Is this fast for agility?

[clbmine]

I know nothing about how to interpret speed in agility, since it was never something I have needed to do.

 

Im really curious to whether the average agility person would consider 5.28m/s (5.77yps) to be fast for a Jumping class, medium/20" (41.5cm/16.33 inch high dog)

This isn't for my dog, I just know of a dog that reaches this speed, and was curious if this was considered fast, or whether its pretty average, or even slow?

I'm talking about for the average agility dog.

[CptJack]

It... depends on the course, the size of the dog, and the venue, actually. How tall is the dog? How many turns were there? Was it a flowing course or a twisting, super technical one? Lots of opportunity for the dog to open up and go or not? Was it a clean run or were their faults/mistakes/bobbles that needed to be corrected? How wide or tight are the turns. Are there weaves on the course?

I mean, yeah, it's fast either way, but HOW fast really depends on a lot of factors. Not slow, but varies between 'fast enough + some' to "blazing, on fire' depending on whether it's a large dog jumping nadac where standard course time/getting a Q in jumpers requires almost 5 YPS for a large dog, or a smaller dog or another venue with more turns, other obstacles (jumpers in AKC has weaves), or whatever.

[mum24dog]

As UK competitors mps means nothing to most of us.

 

Judges' guidelines use mps to set a course time for a measured course but actual performance is measured against the competition on the day.

[Cass C]

Lily is currently averaging between 4.7 and 5 yps, but she is only getting faster when I don't have to hold back quite as much as I need to for technical courses. I have a NADAC trail in a few weeks and am excited to see how much better we do since our last one in November. Like said above its fast, but the type of course and accuracy matter (to me accuracy is more important than how fast my dog is).

[clbmine]

Well, the dog is the height I said above, 41.5cm/16.33 inch tall, so they would be jumping medium height. Its not a border collie though, which I wish it was since this is a border collie forum after all

But sadly, the agility forums are pretty inaccessible. Still a herding breed though...

 

I have a video of them doing the course here:

 

 

They look fast to me, but theres the case that short striding dogs can often look like theyre going much faster than they are, and larger striding dogs look slower, however they can cover more ground with each stride, so I dont know honestly.

 

Its not my dog, by the mother of the pup I am hoping to possibly get, so Im interested to know.

 

They have other videos of the dog on the channel as well where the dog may be faster or slower, as well as with different courses, so I don't know if this is the dog at its best or not either.

 

Gosh, I really don't know. It doesnt matter too much if the dog is fast or not, but it just interests me to know, especially when understanding the agility scene a bit better. I have a large dog too, so I dont watch many medium dogs at all in the competitions we go to, so I have no clue how to determine this type of thing.

 

Im the type of person who prefers speed to accuracy, only because it gets more fun for me to run the faster you and your dog goes, and agility is all about fun!

 

Not like the mps really matter though at the end of the day, like mum24dog said, in the UK mps arent really measured, and since thats where Im from, I dont encounter it that often, so its a foreign concept.

[CptJack]

It just... it's really useless information. That's all I can tell you. The dog isn't slow. That's all I can tell you and frankly all that matters - that the dog makes course time and doesn't make mistakes. That's the ONLY measure of success there is that isn't 200% subjective. There are just too many other variables.

I mean, yeah, I get a kick out of watching my dog's YPS, but I can tell you now that some of her lowest YPS were her fastest runs but involved a lot of wasted times. Some of her fastest she was traveling perceptibly slower but we happened to have really tight lines on a course that was nothing but tunnels. WASTED time on a course simply factors in too much for that to count.

 

The dog's titles are a better measure of success than how fast it goes. Speed really only counts in agility when you're at high levels or if the dog isn't making course time (so is actively very slow). Really - that's it.

 

But. That dog's fast enough to make course time and put on a good show when handled well, and that's exactly as far as how fast it is actually matters.

[clbmine]

"The dog's titles are a better measure of success than how fast it goes"

 

Hmm, the titles the dog has got also mean less than nothing to me.

FI MVA EE MVA HeJW-13 AGI3

 

I know AGI3 is agility level 3, but I think the others are show terms? I have no clue.

 

Yeah, I know speed isnt really important, im not too caring over it, but like I say, just curious. I guess its really difficult to tell ^^;

Doesn't really matter though

[PSmitty]

If the requirement to try out for World Team includes running at least 5.00 yps on Jumpers courses, I'd say that almost 6 yps is considered pretty fast for a medium dog. I watched a bit of the video, I think it's pretty speedy, but what do I know, I don't have a blazing fast dog myself.

 

But, honestly, take all that with a grain of salt, anyway. I really don't believe the speed of the parents is a future predictor of speed in the offspring. So much of it has to do with drive and training. But if the dog is temperamentally sound, healthy, and has a decent amount of drive, should make a good agility dog, regardless.

[airbear]

That dog looks pretty fast to me!

 

In the States, there is a website that compiles the YPS for Jumpers and Standard runs based on AKC runs, and calls it their Power list. As others have said, it really matters how twisty the course is. For example, when I did NADAC back in the day, my dog could reach 9 YPS in tunnelers, but honestly, that's just her flat out running.

[Root Beer]

Just from watching the video, I would classify that dog as "pretty fast".

 

I know that's not really specific, but - as so many have said - there really are a lot of factors that need to be considered.

 

That dog is a lot faster than my current dog, but she is moderate paced, not fast. I've seen faster than that, but - really - that amount of speed would be more than enough for me!!

[mum24dog]

My now retired medium dog in her prime used to range between bat out of hell and slower than a slug depending on the weather and how she felt at the time.

[CptJack]

My now retired medium dog in her prime used to range between bat out of hell and slower than a slug depending on the weather and how she felt at the time.

 

This is pretty much my small dog. She's either a blur or dragging - not, you know, 9YPS but between 5 (she's 11" tall), and oh, 2. LOL.

[dogfish6]

IMO - that video shows a nice speedy dog and very good handler.

 

Having run a very accurate, but rather slow dog, and faster dogs where we either crash and burn or come at as the top dog in the class, I'd much rather run the latter. I learned the hard way to encourage the speed and worry about the accuracy later. In my experience, being too concerned about being "right" on course shut the dog down.

[gcv-border]

OK. I have watched the video and read the comments above.

 

I agree with the general consensus that time (yps or mps) is meaningless (unless it is blazing fast or soooo slow as to not make time on a course). And as others have pointed out, evaluating a dog based on speed is affected by so many variables (course design - tight and twisty or mostly straight lines, weaves or not, etc.) and is not doing the dog - or handler - justice.

 

I also agree that much depends on the handler and training methods for producing a drivey dog - but one that still keeps it wits about him/her.

 

From the video, I saw a dog I would term 'fast', but I have seen faster. [i have faster. Well, I used to, but he is approaching 9 years old now and is slowing a tad.] The most impressive thing was the nice, tight turns that the dog executed (thanks to great training by the handler). To me, that would move that dog into the upper echelons.

[gonetotervs]

I'll just offer that in a win-out system, speed is NOT meaningless. FCI countries -- as far as I know -- operate on some type of win-out system, and if your dog is too slow to make miminum course times, which are generally a fair bit faster than ACK, you cannot and will not move up. The faster the dog, the better your chances of moving to AG3 or the highest levels. Consistency without speed may buy nothing, depending on the country.

[CptJack]

I'll just offer that in a win-out system, speed is NOT meaningless. FCI countries -- as far as I know -- operate on some type of win-out system, and if your dog is too slow to make miminum course times, which are generally a fair bit faster than ACK, you cannot and will not move up. The faster the dog, the better your chances of moving to AG3 or the highest levels. Consistency without speed may buy nothing, depending on the country.

 

Well, I mean, NADAC has some seriously tight course times as you move up and being over SCT is as much a fault as an inaccuracy (and as far as I know ALL venues have standard course times/you won't Q if you're over them), but that doesn't mean that only blazing on fire dogs are making times and moving up.

 

And you still LOSE time if your blazing fast on fire dog is making wide as heck turns, or spinning in circles barking at you on the course.

 

I can come in 15 seconds under SCT and with much, much tighter times than some of the faster dogs sometimes because of a tight turning radius and decent lines.

 

A dog who 'goes fast' alone is, yeah, even there, meaningless. No, you don't want REALLY SLOW, and times are (again) as much a fault as missing a discrimination or going off course. But if SCT requires you run 4 YPS, it doesn't matter if you're doing 4 or 9 - unless you're going to world's, fighting for an ACK invitation or REALLY care about hitting a top 10 list.

 

Still Qed, still get the title, still often get first.

 

 

[CptJack]

Or, I guess, in more simple terms:

YPS or MPS aren't an accurate representation of the dog's speed, and it matters that you be fast enough for SCT, but being faster than anyone else rarely if ever matters.

[Blackdawgs]

Times matter very much. The fastest clean run wins. Period.

[gcv-border]

Times matter, yes. But unless dogs are compared on the same course, times - as measured in yps or mps - can be very misleading. The OP asked whether a specific speed (yps) was indicative of a fast dog.

[PSmitty]

I think Blackdawgs was replying to this by Capt Jack:

and it matters that you be fast enough for SCT, but being faster than anyone else rarely if ever matters.

 

To which I would say, it depends on your goals. If you just want to Q and get titles, you just have to make SCT. If you enjoy the competition aspect, then it's actually does matter if you're faster (i.e. winning).

And there are some classes where it's all about speed, USDAA Steeplechase, for example. You can run clean and moderately fast, but your time has to be within a certain percentage of the top fastest dogs, or you still don't qualify.

Of course, as gonetotervs mentioned, if you trial in a country where you have to win classes to advance, speed matters a lot.

I'm just having a hard time wrapping my head around the thought that speed doesn't matter in a sport where the fastest clean run wins.

[mum24dog]

Of course speed matters, but as already mentioned, mps is not a useful measure of speed.

 

I don't know any handler here in the UK who would have a clue what their dog's mps might be because it doesn't matter, especially with the wide variety of courses we meet.

[airbear]

And there are some classes where it's all about speed, USDAA Steeplechase, for example. You can run clean and moderately fast, but your time has to be within a certain percentage of the top fastest dogs, or you still don't qualify.

 

Yes, and if you win a local Grand Prix, you get a bye to round 2 at a Regionals. Where you can earn a bye into the semi-finals at Cynosport if you're fast and clean. And if you are fast enough in round 2 of Steeplechase at a Regionals, you can earn a bye to the semi-finals at Cyno in that class too. It's a huge advantage to have a bye for Cynosport.

 

Speed matters a lot. YPS, not directly, though they are correlated. SCT means nothing to me, as I find they are set very generously. If we're over time, something went seriously off the rails. And my dog is not fast.

 

I'm just having a hard time wrapping my head around the thought that speed doesn't matter in a sport where the fastest clean run wins.

x 2

[CptJack]

I don't see agility as a 'win/lose' game. I just don't. I'm not competing with other people. Whether they Q or not, whether they are faster than me or not, does not in ANY WAY impact my progression in the sport - particularly not in my venue. The ONLY thing you get for being super crazy fast is an extra award (again: in my venue, which most people here dislike) Doesn't even get me into champs or higher levels or - ANYTHING. Like, literally, you can get a speed star, but... that's it.

 

Being faster than someone else gets me... precisely nothing. Getting first place gains me (or anyone else on a regular weekend)... nothing. Fastest clean run wins WHAT? It's the same 10 point Q/leg toward a title as the slowest clean run under standard course time. There's... nothing in that first ribbon, in fact placement ribbons are the ones I take LEAST often because they mean NOTHING. You can get a first place and not even have a clean run. As long as you have any score, you can get a blue ribbon. Blah.

Clean run under SCT? That matters. The rest makes absolutely zero difference to me at all because it makes no difference what I run, how far I go in the sport, which titles I get, whether I can go to nationals/champs, or - well, anything, really, though it matters where I place if I DO get to champs, I suppose.

 

It also has the (pleasant, for me) side effect of almost entirely eliminating competition between people who are playing the game/dogs.

 

And for me, anything else, rips the heart out of agility and would make it a game I would not care to play.

[clbmine]

@CptJack

In the UK, there are grades from 1-7. (in the Kennel club agility events)

 

If you win an agility competition with a clear round, you move up a grade from grades 1-5

If you win 3 jumping competitions with a clear round, you also move up a grade at grades 1-5

 

The third way is points progression. A clear round will earn you 2 points in agility, and 1 point in jumping, and you need 100 points to progress to the next grade.

If you are in the top 10, in agility you can get from 11-20 points from 10th place to 1st place

in jumping, you get 1-10 points from 10th to 1st place

 

So its definitely based on winning, or at least being in the top 10 with a clear round, or going to many competitions.

In the last competition I went to, at grade 3-4, there were 120 competitors, and some places may have even more, or less.

 

However, once you reach Grade 4, you have to win once in agility, or 3 times in jumping, you can't progress on points.

Grade 5, you need 3 wins with a clear round, one of which must be an Agility win,

And Grade 7, to get to Grade 7, you need 4 wins, 2 must be agility wins.

 

And since in every competition I have been to seems to have such fast dogs, even at grade 1, you have to just try your best! Though I have seen some slower dogs in Grade 3 and other grades, so theres always a chance since so few people get clear rounds on the course from what I have seen.

 

They also section it off so the same grades are only competing against other people in the same grade, except for combined classes I think.

 

Im really not sure how America does it in the slightest. I think FCI countries do it by a clear round to AGI2, and a win to AGI3? I could be completely wrong.

[Root Beer]

If you win an agility competition with a clear round, you move up a grade from grades 1-5

If you win 3 jumping competitions with a clear round, you also move up a grade at grades 1-5

 

The third way is points progression. A clear round will earn you 2 points in agility, and 1 point in jumping, and you need 100 points to progress to the next grade.

If you are in the top 10, in agility you can get from 11-20 points from 10th place to 1st place

in jumping, you get 1-10 points from 10th to 1st place

 

So its definitely based on winning, or at least being in the top 10 with a clear round, or going to many competitions.

 

I am sincerely grateful that we have a titling system instead of that.

 

You never have to "win" over anyone to progress through the levels in most of the US Agility venues.

 

Suits me much better. I have never been one to want to "win" over anyone else. Even hated board games as a kid for that reason!!