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I would just like to clarify that RB is talking about freestyle dog dancing, NOT competitive obedience which I am. I am aware for the sport of freestyle, that as part of the performance dogs need to heel on all sides of the handler plus do lots of other "showier" moves.

 

Showy moves, creative moves, technically difficult moves carried out with obvious precision! :rolleyes:

 

Of course the heelwork side of Musical Freestyle is more about precise work in all of the "heel" positions around the handler's body. This is something that I've gotten into more recently and have really come to appreciate. This is where your movement in "front" position is going to come into play much more heavily, as well as smooth transition from one "heel position" to another. The dog's ability to sustain the position (whichever position the dog is in) while moving is really what is being showcased in Heelwork to Music. "Dog Dancing" doesn't really describe it, even though it is also a choreographed routine to music. :D

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And FYI, the methods I am describing come not from me but highly respected trainers/competitors one of them winning the National Obedience Championship many other top ranked, and many having top ranked border collies.

 

And it is obvious that studying the methods of the trainers that you admire is a true passion of yours. And that you are clear on what you value when it comes to training and competition.

 

I can relate to that, even though the trainers that I admire and study, and what I value when it comes to training and competition, and my definition of success in dog sports are all very different from yours.

 

But we do seem to have a great amount of interest and enthusiasm for training and competition in common.

 

I always say - it's good for people to know as much as possible about what their options are. :rolleyes:

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Shyshepherdess, I think I know 1 or 2 of the seasoned successful competitors of whom you speak. They are impressive and I love watching them. I think all your suggestions are great ones, all of which I have done with my own dogs. I completely understand where you're coming from as far as seeking out successful trainers with proven methods. I do this myself. I've attended a Celeste seminar, I've seen her perform in the ring. I've also been up to her place for a Sylvia seminar. I am impressed and awed by both of them, among others.

I am nowhere near as competitive in the obedience ring. I do it for fun and I don't take any of it too seriously. I did put a CDX on my GSD and a UD on my aussie. I just simply love teaching obedience to my dogs and I also love experimenting with different ideas and learning newer and better ways to help teach my dogs. I love figuring out how to communicate what I'm asking of them and I love watching them learn and master tasks.

 

I think teaching my dogs to do different tricks and various tasks I ask of them in new and different ways can definitely enhance their performance in the ring. It also helps to keep things new and exciting for me and my dogs.

 

I did teach Chase (my bc) to focus on me from the side first. I very much agree that the dog must understand where heel position is first. Chase understood where heel position was and how to get into perfect heel position before I added me walking backwards with him walking towards me and then having him flip into heel while I changed directions. I really truly think this helped him understand to keep his focus on me while heeling. He is the best heeling dog I've ever owned so far because I did take the time to make sure he understood where heel position was and how to get there.

I was only suggesting it to BCKris to help her with the duration of attention and focus and maybe she would find it an easier transition into heel position. Don't know, just a suggestion.

 

I find all of the information here useful and there is nothing that I would ever disagree with, and honestly I don't count myself among the experts in any way :rolleyes:

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I also love experimenting with different ideas and learning newer and better ways to help teach my dogs. I love figuring out how to communicate what I'm asking of them and I love watching them learn and master tasks.

 

I'm curious about something!! Is this not something your mentors encourage you to do?

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I also truly love experimenting with different methods aswell!! The sport of competitive obedience has really grown from what it used to be in terms of training methods!! And there is a HUGE range of styles in terms of training foundation exercises, sustained attention, etc. I do competitive obedience first and foremost cause my dogs LOVE it!!! The minute they showed that they truly weren't enjoying it we would not be doing it anymore :rolleyes: And alot of these top trainers stress that aswell!

 

I am always interested in hearing new perspectives and learning new ideas. If someone can prove to me that there idea has actually proven succesful. Theory's and ideas need to be tried, tested and tweaked. TEACHING the heel for anyone wanting to is pretty easy. I took a dog that didn't know me the other day in class, stuck a piece of cheese in its face and perfect, prancing, sustained heeling no prob. It's pretty wasy to teach a dog anything in the initial stages of shaping, whether it be rear end awareness, fronts, etc. It's further on down the line when competing that you see the holes in your training methodology. That's why advice from people obtaining the status of an OTCH, or UD is so valuable and demands respect. Years of testing there way of training, going back and tweaking it, learning, perfecting, etc. Thats when the truly awesome trainer/handler/dog teams seperate themselves from the rest. NOT saying that the people who maybe don't make it there don't have good ideas, enjoy there relationship with there dogs, etc.

 

I know from experience that alot of the methods being sudjested in these threads for heeling will wind up with the dog sniffing the ground in there first Novice run....and maybe that's what people want? It's all about the journey and finding things out for themselves? I just know personaly and I am sure I am not alone, but if someone with more miles and experience sudjested some ideas that had been proven to aid in many dog/handler competition teams.....I would take it.

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I'm curious about something!! Is this not something your mentors encourage you to do?

 

It's alittle complicated, Kristine. I'll try to keep it short.

My 1st instructor I loved. In fact she got me very interested in the sport of obedience. I was a total newbie and she inspired me. I listened to every single thing she taught, I practiced every single thing she taught and I was successful in the ring. Not greatly successful but I earned titles.

I moved away and had to find a new instructor. I wasn't happy about it but came to realize she was the best thing ever for me at that point. She was the one who forced me to think on my own about what my dogs needed from me to help them understand what I was asking. She was the one that forced me out of my comfort zone. I had a completely different idea before meeting her of how instructors were supposed to teach.

The 1st teacher wanted me to do things her way and all the sudden this new instructor was encouraging me to 'figure it out' so to speak. Ended up being the best thing in the world for me. I went to and still attend many seminars. I'm sort of a junkie that way.

So anyway, I'm back with my 1st instructor now because I moved back into the area. Still love her, still respect her. However she is more of a coach for me now. I have different ways of doing things and sometimes we butt heads.

Anway, to truly answer your question, right now I don't have a mentor/instructor who encourages me to try new and different things. As it is now, I take it upon myself to keep up with the newer and different approaches and new ways of training by trying to attend seminars from the people I admire.

 

I do believe a really great instructor is one who will inspire and encourage you to experiment. I am missing that right now :rolleyes:

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I know from experience that alot of the methods being sudjested in these threads for heeling will wind up with the dog sniffing the ground in there first Novice run....and maybe that's what people want?

 

Actually, you don't know that. You don't know the dogs that we have used these methods with. You don't know us as trainers. You don't know what would happen. You think you know (in fact, it is evident that you are completely convinced), but, in fact, you do not know. (Note - that was said in a very matter of fact tone. I know it would be easy to read indignation into that, but there is none. I was very matter of fact while saying that. :rolleyes:)

 

For you to say that a technique will fail, the burden of proof is on you. And the fact that you tried something that sounded similar did not have the results that you wanted, does not prove anything about another dog and handler team that actually has had success with it.

 

Nobody here wants to have our dogs end up sniffing when we compete in the sports of our choice. We are not using techniques that you feel are not proven in order to set ourselves up for failure. We are doing what we have judged to be appropriate for our dogs, and of course we have reasonable expectation that the results will be good.

 

It's all about the journey and finding things out for themselves?

 

To some of us, it really is. That's not to say we don't have mentors, nor that we don't value good instruction. Of course, solid instruction is important if you are going to earn Q's and Titles. Right now I am studying with an excellent Freestyle instructor who is at the very top of the sport. Want to know something interesting? She is as interested in the ideas and perspectives of her students as she is in teaching them. She has taught me some amazing stuff that actually helped my dog and I to earn a very difficult Q a few weeks back. At the same time, she values what her students bring to the table. A rare treasure in an instructor, but they are out there!

 

But yes, a lot of it is about discovery and learning how to best help our dogs learn. I see that as the first step in achieving success in competition. And I value that above any Title.

 

I just know personaly and I am sure I am not alone, but if someone with more miles and experience sudjested some ideas that had been proven to aid in many dog/handler competition teams.....I would take it.

 

Sometimes I do, and sometimes I don't. It depends a lot on what is being suggested and whether or not it is appropriate for my dog. And for me, for that matter. There are some things I simply will not do to any dog, "results" notwithstanding. But that's not really the topic at hand. If an idea has been "proven" and it is something that is appropriate for me and my dog, then I will often give it a shot. Otherwise, I find something else. There are always options.

 

And you know - sometimes a new idea is even better than one with a lot of miles and experience. Imagine if nobody had ever taken the plunge and began to break away from the heavily corrective methods and moved into a more reinforcement based approach. Imagine if everyone had assumed that a newer and "unproven" approach could not work.

 

I'm not going to limit myself by anyone else's level of experience. I am more than willing to take training risks if those risks are in my dog's best interest. My own experience with that has been very good. Sure, not everything goes according to plan. But when it does . . . WOW! Now, that's success. :D

 

I'm sure you are not alone. I'm sure there are many who share your perspective. But just as every dog is not the same, neither is every person.

 

Some of us don't need "proof" to know a good idea when we see it. And some of us are willing to take a bit of a leap of faith.

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It's further on down the line when competing that you see the holes in your training methodology.

 

This is so true! Been there while putting the UD on my dog. Changed a couple of my training approaches on the road to the UD.

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I do believe a really great instructor is one who will inspire and encourage you to experiment. I am missing that right now :rolleyes:

 

I agree. I've been blessed with many instructors who have done that for me along the way.

 

Maybe I've taken that for granted.

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Upon reflection, I wanted to reply to a bit more of your post! :rolleyes:

 

TEACHING the heel for anyone wanting to is pretty easy. I took a dog that didn't know me the other day in class, stuck a piece of cheese in its face and perfect, prancing, sustained heeling no prob. It's pretty wasy to teach a dog anything in the initial stages of shaping, whether it be rear end awareness, fronts, etc.

 

Of course, the dog and handler move beyond that after the initial stages. Did you really have the impression that I was suggesting that anyone not move beyond the initial stages at the appropriate time?

 

Of course, you have to build duration and help the dog learn to process distraction in a way that helps him to continue to focus when he faces it in competition.

 

It's further on down the line when competing that you see the holes in your training methodology. That's why advice from people obtaining the status of an OTCH, or UD is so valuable and demands respect. Years of testing there way of training, going back and tweaking it, learning, perfecting, etc. Thats when the truly awesome trainer/handler/dog teams seperate themselves from the rest. NOT saying that the people who maybe don't make it there don't have good ideas, enjoy there relationship with there dogs, etc.

 

Yes, as you go along, you find holes. One of the greatest joys for me is figuring out how to fill in those holes and move to a higher level of proficiency. I've probably learned more through that process than I ever have from any one instructor.

 

Quite frankly, I don't want someone else - I don't care what title that person has - to take that process over for me.

 

The testing, going back, tweaking, learning, perfecting - that is one of the best parts of growing as a team.

 

If those handlers that you admire so much had the privilege of doing that for themselves, why would you take issue with someone else doing the same thing?

 

As far as the fact that I recommend things on the board that you don't consider substantially "proven", that is up to those reading to decide for themselves. They are intelligent people who know their dogs. They have as much right as the trainers that you admire to try and learn and find what works best for them and their dogs. And it is good for them to know that they have options.

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Oh yes, it's good for people to know that they have options, but should also know that the person giving certain options has not set foot in a competitive obedience ring so therefore the methods or ideas they are sudjestions, although sound great, have not been tested or proven in that venue. JUST so people know.

 

And I have NO problem taking and applying different trainers ideas or methods, it's ALWAYS interesting and I personaly love to try newer approaches! The succesful trainer/handlers out there all started somewhere and have there own ideas, which were then reflected in the success they have at a competitive level, the work of there dogs and the students they usually inspire and teach.

 

And yes, although I don't know the SPECIFIC dogs using similar methods described for teaching the heel, I do know that working a t afacility that has seen hundreds of dogs throught the doors, students starting out or teaching with similar methods DID NOT end up being succesful when applying them down the road in competition. That's why I feel obligated to at least let people reading this thread know that, if they are ever interested in setting foot inside a ring. That's the only reason I am still participating in this conversation! Cause as other seasoned competitors involved in threads similar to this one...it just gets to frustrating...

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Oh yes, it's good for people to know that they have options, but should also know that the person giving certain options has not set foot in a competitive obedience ring so therefore the methods or ideas they are sudjestions, although sound great, have not been tested or proven in that venue. JUST so people know.

 

Sure, I don't compete in AKC obedience. Never said I did.

 

But these techniques have been tested in APDT Rally and WCFO Musical Freestyle (and in Freestyle, I am in the higher levels with one dog). While those are not venues or sports that you personally consider valid, most people on this board actually don't consider AKC Obedience to be the be all end all in dog training, nor the only "ring" that counts.

 

And yes, although I don't know the SPECIFIC dogs using similar methods described for teaching the heel, I do know that working a t afacility that has seen hundreds of dogs throught the doors, students starting out or teaching with similar methods DID NOT end up being succesful when applying them down the road in competition.

 

I'd love to hear more specifics about the techniques that they were using. That fact that food was involved does not make it all exactly the same as anything I've suggested. I would be willing to wager that I do a lot of things quite a bit differently from what they were doing, especially since it fell apart to an extent that it affects you so deeply.

 

Which program were they following? How, exactly, were they building duration? How, exactly, were they building focus in the face of distraction?

 

Where did they run into trouble in competition? What exact "holes" did they all universally experience? What had they done, specificially, to prepare for those elements of competition?

 

That's why I feel obligated to at least let people reading this thread know that, if they are ever interested in setting foot inside a ring. That's the only reason I am still participating in this conversation! Cause as other seasoned competitors involved in threads similar to this one...it just gets to frustrating...

 

It gets frustrating that there are people having success using methods that you believe are the same as those that have apparently failed for others? Or that I am attesting to success in the competitive venues that are not those of your preference?

 

Heelwork is not exclusive property of AKC obedience. And there are many methods of teaching heeling that work, and work well. Again, the burden of proof of certain failure is really on you.

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I have a great deal of respect for anyone who can achieve success as a trainer/handler regardless of there methods. It's not certain methods that I am disputing, if you can do it GREAT!!! I do have a problem with CERTAIN people sudjesting CERTAIN methods who have absolutely no idea if they work in a CERTAIN applications....meaning, competitive obedience and I DON'T mean just AKC. UKC and ASCA hold obedience trials.

 

And from previous threads similar to this nobody who has obtained a high level of success in competition considers Rally or Canine Freestlye to be high levels of work, period. Nobody I know who has achieved the top level of success in there venue whether it be agility, herding OR obedience ever takes Rally or Freestyle seriously. They either do it "for fun" or to get there young dogs feet wet. Not in itself. I DO however know many people who compete in Rally that NEVER get past it not because they want to but because they CAN'T. If you are so sure RB that your way or training would hold up in real competion then why don't you do it? Enter an ASCA show, run a heel pattern. Just don't come on here and make it seem like you can when you haven't. Because it's really disrespectful to those of us who HAVE obtained that.

 

I would never claim to know how to train for freestyle, never have.

 

And I think you know most poeple on here are looking for advice as it relates to obedience exercises, NOT freestyle or they would have specified.

 

I feel bad saying this because I don't mean any disrespect to anyone wanting to just have fun with there border collie, and trying somthing like Rally or freestyle is a great way to get started in dog sports. And if you and the dog enjoy it more power to ya. Just be careful where you get your info from...

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I have a great deal of respect for anyone who can achieve success as a trainer/handler regardless of there methods. It's not certain methods that I am disputing, if you can do it GREAT!!! I do have a problem with CERTAIN people sudjesting CERTAIN methods who have absolutely no idea if they work in a CERTAIN applications....meaning, competitive obedience and I DON'T mean just AKC. UKC and ASCA hold obedience trials.

 

When it comes down to it, I could just as easily say that the methods that you are suggested are "unproven" in CERTAIN applications. :rolleyes:

 

And from previous threads similar to this nobody who has obtained a high level of success in competition considers Rally or Canine Freestlye to be high levels of work, period.

 

Go earn the highest level title in Musical Freestyle (Perfect Dance Partners - both in Freestyle and Heelwork), then tell me it's not a high level of work. Seriously - you have absolutely no idea how difficult it is.

 

Go earn an ARCHMX and then tell me it's not a high level of work. Again, you have absolutely no idea how difficult it is.

 

Now, I am not saying I've done either of those things, but I'm working toward both. And I have to say with all honesty that anyone who has not tried it and thinks it is not a high level of work is just making assumptions.

 

Now, we could debate which dog sport requires the "most work" or has the highest level of difficulty. And that debate would go on forever with no resolution.

 

Nobody I know who has achieved the top level of success in there venue whether it be agility, herding OR obedience ever takes Rally or Freestyle seriously.

 

The only people whose opinion I would respect on that are those who have achieved the highest title in Musical Freestyle (Perfect Dance Partners - both in Freestyle and Heelwork) and an ARCHMX.

 

How many people do you know who have done that?

 

They either do it "for fun" or to get there young dogs feet wet.

 

How many of those people have the highest level WCFO title (Perfect Dance Partners - both in Freestyle and Heelwork) and the ARCHMX?

 

I DO however know many people who compete in Rally that NEVER get past it not because they want to but because they CAN'T.

 

How many of those people have an ARCHMX and the highest level title in WCFO Freestyle (Perfect Dance Partners - both in Freestyle and Heelwork)?

 

If you are so sure RB that your way or training would hold up in real competion then why don't you do it?

 

If you are so sure it is so easy peasy to earn an ARCHMX or the highest level title in WCFO Freestyle (Perfect Dance Partners - both in Freestyle and Heelwork), why don't you do it?

 

If it's such a joke, why don't you prove it?

 

Enter an ASCA show, run a heel pattern. Just don't come on here and make it seem like you can when you haven't. Because it's really disrespectful to those of us who HAVE obtained that.

 

I am disrespectful to obedience folks because my passion is Musical Freestyle? And that's the context in which my training is "tested".

 

Exactly how is that?

 

And I think you know most poeple on here are looking for advice as it relates to obedience exercises, NOT freestyle or they would have specified.

 

Actually, I know that most people on here are looking for general training advice. Most of them are not aspiring to the high levels of Obedience. They are looking to be successful in beginner and advanced beginner level classes.

 

And the suggestions that I am making are more than appropriate. Like I said before - these people are intelligent folks who know their dogs. They can decide for themselves. :D

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When doing heel work is the dog suppose to look up at the handler or is that something handlers prefer? I only ask because watching youtube videos on obedience they all do, but when i have watched our advanced class during our novice training class none of the dogs look at the handler.

 

The heads up attention you see on YT is a taught behavior. It is "preferred" but not required. If the classes you are attending and watching are done through a "club" not a private training center, most of the time they don't teach it. It's not easy, it's not going to happen if you have previously taught the dog to heel w/o it and generally most of the exhibitors that are not "hard core" don't bother. To me if you are going to teach comp. heeling you may as well teach them w/heads up right away, but then again, I was a "hard core" competitor :rolleyes:

 

Having gone through the ranks with many dogs, I can say, they all were different. You also have to take into account the structure on the dog you are working with. A short back has different center of gravity, a long neck will have a more upright head appearance, a well laid back shoulder will give you some of the "strutt" action. You will need to modify "where" they look as the pups grow and their body changes. The basic mechanics are the same they will just need some adaptions along the way as they grow.

 

I never begin to teach the HU heeling from a stationary position, I start them from the git go on the move, face it, pups have zero attention span and sitting there "watching" me has to be worse than watching paint dry! I will start them with a food lure, left hand, cookie in their nose and take a step or two, break out and play with a tug, and fall back into heel right out of the play, no starting over or setting up simply drop the cookie into the nose and move again. I find this keeps the animation, drive and fun in it. As we progress the cookie moves up, still in LH, in line of heel position. The variable reinforcement is always in play, sometimes 3 step, sometimes 1 sometimes 5 and I build on it. I also do this in large left circles to begin with, no turns, no stops, one continuous "bend" with the dog inside so as to be in relative "position" - remember I am dealing with the location of the "head" and they are having to figure out they can, walk, eat, and think all at the same time! With time and maturity I will start asking for the body to get into position, but in the beginning I am simply asking for the head and "mind" to focus.

 

RB wrote -

Actually, I know that most people on here are looking for general training advice. Most of them are not aspiring to the high levels of Obedience. They are looking to be successful in beginner and advanced beginner level classes

 

How do you know this? Do you know most people on here personally? The OP specifically said "obedience" and reference YT vids. I'm not sure why MF and HTM came into the thread?

 

RB wrote -

Yes, as you go along, you find holes. One of the greatest joys for me is figuring out how to fill in those holes and move to a higher level of proficiency. I've probably learned more through that process than I ever have from any one instructor.

 

That's great that you are learning through mistakes. However, filling in the holes "after the fact" is still a foundation built on swiss cheese. One would hope that the "next" dog doesn't have the same holes. I've seen plenty of swiss cheese foundations in obedience and inevitably they show up when you least expect it, it's the default behavior the dog learned the first time that they revert back to in high stress competition atmospheres.

 

Back on topic...I also start the pups with all the distraction there right away. I am not asking for perfection, the environment can give you plenty of distraction as can life or a training class, I am not going to teach them in a "pristine" environment and then throw in the distraction. I will back up on "what" I am asking - 3 steps instead of 5 and build and then next time I will start one step below where I left off.

 

Once the pup is comfortable in the left circle I will start straight lines. The right circle, requires the dog to "drive" on it's rear so that is one of the last directions I go. I also, break out all the turns, they are taught individually, not in conjunction w/heeling, as well as the "take off". Oh, just a small FYI, you also want to teach the pup to take off when you move, not necessarily on a certain foot - my dogs all knew to take off when I moved, no verbal required. The cue was from the fact they had "attention" and were focused, knew their "job" and knew body cue's.

 

Keep it light, keep the toys and games in the heeling and keep it relatively "short" on HU heeling in the beginning! Have fun and don't be afraid to play! With a Border Collie, I might advise against "throwing" a toy when training heeling. This disconnects you from the dog, play tug, back up and have them come at you to get the tug (keep backing up) then you can fall into heel when the tug is released and go forward. I simply don't "encourage" forging by "allowing the dog to fly forward" of me - break out - back up - play - fall into heel and continue.

 

Good luck!

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How do you know this? Do you know most people on here personally? The OP specifically said "obedience" and reference YT vids. I'm not sure why MF and HTM came into the thread?

 

It came up when I brought it up.

 

What is so sacred about the topic of "obedience heeling" that it is such a horrible thing to branch the discussion out into heelwork in other disciplines? I don't hear the OP objecting to a broader discussion. Most topics on the board expand into broader discussions that that which the OP began.

 

The topic of the thread is "heel work". I brought up a perspective from another discipline. I'm sorry if that upsets you, but others have found it helpful and relevant.

 

That's great that you are learning through mistakes. However, filling in the holes "after the fact" is still a foundation built on swiss cheese. One would hope that the "next" dog doesn't have the same holes. I've seen plenty of swiss cheese foundations in obedience and inevitably they show up when you least expect it, it's the default behavior the dog learned the first time that they revert back to in high stress competition atmospheres.

 

Now, that's a great way to twist what I said around. :rolleyes:

 

I am not advocating "learning through mistakes." I am saying that there is more than one way to train heeling and the obedience experts do not have the "one and only way" to do so. I believe that it is good for traniers/owners/handlers to consider as many options as possible and choose what is right for themselves and the individual dog. And yes, people in disciplines other than traditional obedience do teach solid and reliable heeling through different techniques.

 

I would go so far as to say that it is better to risk some mistakes than to fail to consider one's training options fully, and what is appropriate for one's individual dog. That does not equate to advocating "learning through mistakes", however.

 

It really is OK for people to learn to think for themselves when it comes to training their dogs. I would say there is a great deal to be gained from learning to think for oneself and make informed decisions about one's training, regardless of one's training goals. The fact that this sparks such an outcry from some of you is extremely interesting to me.

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Shyshepherdess, I am still very interested in your answers to these questions, which I posted above:

 

You had written:

 

And yes, although I don't know the SPECIFIC dogs using similar methods described for teaching the heel, I do know that working a t afacility that has seen hundreds of dogs throught the doors, students starting out or teaching with similar methods DID NOT end up being succesful when applying them down the road in competition.

 

And my questions (in bold):

 

I'd love to hear more specifics about the techniques that they were using. That fact that food was involved does not make it all exactly the same as anything I've suggested. I would be willing to wager that I do a lot of things quite a bit differently from what they were doing, especially since it fell apart to an extent that it affects you so deeply.

 

Which program were they following? How, exactly, were they building duration? How, exactly, were they building focus in the face of distraction?

 

Where did they run into trouble in competition? What exact "holes" did they all universally experience? What had they done, specificially, to prepare for those elements of competition?

 

Also, I had asked you a question in this thread that I guess you never saw . . .

 

http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=28184

 

My questions are in Post #14 of the thread. I am particularly interested in your answers to those questions, as well. Since that would not be on topic in this thread, I'll look for your answer in that topic. Or, if you would rather answer by PM, that would be fine.

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It came up when I brought it up.

 

OK, you still have failed to answer my questions though - here I will once again ask since you apparently missed them - you wrote

Actually, I know that most people on here are looking for general training advice. Most of them are not aspiring to the high levels of Obedience. They are looking to be successful in beginner and advanced beginner level classes

 

How do you "know this" Don't you find it somewhat belittling to those that do aspire to higher goals to be lumped in with your so called beginner and advanced beginner (whatever that it?)? I find that if you spoon feed people they never try to achieve higher on their own, therefore I don't think (or know) that most are NOT aspiring to higher levels.

 

What is so sacred about the topic of "obedience heeling" that it is such a horrible thing to branch the discussion out into heelwork in other disciplines? I don't hear the OP objecting to a broader discussion. Most topics on the board expand into broader discussions that that which the OP began.

 

Nothing whatsoever is "sacred" I find it hilarious that you attempt to always turn the conversation to your venue when it is NOT what was asked and where you have NO experience whatsoever.

 

The topic of the thread is "heel work". I brought up a perspective from another discipline. I'm sorry if that upsets you, but others have found it helpful and relevant.

 

Your passive aggressive responses are getting old. Where do you see that this topic "upset" me? Obviously you don't know me.....

 

 

The fact that this sparks such an outcry from some of you is extremely interesting to me.

 

Well, when your beginner dogs don't run out of the ring and when you have tried gaining a title in obedience you may understand where many are coming from. As far as an "outcry" no, just simply putting other ideas, as you always say, out to the public so they understand the entire picture from people who have been there :rolleyes:

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How do you "know this" Don't you find it somewhat belittling to those that do aspire to higher goals to be lumped in with your so called beginner and advanced beginner (whatever that it?)? I find that if you spoon feed people they never try to achieve higher on their own, therefore I don't think (or know) that most are NOT aspiring to higher levels.

 

Go through and read the posts in this section asking for advice, and you will find your answer. I'd go through and find quotes for you, but I don't have the time. You can do that yourself.

 

Note, I said "most" people - not all. That "lumps" nobody. Do you really need that spelled out? OK. "Most" does not mean "all". Anyone who does "aspire to higher goals" is not part of that "most". Does that help? I hope so.

 

FWIW, I have no qualms offering suggestions that have worked for me to those with aspirations to higher levels. I think those people are intelligent enough to decide for themselves what is appropriate for themselves and their dogs.

 

Nothing whatsoever is "sacred" I find it hilarious that you attempt to always turn the conversation to your venue when it is NOT what was asked and where you have NO experience whatsoever.

 

You're pretty comical, too. :rolleyes: Your hyperfocus on my contribution to these conversations is hilarious.

 

It seems we are mutually amused.

 

Your passive aggressive responses are getting old. Where do you see that this topic "upset" me? Obviously you don't know me.....

 

Nor do you know me.

 

Well, when your beginner dogs don't run out of the ring and when you have tried gaining a title in obedience you may understand where many are coming from. As far as an "outcry" no, just simply putting other ideas, as you always say, out to the public so they understand the entire picture from people who have been there :D

 

My beginner dogs have not run out of the ring. Nor have my dogs done so as they have moved toward and (in one case) into the higher levels. It may not be the "ring" of your preference, but - I can't believe you don't already know this - I have competed - many times in sports where my dog must heel off leash in a competition ring. Those rings come complete with stress, distractions, etc. Some of which would rarely be found in an obedience ring.

 

Now, I realize that you consider all of my experience null and void because it is in disciplines other than competition obedience. Your opinion on the matter does not render that to be true.

 

I have been clear about the disciplines in which I have experience. I enjoy discussion on training heelwork, regardless of the discipline in which one chooses to train and compete. I honestly don't know what is "passive aggressive" about that. But, whatever floats your boat.

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Kristine,

 

What sports do you compete in, and at what level?

 

Thanks.

Jodi

 

Currently, I compete in APDT Rally, WCFO Musical Freestyle, and WCFO Heelwork to Music, and CPE Agility.

 

Levels vary from sport to sport and dog to dog.

 

Speedy competes in Level 3 (highest level) in APDT Rally, and the Veteran's Division. Dean, my youngster, who started Rally last August, needs one more leg in Level 2 and then we will work on our ARCH Title before moving into Level 3. Speedy competes in Intermediate in both Musical Freestyle and Heelwork to Music. While it sounds kind of "in the middle", Intermediate is really the first of the "higher levels" in Freestyle. It's the level that sends most teams packing. Dean just finished Beginner Musical Freestyle and will move into Novice this fall. I might do some Heelwork with him, too, and so we would be in Beginner for that. In CPE Agility, Maddie is in Level 4 in most of the categories. She still needs a few more Level 3 Q's in Standard and one in Snooker to get into Level 4 for all of the categories in which we compete.

 

How 'bout you? Competed in any dog sports? What levels did you compete at?

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....are you asking Jodi, or does this apply to everyone....

 

I was asking Jodi. I know she is involved with stockwork. I'm interested to know if she has sport experience, as well, and what that might be.

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So you are interested in dual stockwork/sport people??? I am one of those people, do you have a question you would like to ask?

 

No, I don't. :rolleyes: If I did, I probably would have started a new topic and thrown it out to everyone.

 

Jodi asked me a question about my experience in dog sports and I asked one about hers. I honestly don't know whether she has been involved with dog sports or not - that was really why I asked. I only brought up stockwork because I know she is involved with stockwork, not because I wanted to discuss it. There really isn't anything more to it than that. :D

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