has to do with genetic linkage and it is probably necessary to assume (i.e guess!) that whatever gene mutation(s) that cause(s) droopy ears & short faces is close to a gene associated with 'domesticated behaviour'.

Alternatively, the foxes which displayed the least amount of fear of humans (in the isolated gene pool of this fur farm) also happened to carry the recessive genes for physical features that became apparent when they were line-bred while selecting for the least amount of human fear.

[Maxi]

Alternatively, the foxes which displayed the least amount of fear of humans (in the isolated gene pool of this fur farm) also happened to carry the recessive genes for physical features that became apparent when they were line-bred while selecting for the least amount of human fear.

Yes, of course ..

 

BUT I am assuming that once the physical features have altered, they remain 'associated' with the domesticated behaviour. ...and I am doing this because currently I have not read anything to suggest that this is not the case!... (erm, Mark, before you or anyone else comment on this assumption, I do appreciate that this is a somewhat weak argument because it is like saying "I've only seen white crows and therefore only white crows exist"!!)

 

However, you may not be aware that The Institute of Cytology and Genetics (ICG) claim they maintain the silver fox populations as 'outbred populations' . See their BMC Genomics 2011 paper (3rd paragraph in the "background".. and the associated references).

Indeed (and somewhat amazingly) they claim 'A relatively low inbreeding level (0.02–0.07) has been maintained over the course of the project' in this Biol J Linn Soc Lond. paper (5th paragraph of the introduction and associated references)

 

It is on the basis of this assertion that I suggest that there is close genetic linkage between the gene mutation causing the the physical alterations and at least one gene associated with domesticated behaviour.

 

In contrast,

- IF the genes causing the physical features were on different chromosomes (or on the same chromosome but separated by some distance) from that causing domesticated behaviour

 

- AND the behavoural effect is the ONLY selection criteria,

 

- THEN it is probable that the 2 phenotypes would separate into different offspring during their outcross breeding programme (..even if the one(s) associated with the altered physical appearance is/are bred to homozygosity).

[Mark Billadeau]

I've not reviewed the published data on this study as extensively as you; I'll have to defer to your insights on this.

[Eileen Stein]

That is really interesting, Maxi -- thanks for posting.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

In the mid/late 1980's, Viv Billingham came over to judge Ethel Conrad's Blue Ridge trial and since other hosts wouldn't hire a woman judge, Viv put on a clinic to recover expenses. Relatively more of the dogs had UK parents/grandparents than would be the case today. I was astonished to see Viv guess at the ancestry of dogs she'd never seen before and when she was (usually) right, she'd describe the dog's working habits before seeing it work.

 

Donald McCaig

[Maxi]

IMO Viv Billingham Parkes is an exceptional woman and shepherd who deserves much respect.

Mr McCaig's description of this remarkable skill to predict a dog's behaviour from it's looks ( and pedigree) is one of the reasons I would like to have the opportunity to read Stella Grew's books that amc mentioned in post 25. Unfortunately, they have been out of print for many years and I can only find short snippets on the Internet.

 

ETA. Maybe... just maybe, my (very hypothetical) musings on linking (some of) the genes of silver fox behaviour with those determining some of its physical appearance could actually have some practical relevance to sheepdoggers.

[CMP]

IMO Viv Billingham Parkes is an exceptional woman and shepherd who deserves much respect.

Mr McCaig's description of this remarkable skill to predict a dog's behaviour from it's looks ( and pedigree) is one of the reasons I would lke to have the opportunity to read Stella Grew's books that amc mentioned in post 25. Unfortunately, they have been out of print for many years and I can only find short snippets on the Internet.

My father kept an extensive library of "dog books". I shall check through and see what I can find - maybe I can convince one of the young cousins to do some scanning

[Maxi]

thanks CMP