Herding? Looks more like chasing...?

[tessa_s212]

If you don't already know, I belong to many forums including this one. One of them is a Labrador forum, and this is how I know of this guy. His name is Jef and he is very active in agility. From the first time I read one of his posts I knew he was one of "those". He's one of those ridiculous agility people that will risk their dog's safety for a pretty blue ribbon.

 

I found his website through his public profile. I found that he owns a "Hob Nob" dog...and then I found a video of this dog herding...

 

http://www.jef-b.com/Dogs/

 

Look under Videos, and Herding. "Voucher" is the Hob Nob dog.

 

Is that what herding is supposed to look like? Looks more like chasing to me..???

[mjk05]

I'll preface this by saying I haven't seen the clips yet (on dial-up, still downloading)- and I don't know anything about this guy or any of his dogs- but the clip titles do say "First time on sheep". In my limited experience, a lot of dogs start out their first time on sheep with "chasing" behaviour- or poo-eating/sniffing, or barking. Generally they get it sorted quickly, but if the sheep are a bit quick or bolshy, or the dog's too young/slow to get where it needs to be, or the handler is completely clueless, things can get very messy.

 

I try not to make real judgements about any dog based on the first time its on sheep- a couple of our pups have been totally natural, controlled and stylish on their first experience on sheep, and compared to the footage of Glyn Jones' pup on his "Come Bye and Away!" tape, you'd think our dogs were miles better- but I suspect they're not

 

Anyway, waiting for the clips to download, so I should reserve any opinion until then I guess

[kelpiegirl]

I clicked on the video icons and nothing happened. WHat do you mean about hurting the dogs to win a blue ribbon?

[tessa_s212]

Originally posted by kelpiegirl:

WHat do you mean about hurting the dogs to win a blue ribbon?

If you are not yet aware, AKC agility courses have gotten very dangerous. The turns and sharp angles could easily hurt a dog. AKC also isn't as concerned about the dog's saftey as they should be. This is very concerned with speed, so he does not train his dogs to wait on the teeter contact. I've went through most of his videos, and there were over six times that I counted that he should've been called for a faulty teeter contact(and flyoffs), but of course it was AKC and they really don't care for a dog's safety.

 

While he was on the other forum, he replied to a thread about agility. The person was discussing how to train the dog to wait at the bottom of the teeter. The person asking this question also said he wanted to slow him down a bit so that he wouldn't get hurt. This man, Jef, replied that he would never slow down any of his dogs. Agility is a speed game and the fastest time wins. His other replies also showed his true self. He wants to win. Nothing else. These type of people scare me... because they do not care for their own dog's safety.

[Firchow]

Originally posted by kelpiegirl:

I clicked on the video icons and nothing happened.

You're probably using Firefox (or maybe Opera) and he doesn't have his site configured correctly to work with the better browsers.

 

Switch to IE and they will likely download for you.

[KathyF]

Tessa_s212-

 

Do you know where this Jef guy is from??

 

The herding videos on his site, just like someone stated, look pretty common for a dog's first time on sheep.

[Smokjbc]

Hi,

 

I watched the video, and for a first time dog on sheep, he's not bad. He's not chasing- he does look sometimes like this is a new "game" but I would expect that from many dogs that do agility or other game like activities. The dog was bunching sheep- and only split them up a few times (again, to be expected). We shouldn't pass judgement anyways- but I'd like to see this dog after his 10th time on sheep or so to get a true idea what his ability was.

 

Also, it seemed like the handler was not very experienced but was taking direction and working with his dog well. I don't usually let my new people work their dogs the first time- more to protect my sheep from true "chasing" than anything else.

 

I have had many Border Collies come out and work my sheep, and being that I live in a mostly pet (i.e non-farming) area- I have very few that look that good when they first come out. If I was choosing a personal dog, there are some minor things that I wouldn't like about that dog (which could easily change over his next few times working sheep), but for a student to have a dog with that kind of interest that is controllable and workable is a good thing.

[kelpiegirl]

Well, since I don't do akc, I guess I can't comment. AKC courses are all about call offs and removing fun for the dog/handler. Sometimes dogs miss contacts, because even if they have been trained, they forget

The speed thing is very important, but you can get contacts and be very speedy.

[tessa_s212]

Originally posted by KathyF:

Do you know where this Jef guy is from??

 

On his profile from the other forum it says he lives in Auburn, WA.

 

You've got me curious! Why is it that you ask?

[tessa_s212]

Originally posted by kelpiegirl:

Well, since I don't do akc, I guess I can't comment.

For the reasons I have already stated, I actually refuse to compete in any kind of AKC agility trial. I prefer NADAC, CPE and (for my slower dogs) UKC. All three focus on safety, but you still need that speed in NADAC and CPE. How perfect is that!? Speed and safety!

 

--well, there I am getting off topic again...

[Eileen Stein]

Tessa: Assuming it's the dog Voucher that we're talking about, I agree with you that what we're seeing is not herding and is much more like chasing (note the tail), but I agree with everyone else that it's well within the normal range for a dog's first exposure to sheep. You really can't tell much of anything from a dog's first session with sheep. In general, the best you can do is note what might be causes for future concern or what might be causes for optimism, but that could all change in the next session, and is really no indication of how the dog will (or will not) train out. He will probably get over that aimless excitement as he goes along, but he might not. He resists going between the sheep and the fence, but that could be fear (temporary or permanent), or it could be lack of a feel for balance (temporary or permanent), or it could be just that his excitement is masking his instincts, or it could be just that his handler is too unsure to give him much help. Time will tell. There's nothing on the clip that would make me conclude that this dog is unpromising.

 

Almost never can you draw any useful conclusions about a dog's merit from its first training session. You may have noticed that many of us get impatient with claims that someone's dog is awesome based on one or two exposures to sheep. That's why. And the opposite is true as well.

 

Glenn: Unbelievable as it must seem, some of us just can't bring ourselves to give up on Netscape. [hangs head in shame]

[tessa_s212]

Ok, I understand. It is kind of like agility,..sometimes a dog's first trial will be awesome! But then, that dog's next trials turn out horribly. And it is the same vise-versa(sp?)

 

Was the dog only supposed to keep the sheep in one spot? Or were the sheep supposed to be moved in some kind of direction?

[Eileen Stein]

Normally, my aim in the first session is to get the dog moving around the sheep freely in both directions, keeping the sheep to me. By shifting your own position, you can cause the dog to change direction in reaction to you and the sheep. You're bringing out the dog's instinct to control the movement of sheep, showing him that you are the focal point (bringing and keeping the sheep to you should be or become the dog's default mode), and in doing so letting the dog get a feel for the sheep and how they react to him. Depending on how things go, you can sometimes in the first session get the dog to recognize and stop on balance (the point that keeps the sheep contained between you and him), and even to walk them up to you as you move backward.

 

But things do not always (or even often) go according to plan. In the clip, the handler was never able to get the dog behind the sheep to get the sheep off the fence. He needed to get them off the fence (ideally, by his dog going around them), and as that happened he needed to back up toward the middle of the enclosure so the sheep could move toward him and the dog could move freely around them to keep the sheep to/with him. That never happened (probably due largely to handler inexperience), so the session never progressed to the point where you could see how the dog flanked and balanced. It isn't uncommon at all for the dog to start out wanting to hold the sheep to the fence (that's a kind of control too, after all), but you can't accomplish anything until you can get them off the fence, and get the dog on the far side of them.

 

Note: I think what I'm saying here is pretty standard, but other trainers may use different approaches, and if so I hope they'll post their thoughts.

[Shetlander]

Originally posted by kelpiegirl:

Well, since I don't do akc, I guess I can't comment. AKC courses are all about call offs and removing fun for the dog/handler.

I do some AKC (also CPE and UKC), so I'll comment. Actually, the courses are not all about call offs and removing fun. If you're calling off your dog, then you've either miscalculated and sent your dog in the wrong direction (handling error) or you haven't fully prepared your dog for the ring (training issue). There are lots of traps in AKC, I grant you, but the ultimate challenge is how to handle so the dog never notices the trap. As far as removing fun, it depends on how you train and compete.

 

Liz

[KathyF]

Originally posted by tessa_s212:

quote:

---

Originally posted by KathyF:

 

Do you know where this Jef guy is from??

 

On his profile from the other forum it says he lives in Auburn, WA.

 

You've got me curious! Why is it that you ask?

I was just trying to figure out who the instructor might have been. Her voice sounded familiar. I was also trying to figure out why she didn't go in to help the guy and his dog.

 

Kathy

[Dana Nichols]

I actually met this guy when he ran one of his labs in agility at the Lab National last fall in Colorado. He was very nice & is a GREAT handler. I met one of his border collies & saw one of his labs run. I think you may have gotten the wrong impression of him from the other forum. He was also here for the USDAA Nationals. There is a picture on his web page with one of his BCs winning the 20 inch class. That's pretty impressive.

 

Dana

[border_collie_crazy]

what he should have done was moved the sheep away from the edge, his dog may have had a better chance at you know moving the sheep if he had.

[kelpiegirl]

I compete in USDAA trials with two dogs who are always in front of me. We have done very well, without fancy handling maneuvers/crosses/v-sets etc. I am of the belief that handling a dog in agility should be all about not being seen. If you are good (that day/that class). You can handle, but no one notices this/that, because the dog is handled on the fly. I have yet to see an excellent course where there weren't sudden stops/change of direction, where time is wasted because it is like someone put a rope in front of you. It is all null for me though, I will never compete in AKC, so them's THEIR brakes, not mine

Julie

[mjk05]

So I finally got to see the videos, and they weren't that bad- in fact, pretty standard "first time" stuff for many dogs. The Gael dog was actually better than most adult "first timers" with obedience/agility backgrounds I've seen. Yes, Voucher was chasing for most of his clip, looked like part of him was just being a hooligan and having fun (tail waving, dashing and darting) and part of him was confused and lacking confidence.

 

Their handler didn't help much- he was obviously also a beginner, and made all the usual beginner mistakes, like trying to point the dog in a direction with his stick, in fact blocking it from going that way, and not being able to predict where dog/sheep would move, so he was always 3 seconds behind where he should have been. A clueless handler also tends to make dogs "feral", because they can see that their handler has no idea, and feel less confident. Its so much easier to see this stuff from the outside of the fence

 

If they were my dogs, I would probably take Voucher out of the paddock and into a smaller round pen, where I'd have more control, and the sheep couldn't stick in the corners. Once he'd settled and gained confidence, and was balancing, going both ways, going between sheep and fence and taking a few basic commands, I could go back out in the paddock again. I'm another uncoordinated and clueless handler, and its just easier to keep everything controlled in a round pen.

 

There's every chance Voucher will turn out much better than what you can see at his first time- there's a chance he won't, but you can't tell.

 

Ok, I understand. It is kind of like agility,..sometimes a dog's first trial will be awesome! But then, that dog's next trials turn out horribly. And it is the same vise-versa

I don't think its quite the same. A better analogy would be: look at a class of beginner agility dogs on their very first lesson- can you accurately assess which ones will be great, and which will be just average? Some will be freaked out by the environment and unable to concentrate, others will start off uninterested, but develop enthusiasm later, others will be high-energy twits from the start, and will either develop control or remain high-energy twits.

 

It is still not quite the same- for one thing, stockwork is so dependent on instinct, which isn't training or temperament, but something separate. The first time on sheep young dogs are just figuring out what sheep are, that they can move them, and then hopefully that some behaviours feel good and natural, like holding sheep of fetching them to the handler. A good handler can start to show the new dog these "correct" behaviours, and let them see how good and "right" it feels, and might be able to get the dog doing all the right things. They might even be able to make some early assessment of the dog. But I don't think we could make much of an assessment of a dog like Voucher based on that clip.

 

Samantha

[Shetlander]

Originally posted by kelpiegirl:

I compete in USDAA trials with two dogs who are always in front of me. We have done very well, without fancy handling maneuvers/crosses/v-sets etc. I am of the belief that handling a dog in agility should be all about not being seen. If you are good (that day/that class). You can handle, but no one notices this/that, because the dog is handled on the fly.

That's one of the many things I find fun in agility, that there are so many ways to play and so many different goals to set for yourself. I'm not sure who is supposed to not be seeing the handler -- the dog or the spectators?

[Pipedream Farm]

Originally posted by tessa_s212:

I found his website through his public profile. I found that he owns a "Hob Nob" dog...and then I found a video of this dog herding...

 

http://www.jef-b.com/Dogs/

 

Look under Videos, and Herding. "Voucher" is the Hob Nob dog.

 

Is that what herding is supposed to look like? Looks more like chasing to me..???

I can remember when I first started herding; it took me quite a while to figure out where I needed to be to help my dog. My dog had already been worked by my trainer to the point where he was balancing nicely.

 

This video appears to be a very novice handler and a dog on sheep for the first time, so it's not surprising to see what was happening. You can hear the instructor's frustration in not being able to get the session to go as she would like. Usually the instructor starts a novice dog for a novice handler; however, there may have been reasons why this was not the case here (i.e. dog would not work for anyone else, instructor was hurt, etc).

 

I saw a dog interested in the sheep (and not diving in gripping) and if the handler could have been in the right place at the right time I think the dog would have settled into balancing.

 

Is that what herding is supposed to look like?

No, but the first time on sheep rarely does.

 

Looks more like chasing to me..???

It could have been a LOT worse in terms of chasing.

 

Mark

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

>

 

I agree with Mark on both counts, but I would still say that IF the dog had dived in gripping and IF the dog had been a lot worse in terms of chasing, that would not make it any more likely or less likely that it would turn out to be a good working dog in the end.

[kelpiegirl]

Regarding the handling- what I mean, is it isn't about appearances so much as it is, the dog doing the course with direction from the handler, but not the handler DIRECTING the dog through the course. The course should be run smoothly, and without dramatic handling moves.

Julie

[Pipedream Farm]

Originally posted by Eileen Stein:

I would still say that IF the dog had dived in gripping and IF the dog had been a lot worse in terms of chasing, that would not make it any more likely or less likely that it would turn out to be a good working dog in the end.

Eileen, thanks for stating this and I agree with it.

 

Mark

[CindyH]

I am fortunate to live in an area where many of the top handlers/trainers in agility live and compete. There is a trend now to teach run-through contacts rather than 2on-2off, especially in NADAC where speed and distance are exemplified. To shave hundredths of a second off handlers are becoming better at analyzing the dog's and handler paths, agility is becoming very technical (and I thought I'd never need geometery in high school). Competitions at a National level may be lost or won by a hundredth of a second. Run-through contacts, trained properly, will bring the dog's head down and create a safer flow than even the stopping action of 2on-2off, in fact stopping on contacts can be detrimental to certain body structures, ie, short legged, long backed dogs. That said, I've never seen a dog previously trained to stop on contacts be consistant with retraining for run-throughs. Although I don't personally know Jef, he's well known to many people that I train and compete with and I have enjoyed watching him run his Lab, Milo, several times. Milo is the Border Collie of the Retriever world and a kick to watch, never seen such enthusiasum from that breed before!! Gael is a rescue that Jef won NADAC Nationals with a couple of years ago. I haven't witnessed or heard anything about him that would make me think he doesn't love or care about his dogs.