Flyball and Our Excitable Breed?

[Camden's Mom]

Disclaimer: I do NOT mean for this to come across as a judgment or criticism of Flyball. However, I am genuinely interested in how mentally compatible the sport is with such an excitable, and sometimes high-strung, breed as the border collie.

 

I’d watched some Flyball videos online and it looked like FUN!!!! A really awesome BC owner I met at our agility class invited me to come and watch one of her teams practice sessions. She suggested that I bring my dog and that he’d have a blast watching the runs.

 

Good lord… my dog was over threshold the instant the Flyball dogs started. We tried moving away, but there wasn’t a distance we could go (without leaving) that he could handle. The Flyball dogs in line seemed SUPER intense as well, (almost manic) but were fast and focused down the run. It was fun for me to watch (they had an amazing team) but my dog lost all control of himself as a spectator.

 

Knowing BCs can be high-strung, I’ve worked a lot with my dog to instill calm, confidence and self-control. Yes, he plays, has fun, gets excited, but I like for him to remain relatively self-aware. The idea of trying to teach him anything (or have any control over him at all) in that environment seemed impossible. How does Flyball fit into the world of such a tightly wound breed as BCs?

 

Again, I really am not trying to criticize the sport; just curious as to how allowing the dogs to go into such a frenzied state of mind before the runs is healthy? Is it risky for them to be so "over-the-top" excited or is it a great outlet to burn off tons of extra energy? Is it a good “job” for them? Obviously it’s great for their bodies, but I’m interested in how it effects their minds.

 

It’s still a sport I’m considering having him participate in, just need to know I’m not frying his little brain if I do. Oh, also, we do some herding (he’s not great, I'm terrible, but we both have fun) and I want to be sure if we start Flyball he won’t think the sheep are all holding tennis balls and should be charged at and launched off of. I’m kidding about that last part (well mostly).

 

Thanks flyballers (and others) in advance!

[Oko]

I'd say flyball actually does teach them to focus. Yes, people hype up their dogs, but they have to be able to be surrounded by a frenzy of (usually) barking dogs blazing past them in the lanes over, and focus on the job at hand. I know people with dogs that participate in flyball, and they're not crazed away from it. When they're there, they are definitely there to get hyped up and do their thing, but as I said, under control.

 

I wouldn't do it for a couple reasons. For one, I'd rather do something that requires more teamwork with the dog. I've heard the repetitive box slamming can do some pretty tough wear on their bodies since it's so specific unlike, for example, different agility obstacles (no idea if it's true), and barking (even if your dog doesn't-you'll hear barking) drives me mad, but flyball is a quite popular BC sport.

[alligande]

Camden's Mom I have had most of the same thoughts among the people I know through agility there are many who would never do flyball for all the reasons you have mentioned. But there are many that do both.

Personally I have worked hard to have a focused and calm dog at agility and I would be terrified to give him a reason to get that hyped, he can get there without any help from me. I am the one waiting my turn at agility trials trying hard to keep my dog calm, while others around are tugging fouls.. Does not affect our speed in anyway.

Like Oko I have never had any interest in doing it, I like having a team sport where we are working together, and the barking would drive be bonkers. I have heard that minimizing the potential damage from the turn is all in the early training.

[Sekah]

Judging by the proliferation of BCs in flyball, I imagine the breed does quite well.

 

It can be tough on their bodies, but a properly taught box turn should minimize stress on their body. Most of the dogs who run are higher than a kite. There's something about the speed, the repetitive nature and the simplicity of the sport that really seems to gel with the animals. They truly love it. With that said, the body reacts to eustress the same way it reacts to stress. Chemically, the sport is quite hard on the dogs' bodies too.

 

I promised that any dog with whom I opt to do flyball I will also opt to do high level competitive obedience. I've seen too many flyball dogs who know little more than how to run down the lane and back, and I've seen some a number of dogs bred because of their success in the sport when their temperaments left much to be desired. The sport dogs should be pets first and competitors second, and this is not always the case.

 

It can be tough to deal with the breed's movement fixation in the sport, but as they learn the ropes and gain confidence in the sport they'll understand the environment and their role within it. It's just about tiptoeing around your dog's current skill set and expanding it gradually. It's a really fun sport if you can find a team who you really get along with, and your dog will likely adore it.

[Camden's Mom]

Personally I have worked hard to have a focused and calm dog at agility and I would be terrified to give him a reason to get that hyped, he can get there without any help from me.

 

Yes... that!!! Maybe I'm the problem, not my dog. I like to see him calm, cool and collected and it doesn't take much to throw him out of that and straight into psycho puppy mode.

 

Also, I didn't mention it in my original post because I didn't want to come across as too negative, but I met a BC owner at the practice session who could not put one of her dogs back on sheep after they started Flyball. He just went into that manic state of mind and had zero control around the sheep. Wasn't a huge deal for them, as Flyball was their primary sport, but I much prefer herding (I like the teamwork) so this made me wary.

 

Thanks for the feedback about possible damage to their bodies through repetitive, high impact motion. I wasn't aware of that. If we do try it I'll be sure to wait until he's a bit older and his bones are finished growing.

[SoFreshSoClean]

I think like all sports there is such a wide variety of training and what people expect from their dogs that it can be difficult and even unfair to say that something is Always or Never.

 

Because I also hear from people that those agility BCs "just spin and bark and spin and bark" when in reality it could be the dog, the training and/or the handler. Flyball is like that too. There's such a wide range of training, team dynamics, and dogs that it can be hard to narrow it down. I think everyone who works hard at their chosen sport or sports cringes inside a little when they see a video of someone out there who is doing a poor job of it.

 

We have some dogs on our team that do other sports and some that just do flyball. Our team's lab has amazing obedience (even in the lanes) and you can put her in a down to re-tie your shoe. My 7yo mix has been allowed to get higher than a kite and well, I think his brain disengages immediately at this point. My wife's Malinois is getting darn good at seperating all of his different sports and what is required for each.

 

My first concern as a team owner was that a new dog was out and was allowed to get super spun from the noise (and yes, we let our dogs bark). Typically, new dogs are rested between their sessions. We'll have one older dog out so that the new dog can do recalls side-by-side and learn to work around other dogs. My 7yo almost never trains with new dogs because he loves getting high and tugging and barking like a freak.

 

and for my crazy 7yo - I think it's an outlet for him. We live a pretty quiet life outside of flyball. He reminds me of my cousins when we were young. We'd go camping regularly and they were allowed to be dirty and loud and spit watermelon seeds at each other and bathe in a river, etc, etc. My dog gets to our practice space and sees his special tug come out and he's allowed and even encouraged to let it all out.

[Root Beer]

I have elected not to explore flyball for two reasons.

 

First, I want my dogs settled in a competition setting - any competition setting. Yes, there is a place for play and kicking the drive into gear, but for the most part when we are in a competition venue, I want to my dogs to "see crate - settle" when we are not actually in the ring or the warm up area. They are welcome to people-watch or even watch the team in the ring if we are sitting close enough for them to do so, but I want to see calm and relaxed expressions.

 

I am sure that many dogs could be taught to toggle between the hyped up flyball atmosphere and the quieter atmosphere of other sport venues, but I have concluded that I don't want my dogs practicing what I personally consider to be bad competition habits (for my dogs and my purposes - if flyball is your thing, that's different) in the venues that I consider to be my "primary" sport venues.

 

Second, I do have concerns about the repetitive motion high impact motion.

 

And I don't mean this as judgment or criticism of flyball, either. Those are merely the reasons that have influenced my own decision not to get into flyball.

 

I was actually just talking to someone about flyball this past weekend and we were both saying that we don't hear very much about it anymore. I'm wondering if its popularity may have peaked? Or maybe I'm just not coming across the flyball folks much.

[mum24dog]

I was actually just talking to someone about flyball this past weekend and we were both saying that we don't hear very much about it anymore. I'm wondering if its popularity may have peaked? Or maybe I'm just not coming across the flyball folks much.

 

Maybe the flyball folks are saying the same about agility / obedience / HTM etc.

 

Most dog activities take place out of the public gaze and if you aren't participating you'd never know it was happening.

[Jumpin Boots]

I was actually just talking to someone about flyball this past weekend and we were both saying that we don't hear very much about it anymore. I'm wondering if its popularity may have peaked? Or maybe I'm just not coming across the flyball folks much.

I have noticed in our area that there tends to be less cross over training with the two sports then there was when flyball first became popular.

 

I work with someone who started doing agility, did both sports for a while and now only does flyball, she said the two became too time consuming and expensive, she picked the sport her dog tended to enjoy more.

 

I wonder how much the economy has effected people crossing over? Or if people have realized the dogs don't transition well between the two sports? Or if the people don't transition well between the two sports?

[dogrsqr]

Could be that this persons's dog was out of control on stock even before it saw flyball.

 

Abbey and I participate in all 3 activities, flyball, agility and herding.

 

Yes, she's crazy as a loon at flyball. She screams at the top of her lungs, pulls like crazy, but absolutely knows her job. She really isn't fond of most of her black lab type team mates either, but as long as they're focused on doing their job she's fine with them. She is absolutely thinking when she runs flyball. At the last tournament she bobbled the ball at the box; caught it about 5' to the left of the box and headed directly to the first jump off the box. It would have been far easier to just bypass all the jumps, but she knows what her job is.

 

That said Abbey is a very controlled dog at herding. I think I can probably count on one hand the number of times shes dove into her sheep in a 3 year period.

 

She is noisy in her crate at agility trials, but then she's always been that way. She is probably the most vocal dog I've ever owned. I surely can't blame it on flyball since she was competing at agility long before we even started training flyball. I'm not sure if the order of learning can make some difference, but we've had several dogs that have competed at both agility and flyball and they have all learned agility first.

 

I do think that mental stability plays a part in what activities you do with any dog. If your dog is totally out of control on sheep and herding is what you want to do I guess I wouldn't look at flyball.

 

As far as training them to know their job .... you don't start out trying to teach them flyball with a whole lot of chaos going on. They need to learn all aspects of the job and then you start adding distractions, just like any other activity you train for.

 

Gina and Abbey

 

 

 

 

Yes... that!!! Maybe I'm the problem, not my dog. I like to see him calm, cool and collected and it doesn't take much to throw him out of that and straight into psycho puppy mode.

 

Also, I didn't mention it in my original post because I didn't want to come across as too negative, but I met a BC owner at the practice session who could not put one of her dogs back on sheep after they started Flyball. He just went into that manic state of mind and had zero control around the sheep. Wasn't a huge deal for them, as Flyball was their primary sport, but I much prefer herding (I like the teamwork) so this made me wary.

 

Thanks for the feedback about possible damage to their bodies through repetitive, high impact motion. I wasn't aware of that. If we do try it I'll be sure to wait until he's a bit older and his bones are finished growing.

[mum24dog]

 

I wonder how much the economy has effected people crossing over? Or if people have realized the dogs don't transition well between the two sports? Or if the people don't transition well between the two sports?

 

Or is it that competitions clash and they have to make a choice?

 

I do know a very small number who do both quite seriously though and more who do a bit of flyball as a sideline for a change. It doesn't seem adversely to affect their dogs' agility performance..

[dogrsqr]

I forgot to mention that we now know how to teach a swimmers turn so no dog should be slamming into the box. The jumping is no worse than a lot of what I see in agility and the heights are generally much lower unless you're the height dog.

 

We see a chiro/sports medicine veterinarian on a regular basis. If she sees anything that looks like a problem caused by flyball I would quit immediately. I'd do the same if was related to agility or herding. We initially went to this vet to set up a work plan and to find out if there were any problem areas. At our first appointment she had concerns about Abbey's wrists (this was prior to flyball) and gave us exercises for her to do. Since then we've gotten the thumbs up at every appointment.

 

Gina and Abbey

[Root Beer]

Maybe the flyball folks are saying the same about agility / obedience / HTM etc.

 

Most dog activities take place out of the public gaze and if you aren't participating you'd never know it was happening.

 

Sure, that's possible. But I can say that I am hearing about Obedience even though it is not a sport that I take part in. I am hearing a lot about barn hunt and lure coursing, even dock diving, and I don't do any of those things. And nosework, nosework, nosework - seems to be taking everyone by storm in my area!

 

I am talking about what I am hearing among dog sport folks, not the general public at large.

[Root Beer]

 

I work with someone who started doing agility, did both sports for a while and now only does flyball, she said the two became too time consuming and expensive, she picked the sport her dog tended to enjoy more.

 

I wonder how much the economy has effected people crossing over?

 

That's a good point. I have cut way back on Rally participation for that reason.

 

That makes a lot of sense, actually.

[Sekah]

Or is it that competitions clash and they have to make a choice?

 

I do know a very small number who do both quite seriously though and more who do a bit of flyball as a sideline for a change. It doesn't seem adversely to affect their dogs' agility performance..

Hah. Flyball definitely affected my dog's agility performance. She's an Aussie, and a very rough 'n tumble one at that, so she has had a hard time understanding that we don't jump 22" agility jumps the same way we jump 7" flyball jumps. There is a conflict between driving forward w/o handler feedback (fun!) vs. turning tightly around a jump upright (tedious!). Bar knocking is a serious problem for us. I've personally opted to focus more on agility since it gels better with my schedule, but will continue to pursue multiple sports with my dog because we both enjoy it so thoroughly.

The general consensus seems to be that if you want to pursue both sports, start in agility first.

 

I have elected not to explore flyball for two reasons.

 

First, I want my dogs settled in a competition setting - any competition setting. Yes, there is a place for play and kicking the drive into gear, but for the most part when we are in a competition venue, I want to my dogs to "see crate - settle" when we are not actually in the ring or the warm up area. They are welcome to people-watch or even watch the team in the ring if we are sitting close enough for them to do so, but I want to see calm and relaxed expressions.

 

I am sure that many dogs could be taught to toggle between the hyped up flyball atmosphere and the quieter atmosphere of other sport venues, but I have concluded that I don't want my dogs practicing what I personally consider to be bad competition habits (for my dogs and my purposes - if flyball is your thing, that's different) in the venues that I consider to be my "primary" sport venues.

 

This is anecdotal, but the dogs I know who settle best in their crates are all sports bred flyball dogs.

[cwb3]

One of the things our flyball team insists upon is that the dogs (and handlers) are quiet and settled in our little crating area. The noise at a flyball tournament can get quite excessive. (I was at the CanAm two weeks ago, imagine about 600 dogs and 7 racing rings, the beginning of each day was loud and intense even for the veteran dogs.) But all our dogs can settle nicely between races, rest in their crates, take leasurely walks outside of the racing building. The mostly only get spun up once they are outside the racing lanes, on deck for the next race. Some of our dogs only bark when on deck, then quiet down once we are lined up to race. (Not my border collie or the other border collie I also run.)

 

The dogs just LOVE the sport. Most of the dogs on our team and on other teams that I know of, also do obedience and agility. There may only be a relative handful of working border collies, and open trialing dogs, running flyball as well. A few of us, myself included, are finding our way to sheepdog training coming from other sports. My Cowboy, while he is just starting out, is frankly more calm and composed in a pen with sheep than he is around agility equipment!

[cwb3]

I was definately advised the same thing, that training for both could create challanges for agility jumps, or make for a less efficienct flyball hurdle. The advice was the same, start with agility, do flyball later. Naturally I ignored the advice, as Cowboy so much loves flyball and is typically ball crazy. His speed and drive, and me as a novice handler, has made agility sequencing a bit of challange. That said I have not found many issues with him knocking bars down in agility. One thing that has worked for me while training him in both simultaniously is when working agility jumping, focus on pinwheels and serpentines, jumps that require turning and twisting and direction changes. Leave the straight shot jumping to flyball. Doing that has made him think of each as a distinct, different task.

 

Hah. Flyball definitely affected my dog's agility performance. She's an Aussie, and a very rough 'n tumble one at that, so she has had a hard time understanding that we don't jump 22" agility jumps the same way we jump 7" flyball jumps. There is a conflict between driving forward w/o handler feedback (fun!) vs. turning tightly around a jump upright (tedious!). Bar knocking is a serious problem for us. I've personally opted to focus more on agility since it gels better with my schedule, but will continue to pursue multiple sports with my dog because we both enjoy it so thoroughly.

The general consensus seems to be that if you want to pursue both sports, start in agility first.

 

 

This is anecdotal, but the dogs I know who settle best in their crates are all sports bred flyball dogs.

[Dana Nichols]

I think that's the beauty of having so many different activities we can do with our dogs - there will be something that will be the right fit for you & your dog(s). It sounds like flyball might not be a good fit for you or for some of the other posters.

 

You did have a couple of specific questions about flyball that I wanted to answer. Yes, border collies do well in flyball. As do many breeds. Most of us train from the very beginning teaching a dog to run back to the handler for a reward - tug, etc. Then we add in one dog in other side doing recalls next to the dog - first with the other dog behind, then easing them closer. It's a gradual training process - like any other activity. What you are seeing with finished dogs actually racing is not how you start a new beginner dog or a puppy.

 

Most competing flyball dogs do relax in their crates. If they don't relax, they aren't going to have the energy to go out and race for the 5-8 races (up to 35 heats per day) they'll have that day. Like cwb3 said above, most of our dogs only bark while racing & some of our dogs don't bark at all. And even then, it's because they are excited. But, like I said, this sport isn't for every person and it isn't for every dog.

 

I have done quite a few other sports with my dogs. I started with labs and did obedience, hunt tests, agility, trained a little in tracking and then started flyball. At first, I only did it a little bit on the side, but then got way more into it. Honestly I was not a fan of barking at all & if I'd seen a tournament before I started training, I seriously doubt I would have pursued the sport. But, my dogs really loved it and I started to really get into the training & strategy of it all. The barking became background noise at a tournament. When I got my first border collie, she did flyball, agility, and started in herding. She even came along with me to hunt tests. So starting early in flyball didn't ruin her for other sports. But eventually, I enjoyed flyball so much that I stopped doing the other activities. I've now started doing a little agility and obedience again, but flyball is my true love.

 

Also, some folks were concerned that flyball has peaked, or is on its way out because they haven't heard of it. Actually, this year's CanAm event (our national event) had 7 rings of racing and well over 200 teams entered. We hit the guiness world record for a flyball event when we had 2 fewer rings. So, it's going stronger than ever.

[Camden's Mom]

Something that should have been obvious to me, having dabbled in agility and herding, is the "easing into it" training. Perhaps my one experience watching Flyball in person had me a little shell-shocked because a) I was watching a very experienced group of dogs who were functioning in that environment and b ) I had an overstimulated dog by my side that was most certainly NOT functioning in that environment.

 

It's much easier to imagine my boy participating in Flyball if he were given the time and training to *gradually* acclimated to the sport and it's high energy environment. I'm with a LOT of other posters to this thread that I would still need him to be able to settle down between runs and be able to relax while not actively participating. If he couldn't do that, I doubt I'd pursue it. It does sounds like many of you have dogs who know when to be "on" and when to be "off", so that's reassuring!

 

Maybe we'll give it a go once he's fully grown (15 mo, so we're close), if we can find a team that's a good fit for us. As a 1st time dog owner I'm just trying everything out and, like many of you have clearly done, letting the dog let me know which activity he enjoys the most.

 

BTW, I can't speak to any nation or worldwide trends in the sport (as I'm clearly a big newbie to it all) but we seem to have a LOT of flyballers in my area.

[SoFreshSoClean]

We started in flyball with the Malinois and he was darn close to competing when he formally started agility. He runs those 6-7-8 inch jumps in flyball like a pro. He's also lovely jumping at 24" for agility and really only drops bars due to handler error.

 

He understands the difference. Venues, energy, who is with him, visuals, he has different rewards too. I don't know if we're naive or unaware but I never expected anything less from him.

 

I'm not sure how to share photos on this forum but I'm happy to share photos of tournament set-ups and my dogs in the crating area.

 

I was definately advised the same thing, that training for both could create challanges for agility jumps, or make for a less efficienct flyball hurdle. The advice was the same, start with agility, do flyball later. Naturally I ignored the advice, as Cowboy so much loves flyball and is typically ball crazy. His speed and drive, and me as a novice handler, has made agility sequencing a bit of challange. That said I have not found many issues with him knocking bars down in agility. One thing that has worked for me while training him in both simultaniously is when working agility jumping, focus on pinwheels and serpentines, jumps that require turning and twisting and direction changes. Leave the straight shot jumping to flyball. Doing that has made him think of each as a distinct, different task.

[Dana Nichols]

Yes, when new people ask me about coming to see it, I strongly suggest they leave their dog at home or at least have the dog crated in the car. It's a rare dog that isn't excited, if not overwhelmed, by seeing so many dogs racing back & forth. Most of the foundation work we do with a dog alone - teaching them tug drive, ball drive, and some of the basic concepts. We always start the box work alone - on my own dogs I start them at home with absolutely zero distractions. We introduce the dog gradually from the beginning to get used to running next to other dogs by using the side by side recalls next to another dog.

 

For my own dogs, they get hauled to tournaments from the beginning, but we'll work them on foundation skills like tugging in a quiet area away from racing. Or start doing very short recalls in the lanes, during practice time after racing has ended and things are much quieter.

 

If you decide to try it again, I'd suggest attending the club's training session without your dog. Check out how they are training the newer dogs. Make sure they are spending quite a bit of time training a correct box turn instead of pushing the dog to compete right away. And also that they have a good systematic approach for teaching them how to handle a dog in the other lane. There is a ton you can do with a younger dog, but make sure the club is a good fit for you. You can even attend a tournament (without your dog). Watch which teams do well & have well trained dogs (good turns, dogs staying in their lanes, good consistent passes from handlers). See if they teach classes or take new dogs at practices.

 

But, if you decide flyball isn't a good fit for you or your dog, there are lots and lots of other dog sports out there. : )

 

P.S. Here's a link to some photos. The first picture is of our dogs crated at a demonstration. Nearly all the dogs are sacked out in their crates. It's hard to tell, but most of the dogs who are asleep are border collies. http://www.launchflyball.com/tournaments.html

[alligande]

Another reason why I chose not get involved with flyball has nothing to do with dogs but they way the sport is structured. It is a team sport, so first you have to find a team (which in my area can be a little poltical) and then of course you have to compete with them. Because of my work committing to weekends away is very hard, I enter agility as late as possible and if I can't go then it's only me that's bummed and if I am being truthful team sports are not my thing I am a little to independent.

[Root Beer]

. . . . and if I am being truthful team sports are not my thing I am a little to independent.

 

I can definitely relate to that!

[mum24dog]

Sure, that's possible. But I can say that I am hearing about Obedience even though it is not a sport that I take part in. I am hearing a lot about barn hunt and lure coursing, even dock diving, and I don't do any of those things. And nosework, nosework, nosework - seems to be taking everyone by storm in my area!

 

I am talking about what I am hearing among dog sport folks, not the general public at large.

 

Very seldom do I hear anyone talking about other activities amongst my agility circle although I know they happen and some like flyball are very popular.

 

I've turned up to obedience shows and been surprised how many people I meet who I know and who have never mentioned that they do obedience as well and I wouldn't be surprised if the same happened if I were to go to a flyball competition.

 

I think the number of people I know who do HTM, gun dog trials, sheepdog trials and working trials can each be counted on the fingers of one hand but who knows?

[mum24dog]

We started in flyball with the Malinois and he was darn close to competing when he formally started agility. He runs those 6-7-8 inch jumps in flyball like a pro. He's also lovely jumping at 24" for agility and really only drops bars due to handler error.

 

He understands the difference. Venues, energy, who is with him, visuals, he has different rewards too. I don't know if we're naive or unaware but I never expected anything less from him.

 

Too many people underestimate their dog's ability to understand context.

 

I do think it makes sense to start with agility then try flyball rather than the other way round though. Agility includes going on ahead in a straight line but there is much more to it whereas flyball doesn't teach response to directional cues.