Border Collies and Chasing

[Maralynn]

I'm trying not to take over D'elle's thread so I'm replying to a few posts in a new thread.

 

RE: chasing. Dogs do it because they've learned it is fun and exciting. Yes, dogs with higher prey drive tend to pick up on it faster, but BCs are not all about prey drive (neither is any other good working dog, bit I digress). They are about biddability and control, too. You watch the finals yesterday? It strongly goes against prey drive to leave one group of sheep and go look for another one. It also goes against prey drive to control the sheep without diving in a eating them.

 

RE: ingrained behaviors. These are no fun to deal with, especially when you didn't create them. But most of them can be dealt with. And IMO serious ones like car chasing call for serious measures. Like getting in the dogs face with a "what the heck do you think you're doing" response. I had a cat biter. He'd see a cat and run up and bite them. I got in his face and used prong collar corrections. I don't tolerate going after cats Period. Stop. Took several months to deal with. Obsessed over them to the point if you spoke a cat's name his loose all focus and start looking for it. It took about 2 years and lots of motivational and focus work to stop the obsessing.

 

If your two dogs feed off each other, then walk and work them separately. Car chasing (or animal chasing) is a big deal and must be dealt with accordingly.

 

RE: working bred dogs being happy not working. The above mentioned dog is a very nice working bred dog, very keen for stock, too. I have sheep. He works sheep only once in a blue moon. His main job is SAR work and he is very happy and content doing that. He'll work through a sheep pasture and ignore the sheep doing a search if that's what I tell him to do. Another example would be Kat's Dazzle dog. Nice, working bred dog who does agility, tricks and stars in videos. There is no reason a BC can not be happy as an active pet or sport dog. If they're not happy, then either you as a trainer need to improve your skills, or you got the wrong breed of dog.

[Root Beer]

Is this discussion being moved here? I'm going to repeat my post from the other thread, since the discussion is to be moved . . .

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

I think, Christina, one thing that you might be overlooking is an individual dog's ability to learn and exercise self control.

 

A dog can be very driven to chase, but if the dog has self control, he or she can keep that drive in check. It doesn't mean that the dog is bored or uninterested, just that the dog has the ability to choose to refrain from chasing the car, etc.

 

My youngest is a working bred Border Collie and he has plenty of drive. I give him appropriate outlets for that drive and he is an extremely happy pet. Sure, he would enjoy working stock (he had the opportunity to be introduced and has had maybe 10 - 15 sessions in the round pen with sheep), but that is not something that I enjoy, so he doesn't get to do it. But he isn't pining for sheep. He knows how to direct his interest into other things in life. He relishes the opportunity to train with me for sports, to play games out in the yard, to interact and play with my other dogs, to swim, to hike, to visit with his human friends at training classes, to assist me as I teach training classes, to accompany me around the house and property as I do everyday chores, etc. He puts 100% of his mind into being a good pet and companion and he is fantastic at it. Probably the best of all four of my dogs. He is an active and engaged pet. He would not make a good pet for someone who really wanted a couch potato and left him completely to his own devices. But for me he is the perfect pet.

 

When we adopted him, he was a car chaser. He was triggered by any motion, actually - cars, other dogs running, dogs doing Agility, etc.

 

I found out how to teach him self control. Now I can trust him, off leash, in our driveway. There is no barrier between us and the road where cars might go by - some very fast, and horses and buggies, as well. He doesn't chase them - he is safe in that space. Not because he lacks drive, but because he has learned self control.

 

Granted, there are individual dogs of all types who can find it challenging to learn self control. FWIW, this is true of people, as well. Some people really struggle with self control, others find exercising self control to be second nature. So, there certainly are dogs who might struggle with the ability to exercise self control throughout their lives.

 

I don't have extensive first hand experience with working bred Border Collies, but based on my experience with this one, I would choose a working bred Border Collie as a pet and sport partner without any worries about the dog being happy as a pet and sports partner. I actually would expect that a working bred Border Collie, generally speaking, would have a greater capacity for learning self control than one bred for other purposes. I am generalizing, and I know that is a dangerous thing to do. But that is where I stand on the matter.

 

I don't know if that helps, but I thought it might be something for you to consider.

[Ooky]

I actually couldn't agree more with Kristine's post in the previous thread, and if Christina is still interested in discussing it I would like to reiterate the points made in that post to her.

 

There is prey drive, there is the drive to control movement, and there is teaching the dog self control. These are all totally separate things. I have known many working bred dogs with a lot of drive to both chase and control movement, my own dog being one of them, who do not have any problems with chasing cars, "herding" children or other dogs, etc.

 

How do I know my dog would do these things if not taught self control? He *loves* chasing squirrels when he gets the chance (not very often, but wildlife biologists at my work like to use him to deter squirrels from our bird feeder). As a puppy he wanted to "herd" and chase the cats, and we put a stop to that. And he is totally neurotic about controlling the vacuum cleaner (which I recently found out my husband encourages so now I know why we are having such a hard time with that one), showing that these behaviors are there, IF you let them be.

 

As it is, he has no problem being off leash on a sidewalk next to a busy street. He does not chase squirels unless released to do so. He *never* herds children, cats, or other dogs now as he knows these things are completely unacceptable in any form. He also has good stock sense for a beginner and an incredible toy drive that makes it super easy to teach him disc dog tricks. So none of these things correlate. Was it hard to teach him these things? In my opinion no, because he has a very well-balanced temperment plus the ability to have self control, which I attribute in at least some small part to *having* a fair-to-good working breeding (i.e. not crazy sport breeding or poorly mish-mashed versatility crapshoot breeding). He just needed direction and consistency.

 

 

Also Maralyn's point about well-bred dogs being happy without being stockdogs is worth re-emphasizing as well. I'd hate to think of well-meaning people getting dogs from AKC or versatility breeders because they worry about the dog being unfulfilled. Even though my dog knew what he was missing, he was still happy, well-behaved, and loving during our entire hiatus related to pregnancy, recovering from surgery, and having a tiny baby around. Any training I could do with him was wonderful in his eyes and just lit him up. Even just taking him to work made him happy. These dogs just wnat to be with you, learn with you, train with you. That is all.

[muttlycrew]

I will go ahead and move mine over too, though I agree completely with Kristine about the self control/impulse control.

 

I know she is herding because I see her do this on one other non-sheep object- other dogs. Since I usually have my dogs with me while I'm out pet sitting, I stop by the dog park occasionally to let them burn some energy (and no, I'm not trying to get into the debate about dog parks- I've been going for years and mine do just fine there). This is where Maizee will herd the other dogs. She circles around those that stand still and chases those who do not. My question there is, would that mean when she circles she is herding and when she chases she is chasing?

 

I know it has been said before, but "herding" other dogs is being obnoxious and rude. It's been said better than this but I didn't want to hijack this thread. As for chasing, have you done or seen lure coursing? I have access to this on a regular basis and my high drive BC, Stella, (a long with the majority of BCs and herding breeds) chase and bite when it moves and when it stops moving, they circle and crouch. They are not herding it and the majority of people who watch the BCs do it automatically say "Look! They are herding it!!". They are trying to chase, bite, and "kill" the lure. The whole point of this "sport" is to tap into the dogs prey drive. Even my low drive girl, who would rather sit on the couch all day than play with toys or chase things in the yard, gets worked up over the lure.

 

FWIW Stella is very calm and biddable on stock. I can also have her (and all my dogs) off leash with stock, lure coursing, agility, Frisbee, small animals and know that they understand the boundaries and expectations. When my friends and I get together, a total of 18-25 dogs (a good majority BCs), none of us tolerate "herding" or showing any annoying "working" tendencies. It's obnoxious. All the dogs understand this and we rarely have issues. Note: This didn't happen overnight.

 

ETA: When I got Stella back in February, she had little to no impulse control. She would bark/scream and be obnoxious in agility class, she would lunge and bite the leash if she saw other dogs running after toys or doing some activity she was not doing, she would focus and "work" other dogs....the list went on. Since then I've done months of CU and her impulse control has gotten much better so that I can trust her off leash in those situations now. But we are by no means done and are no where near fixed.

 

[Cody & Duchess]

Does self control come with age? example - wanting to herd another animal and nip its back legs. Or does self control come from correction of this behavior. If age is part of the element - what age?

[Maralynn]

Does self control come with age? example - wanting to herd another animal and nip its back legs. Or does self control come from correction of this behavior. If age is part of the element - what age?

 

IMO, self control comes from training.

 

And very nice post, Kristine

[rushdoggie]

IMO, self control comes from training.

 

And very nice post, Kristine

 

Agreed, and in my experience it was better taught by not correcting it, but by controlling the things they wanted to get it, starting with simple things, ex. I don't let dogs who are screaming or out of control out of crates, I don't let dogs fly through the doors, they have to wait until they are called by name.

 

Once they start realizing that demonstrating self control gets them the things they want, I can start moving it up. We don't play agility if you cannot hold a calm start line. We don't play ball unless you wait for your name, and bring it back within ChuckIt reach. We don't get our supper bowls unless we can be calm and wait quietly for them.

 

You can totally teach a dog to have no control. I know this because I have to watch my husband or he will. I realized this when I noticed that when we walked in the door together, my well-trained dogs were screaming and shrieking and carrying on, and when I walked in the door by myself they were nearly quiet and standing, waiting. Why? they knew they would get let out by being calm if it was me, they also knew he would let them out if they were shrieking.

[Cody & Duchess]

Very well said Rushdoggie. Have higher expectations - get better results. I have probably been giving to much of a pass to the dog because of her age expecting her to pay attention with a little more age.

[Maralynn]

A self-control example - I would let Kenzi out of her kennel and her default would be wheee - and run circles around the property (my bad because I allowed it in the first place). So when I opened up her kennel, I'd put her on a leash and ask for eye contact. When I got the eye contact, then we'd continue on. Within just a few weeks I had a dog who would pop out of her kennel and automatically look expectantly at me in order to be released. So we've started on doing some heel work now after the initial focus

 

I'd also like to note that I don't recommend strong prong collar corrections (or strong corrections for that matter) for regular self-control. I used them on Kipp because I wanted to get the point across as strongly and clearly as possible that biting cats was.not.allowed. as I sure didn't want them getting hurt or killed. I feel strong corrections are warranted where there could be serious consequences (ie, death) for not nipping the problem in the bud.

[Gloria Atwater]

Greetings all ~

 

I'm pleased to see this topic continued in its own thread. I think it's important that people understand that "drive" in a border collie, of whatever kind, need not mean an out-of-control dog who acts out because he's "unfulfilled." Excellent discussion so far, I'm enjoying reading.

 

Rush, your post in particular is an excellent discussion of teaching a dog self control. ALL high-drive dogs, of whatever breed, must be taught this. In the dog world, elder dogs will educate a youngster in restraint. In our human world, we must do the same.

 

For example, hubby and I have a 4 month old Aussie from strong working lines. (Slash-V, Hangin' Tree, Crown Point, if anyone wonders.) Her impulse is ALWAYS to fling herself head-first towards food or any reward. If she doesn't get it, she'll yap at us. However, this isn't because she's a high-drive working dog. A calmer show Aussie can exhibit the same behavior. So, our job is to teach her restraint in everyday ways. At dinner time, she's the last one fed, and she must "sit" to get her bowl. Upon repetition, she now runs to her spot and sits eagerly, waiting until I give her the release. When we feed cookies, again she gets hers last, and gets a reprimand if she tries to grab from another dog. Now she's learning to wait in a (wiggly) sit, because she's learned that by waiting, she gets her reward. We've also taught her that opening the front gate doesn't mean she can bolt out. Instead, she must again sit and wait for the release. She's learning restraint because we teach it to her.

 

I'm using this illustration simply because our BCs are all 1 year or older, and they've passed from impulsive puppy behaviors into an understanding of self-restraint. It takes a lot of time and constant repetition ... but it works. The results are lovely. The sad thing is, not everyone can make it happen, for whatever reason.

 

The single most frustrating thing with me regarding the Show collies is that some breeders have deliberately selected bloodlines with low work-drive, so as to have a quieter, less distractable dog in the ring. That bleeds over to folks looking for pet BCs, since they get the erroneous idea that working lines must be too hyper and hot for good companions. Training makes a good companion pet, not breeding out the soul of the working border collie.

 

Referring to discussion in the earlier Puppy thread, chasing and herding are NOT the same things. At no time on a trial field (or on the farm!) is chasing a good thing. The outrun is not a chase: it is a hunting movement, yes, but it's designed to circle and halt the "prey," not pull it down. The fetch is not a chase: it's bringing the "prey" back to the pack. (You.) And certainly there is no chase in driving, or we'll have sheep in the treetops. So when people label chasing as "herding" ... it's wrong. It's not the same thing. A pup may chase in early sheepdog training, (my Gael thought diving and biting was all the fun) but that's anxiety and excitement. That's not working. The dog is much more relaxed and happy when he finally learns he can control his stock without chasing. He is happy when we teach him the restraint to be calm and learn the correct way of going.

 

But if a person is not suited to a border collie's energy and intelligence, they should select another breed. We must not excuse the breeding of dumbed-down versions of border collies, simply to give people a calmer pet! My feeling is folks either step up and learn how to raise and train a border collie, or get some other kind of dog.

 

Hm, if I've gone off-course with this, please forgive me! I've been thinking about this topic since yesterday, so I guess I had a lot to say. Handing over the soap box to the next person!

Cheers ~

 

Gloria

[rushdoggie]

Training makes a good companion pet, not breeding out the soul of the working border collie dog.

 

Perfect, modified slightly and quoted for posterity.

 

[Christina]

A lot to reply to, so I'll try not to miss anything. Thank you for moving this topic, Maralynn.

 

I'm hesitant to use my experiences with my dogs as an example here, since that seemed to be frowned upon in the previous thread, but I'm going to do so anyway since I have no other way to explain what I've gone through with them and I really do need help- this seems to be more on topic, so maybe it will be okay? I do not want to seem self-serving in any way.

 

--

 

I got Maizee almost three years ago (Oct 2007) from Glen Highland Farm in NY. The rescue warned us that she was given up because she was herding a toddler and that she is a car chaser. I have since read here that dogs don't actually herd toddlers. I'm not entirely sure I agree with this, but since I haven't actually seen her near a toddler and I don't have any real experience with true working drive, I can't elaborate. I base my opinion on what I have seen her do to the car (she stares at it and circles until it moves). After bringing Maizee home, true to the warnings, she started herding the cats and cars. I have an invisible fence- not ideal, not my choice, and definitely not my preference. I also live on a corner lot, so I have plenty of cars that stop right next to the house since there is a stop sign on the lawn. When she started going after the cars that stopped at the sign, I did some research and came to the conclusion that the best way to prevent her from doing that was to simply prevent her from doing that. She was not allowed to go outside without somebody in the family present. Unfortunately, I am the only one willing to give her an earful if she does go after the cars. The rest of my family just watches with mild interest.

 

A little over a year later, I got Pilot. After he was trained on the invisible fence, he started chasing cars as well. Frustrated with this, I consulted a strictly positive reinforcement trainer because she was the only decent trainer that I personally knew. She helped me work with Pilot and told me to teach him the "look at that" game, where I ask him to look at cars as they pass by. Predictably, this didn't work. I then consulted my stockdog friend, who instructed me to give him hell for chasing the cars (of course, both of these methods were being used with both dogs). I tried getting in his face, calculated anger, the works. He would shut down, run to the door, and calm down until the next car drove by and it would start all over again. I still do this every single time he goes after a car. Obviously that isn't working either. Other trainers that I consulted had similar solutions. Another friend who trains Malinois for police work (or something of the sort) instructed me to use a shock collar. I purchased a decent shock collar to start training him on recall, which backfired because shock collars on soft Border Collies are a really stupid idea. Coupled with the fact that I have an invisible fence and shocking him within the fence would be confusing for him, I gave up on the shock collar idea and stuck with the "give em hell" plan. The only thing I have not tried is a prong collar.

 

The car chasing takes places in four main locations: In the yard, out on a walk, in the car, and in the house. House car chasing is reserved for pesky UPS trucks and motorcycles. Interestingly, I have noticed that taking Pilot away from Maizee for a long period of time (twenty-four hours or more) cuts back on his reactivity to passing vehicles, though he has a *thing* for bicycles that he came up with all on his own. There are days when they aren't getting enough exercise, and there are days when they get more than enough exercise. Generally their exercise includes hiking, disc work, agility, and mental stimulation. We do sometimes go to the dog park, though I'm beginning to wonder if that is really a good idea since it is permitting Maizee to be more obnoxious than productive with her herding of other dogs.

 

--

 

Maralynn, I agree with the entirety of your first post. Would you mind explaining in detail how you dealt with the corrections for cat chasing? Whether through this thread or PM, I would be very interested in hearing what worked for you.

 

I did watch part of the finals yesterday, so I can see what you mean about the herding drive going completely against prey drive. From what I've heard, the herding drive is a modified prey drive. Is that not correct, or is it so modified that it is unidentifiable as a prey drive?

 

Root Beer, how did you go about teaching your dog self control? I don't think self control is a problem for my dogs once they've learned it, since they have a solid sit/stay at the door (Pilot is occasionally naughty and needs to be told twice, but it's a work in progress).

 

Ooky,

 

I'd hate to think of well-meaning people getting dogs from AKC or versatility breeders because they worry about the dog being unfulfilled.

 

Agreed. Are there some dogs who are so driven to work that they would be unsatisfied in a pet home, simply because they obsess rather than work?

 

Rushdoggie, that is a fantastic point about retrieving being in line with impulse control (or at least, in line with training it). A lack of retrieving (which my dogs definitely lack) is the fault of the owner/trainer and not the dog. Especially since retrieving isn't exactly instinctual for Border Collies.

 

ETA: Gloria, chasing is not herding- but what is the relationship between herding and prey drive? Is there a relationship? Does anyone actually know? Every book I've read on the subject has suggested such. Since all dogs can have impulse control problems, are some dogs more prone to those problems than others? Is impulse control a "personal thing" or a "breed thing"? (Given an owner who will not do a great job teaching impulse control, is a Golden Retriever more likely to have a problem than a Havanese?)

[Root Beer]

Does self control come with age? example - wanting to herd another animal and nip its back legs. Or does self control come from correction of this behavior. If age is part of the element - what age?

 

I wouldn't say, for most dogs, that it comes with age by default. Although there are exceptions to everything!

 

I'd say it comes through learning.

 

Something as simple as "sit and wait" before I put the food bowl down is a self control lesson.

 

Dean had no self control at all when we adopted him. His original owners let him run roughshod with another puppy until he was 8 months old. The only things he knew to do when he wanted something was to go for it, grab it, chase it, tackle it, etc. One of the first things I did with him was take him into a separate room with his food at mealtimes and teach him to do simple behaviors to earn half of the meal one piece at a time. When half was left, he did a sit-stay (once he learned how, of course) and then he was released to the rest of the bowl. I was teaching him behaviors, yes, but his first real lesson was "if you want what you want, you need to pull your brain together and use it to control yourself". He had to learn the very concept of controlling himself.

 

I'm not saying everyone would do it in the same way I would (the difference between my approach and that of others on the board has been discussed in depth in other threads) - it's just an example. Dean had drive and desire, but had no concept that he could keep that in check in any way. I had to teach him. It was a pleasure I'll never forget. He has a great capacity for self control - probably more than any dog I've ever worked with. But I had to help him develop it.

 

One thing that I think does come with age is a greater capacity for self control. I don't think it will develop on it's own without structure and training, but I'd say a six year old is more capable of keeping his drives and desires in check than a six month old. Again, there are exceptions. Some dogs do struggle with this throughout life. Speedy is a very good example of that. Still, even those dogs have the potential to improve more and more as they go through life.

 

And, of course, adolescents are notorious for having issues with self control. Yet, if one is patient and keeps working with the dog through that stage, the results when the dog matures into young adulthood can be lovely.

[Root Beer]

Root Beer, how did you go about teaching your dog self control? I don't think self control is a problem for my dogs once they've learned it, since they have a solid sit/stay at the door (Pilot is occasionally naughty and needs to be told twice, but it's a work in progress).

 

I used a program called "Control Unleashed". There is a book and there are two DVD's out, through which one can learn about it. There are also trainers around who teach the program.

 

It has a reputation for being a "reactive dog program", but that is actually not the case at all. It can be used to help reactive dogs, but it is a program that is designed to help any dog learn self control.

 

Dean learned to ignore cars and other dogs running and other dogs doing Agility, etc. through a combination of the Mat Work and Look at That Game from the program.

 

P.S. Dean is from GHF, too! We adopted him in December 2006.

[Christina]

I used a program called "Control Unleashed". There is a book and there are two DVD's out, through which one can learn about it. There are also trainers around who teach the program.

 

It has a reputation for being a "reactive dog program", but that is actually not the case at all. It can be used to help reactive dogs, but it is a program that is designed to help any dog learn self control.

 

Dean learned to ignore cars and other dogs running and other dogs doing Agility, etc. through a combination of the Mat Work and Look at That Game from the program.

 

P.S. Dean is from GHF, too! We adopted him in December 2006.

 

That isn't the first time I've heard of Control Unleashed being a good program to go by. I think I'll check it out.

 

I'm interested to hear that the "Look At That" game worked for you. And kudos on being a fellow GHF adopter. I would love to have another but have too many issues with mine that need to be handled first.

[Root Beer]

If you get the book and start to train and have any questions, please feel free to PM me. It can be a little confusing until you actually get started with it and start to see it work. Then it's like having a whole new world opened up. After three years, I'm still learning better ways to use CU with my dogs.

 

I don't mean to turn this into a commercial, of course. I get really excited about it because I love both the program and the results.

[Ooky]

Ooky,

Agreed. Are there some dogs who are so driven to work that they would be unsatisfied in a pet home, simply because they obsess rather than work?

 

I don't think "driven to work" is the correct term here (unless I'm misunderstanding your point).

 

I know you keep saying you don't understand why the term herding doesn't apply to dogs/toddlers/cars, but I think this shows you aren't getting a lot of what goes into herding. It involves control of moving entities by the dog, but it also involves taking direction from the handler. Showing self-restraint. Understanding the effects of pressure on the flock and on different entities within the flock. Doing a job in a useful way. Taking time and developing a good pace. I mention this to point out why I don't think breeding for stockwork creates a dog who's likely to have LESS self control or be more likely to obsess, and probably creates a dog more likely on average to be well-balanced enough to easily achieve this kind of control.

 

I DO think there are many dogs with a high enough drive (not herding work-specific) that they aren't happy in your average pet home. By this, I mean a pet home where the dog is expected to just sit around and never gets specialty training to do anything, never has a purpose, an outlet for mental and physical energy. There are dogs with low enough drive that this sort of existiance is fine for them, and many dogs where it is not. This could be due to unmet drives to work, play, think, and/or interact with their human.

 

Any dog with an obsessive tendancy that is allowed to regularly practice that obsession, IMO, is not happy while carrying out that obsession/stereotypy/neurosis. Manic, maybe. But certainly not fulfilled.

[Cody & Duchess]

My BC/aussie mix - 9 months old-dumped dog......is the dog that nips at the hind legs of the another dog. I do not allow this - but really wish that I had a better way to control it. She is learning self control. She must sit any time a car comes during a walk, she has to wait quietly for her dinner and not get up until all are done, and waits for permission to go through door. But since she has this nipping issue I usually do not allow her outside when ball or frisbee is being played which is usually4+ times a day . Today I tried - her in a harness and long lead. Tried to get her interested in the frisbee. All she wanted to do was nip the back legs of Miss Grace ( who is so focused on the frisbee that she does no corrections). I tell her NO - grab her leash not allowing her to continue this behavior. I do not think this is effective. My novice opinion is that she is following her natural inclination to herd by nipping the back legs.

 

She will retrieve and return toys, sticks, balls in the house. Once outside all she wants to do is wrestle and nip. I know this is fixable - any advice would be greatly appreciated. She is well exercised, lots of activities - maybe it is just a matter of time.

[Root Beer]

She will retrieve and return toys, sticks, balls in the house. Once outside all she wants to do is wrestle and nip.

 

What about when she is outside without any other dogs? Will she retrieve and play with you outside when there are no other dogs present?

[Gloria Atwater]

Perfect, modified slightly and quoted for posterity.

 

 

 

Thanks, Rush. Indeed, that applies to many breeds, including hunting dogs who've lost the ability to hunt.

Cheers ~

 

Gloria

[Maralynn]

Maralynn, I agree with the entirety of your first post. Would you mind explaining in detail how you dealt with the corrections for cat chasing? Whether through this thread or PM, I would be very interested in hearing what worked for you.

 

I did watch part of the finals yesterday, so I can see what you mean about the herding drive going completely against prey drive. From what I've heard, the herding drive is a modified prey drive. Is that not correct, or is it so modified that it is unidentifiable as a prey drive?

 

With Kipp I put a prong collar and long line on him on took him near where the cats would hang out (at this time most of the cats were barn cats and and the one house cat had plenty of place to hang out far away from him) When he went to chase after a cat it would be self correcting as soon as he hit the end ( I never let him go more than 6-8 ft so he hurt himself any more than the prong correction) I'd then call him back to me and heavily reward him for coming back. Basically chasing cats was very bad, paying attention to me was very good. This did take a while because the habit was ingrained and he is a tough little dog in many ways.

 

Another issue was the cat obsession. I mean he learned that cat's names in about 2 repeats, then if someone would say the name, he was like "where, where, where" and all he'd do was look for the cat. This was kind of a long tedious matter of focus work. He wasn't *doing* anything wrong so I worked with his mental attitude. I wanted him to want to work with me rather than looking for a cat. This took about 2 years to fully resolve. He still is a dog that is interested in cats, and I'd never trust him loose in the house with one. But he can work through a cat distraction just fine, and knows when he is hanging out with me that you just leave them alone.

 

RE: Prey drive. Prey Drive is a part of herding, a very necessary part, but not all of it. Most working breeds have prey drive of some sort or another, but it is balanced with other drives that are necessary to perform the job the dog is bred for. Labs need hunt drive along with their prey drive, police dogs need fight drive along with their prey drive. Guardian dogs need pack drive along with prey drive. I hope this makes sense.

[Gloria Atwater]

Does self control come with age? example - wanting to herd another animal and nip its back legs. Or does self control come from correction of this behavior. If age is part of the element - what age?

 

 

IMHO, self control comes first with training and secondly with age. We have to create the environment in which self control is necessary, and to introduce the concept. Then as time goes on and the pup's mind matures, they are better able to grasp their lessons and understand the need for restraint.

 

For example, at 12 weeks, our Aussie pup began to see that she had to wait her turn for her cookie, but she didn't like it. She lacked patience. At 4 months, she now eagerly anticipates a cookie reward for showing restraint. She's put together the ideas that self control=reward, and if she forgets and grabs for something, she responds to only a mild correction, a verbal, "AH!"

 

At what age a dog learns self control, though, depends entirely on the dog. My Nick came out of the box an old soul. His sister, Gael, is a year and a half and still sometimes forgets to focus. Each dog must be approached as an individual, and their progress continually evaluated along the way.

Cheers ~

 

Gloria

[Maralynn]

My BC/aussie mix - 9 months old-dumped dog......is the dog that nips at the hind legs of the another dog. I do not allow this - but really wish that I had a better way to control it. She is learning self control. She must sit any time a car comes during a walk, she has to wait quietly for her dinner and not get up until all are done, and waits for permission to go through door. But since she has this nipping issue I usually do not allow her outside when ball or frisbee is being played which is usually4+ times a day . Today I tried - her in a harness and long lead. Tried to get her interested in the frisbee. All she wanted to do was nip the back legs of Miss Grace ( who is so focused on the frisbee that she does no corrections). I tell her NO - grab her leash not allowing her to continue this behavior. I do not think this is effective. My novice opinion is that she is following her natural inclination to herd by nipping the back legs.

 

She will retrieve and return toys, sticks, balls in the house. Once outside all she wants to do is wrestle and nip. I know this is fixable - any advice would be greatly appreciated. She is well exercised, lots of activities - maybe it is just a matter of time.

 

I think the first step is teaching your dog what you expect. When she goes outside with 3 other dogs who are running and playing, she goes over threshold and takes out her excitement by nipping the other dogs. She doesn't yet know how to play by your rules. I'd exercise her separately outside for a month, work on teaching her how to play and work on self control exercises. Teach her an appropriate outlet for her energy and drive at the end of 4 to 6 weeks, start playing with her with one other dog and see how she does. If it works fine, then gradually add in your other dogs to her play time.

[ejano]

I've been working with my gang on several different things...I've mentioned before that at least once a day, that since we brought the pups home, I line the three up and put them through their paces so they know they each have to wait their turn and that I get to decide whose turn it is... (Ladybug is almost ten years old and knew this game as I'd played it with our previous dog). Brodie has kind of a hard time with waiting for some things, like his turn to catch the BALL... I've been using my new camera's video capability to capture some of our little training exercises so I've been able to see just how difficult a struggle it is for him to overcome his instinct to go for the ball, depending on the angle at which it goes by him....if it cuts past his nose at right angles, it's almost impossible for him to keep still, but he's finally managing it. And with repetition and reward, he'll get better at it.

 

 

I can learn a great deal by "going to the video tape" to watch both the dog -- and me -- and what else is going on in the situation that might have been a distraction that I didn't know was there at the time. I've been able to see what I've been doing right and also been able to see just how far I have to go.

 

Brodie has also been the more dedicated cat chaser...and it's not to say that this entirely his fault...Tiger Lily is a teaser but Robin learned to ignore her first so she redoubled her efforts on Brodie. It's only been in the past few weeks that he has finally learned that if he doesn't give chase, she won't torment him and she has learned that if she doesn't torment, he won't give chase. This lesson has stuck both inside, and more importantly outside in which the two regularly engaged in what I call the "make it to the fence" mad dash the moment my back was turned. This is a huge step for Brodie. He and Robin just turned 18 months last week.

 

Liz

 

 

IMHO, self control comes first with training and secondly with age. We have to create the environment in which self control is necessary, and to introduce the concept. Then as time goes on and the pup's mind matures, they are better able to grasp their lessons and understand the need for restraint.

 

For example, at 12 weeks, our Aussie pup began to see that she had to wait her turn for her cookie, but she didn't like it. She lacked patience. At 4 months, she now eagerly anticipates a cookie reward for showing restraint. She's put together the ideas that self control=reward, and if she forgets and grabs for something, she responds to only a mild correction, a verbal, "AH!"

 

At what age a dog learns self control, though, depends entirely on the dog. My Nick came out of the box an old soul. His sister, Gael, is a year and a half and still sometimes forgets to focus. Each dog must be approached as an individual, and their progress continually evaluated along the way.

Cheers ~

 

Gloria

[HoosierMike]

Both of my dogs were horrible car chasers when we adopted each of them. Some of that

behavior, I'm sure, is because of the herding instinct, somewhere way down deep, but I

believe that most of it came about because the foster homes were fenced on busy

streets and they weren't properly supervised. It was very difficult to break Maggie and

it took probably a year before I felt confident that she wouldn't feel the urge any longer.

During our walks, she was, and still is, made to sit-stay if a car, bike, motorcycle or even

another dog walks past in any direction. Sit... eye contact... treat...move when I move, not

before. When we got Dave, he was probably worse, but I think he learned the routine from

Maggie, and it just became automatic for him. He caught on to the system within 4 months

and now he sees or hears a car coming and automatically steers us (me and Maggie) to

the side of the road and sit-stays before I tell him to. He's a pretty bright little guy.

 

As far as the leg nipping goes, Maggie just turned four, we train everyday, we walk everyday,

all and all she is a well behaved dog.... Except for the leg nipping, I've tried just about

everything I can think of to break her of it, she just can't seem to control it. Maybe it's the

Heeler blood in her, I don't know. When she does it, play time is over. She seems to know

it's something I don't want her to do, at the time, but next time it's the same thing all over again.

I'll be watching this thread closely for any ideas and help.

Mike