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Duncan's been attending obedience classes every week (with only a few exceptions) since he was a young pup, in one venue from another. He's almost a year old now. He's great at most things. But... the last couple of weeks, in particular, it seems as if he's having more and more trouble with heeling, especially in the face of the distractions posed by other dogs.

 

Classes are held in a huge room (National Guard Armory), with probably half a dozen different classes running simultaneously. It's very echo-ey and a highly distracting environment. There are probably a dozen or so dogs in our class, so I'm guessing upwards of 50 dogs there (in total) while we're there. Someone is always barking.

 

In our neighborhood, he heels beautifully - assuming no distractions. He seems to know that he's doing what I want, and he smiles up at me the whole time. Stops on a dime when I stop, seems to understand the words "halt", "left", "right", "slowly", "faster", and respond accordingly, and he LOVES the fact that he has it all figured out. But if he sees a kid (he LOVES kids), or another dog, or someone bouncing a basketball, then I'm just spitting in the wind to try to retain his attention.

 

At first in obedience class he was only inattentive at the beginning of each class, subsequently switching into "working" mode. But the last two weeks in class he's been particularly inattentive throughout when asked to heel. If he wasn't so good at everything else, I'd think they'd politely ask us to go back to rank beginners. He totally ignores me, fixating on the other dogs. (He LOVES other dogs. They don't always love him. He has bad doggie manners. He stares, and when he gets close to other dogs, he sends his nose straight for their genitals). He pulls hard on the leash in all directions. He doesn't pay the slightest bit of attention to me. I think he knows he's disappointing me, because his body language the last couple of weeks isn't as jubilant as it's normally been. The trainer just tells me to give him leash corrections. It isn't working, and neither I nor Duncan is particularly happy at present.

 

Apart from heeling, he's great in class. I can put him in a sit or down stay, even in the midst of all these dogs, and walk fifty feet away clapping my hands and he'll keep his stay for a good five minutes, until I release him.

 

There doesn't seem to be much "middle ground" for him. He's either responsive to me, or he's totally lost to the major distractions (kids, dogs, basketballs) of life.

 

So: should I chalk this up to adolescence - hope he'll come back to me soon? Hope that neutering him (he's scheduled for it in March, during my spring break) will help? Find a less distracting environment for obedience classes? Sign him up for a local "Control Unleashed" class being offered at the end of this month? What are your recommendations?

 

My last Border collie was far less interested in other dogs, and I don't recall her losing her brain to such an extent. But she lived a long life (18), so I may simply be forgetting what she was like at a year of age.

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Correcting him wont make heeling more fun for him!

Especialy at his age I would go back to being megga megga rewarding, only ask for a tiny bit of attention

 

One thing I have done with my Mia was to just let her sniff about and do whatever she wanted then click and reward any time she showed any interest in me (even tirning an ear towards me). While she was still eating I send her away to do her own thing again. I reward lots and lots

Then after a short while she starts checking in with me more and more so I then reward, ask for a sit or something, reward and send her away again

The thing is she is choosing to work with me, I become more interesting than the distractions. After a short time she is heeling fantasticaly - and trust me Mia is so reactive when I first got her she could get distracted by something and run off to investigate when she was in the middle of a poo!

 

It worked for a friends dog who was v stressed and not motivated, his body language changed from hang dog to major keen in 3 clicks

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You need to make yourself more interesting than the other dogs. Does he have toy drive?? I try to keep heeling sessions short and energized! Lots of breaks mid-heeling with playing/tugging!

 

Another way to go is working on stationary attention, moving up to distractions while stationary before he gets all amped up. Then gradually working back to movement.

 

Grab a handful of treats. If he has a toy play with him, get him excited then have him sit, and you step into heel postion. While he is looking up at you praise and feed him the tidbits. Then break and play. repeat. If he looks off give him a little collar pop marked immediately with a marker word like yes, jackpot treats and break and play. Gradually work in distractions always setting the dog up for success. You don't want to push him past something he is not ready for. He will revert right back to his old behavior!

 

Good luck!!!

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Correcting him wont make heeling more fun for him!

 

This is exactly how I feel about it. The trainer has also been giving me grief for giving him treats. Gave us all a big lecture on Wednesday about how, if we feel we HAVE to give treats, we should make sure we're not dropping crumbs that will only distract the other dogs. I felt as if this was being directed at me, as I've been the only person (pretty much) offering treats. (And no, we haven't been dropping crumbs).

 

I'm thinking it's time I switch to a different class. I signed on to this one in part because they offered CGC testing, but if we're not having fun, and he's learning that heeling is exquisite torture, then what's the point?

 

(I also chose this class because in the 'intermediate' class with the last trainer I liked, there was only one other dog; that situation didn't provide ENOUGH distraction. But the present situation, I feel, is a move in the wrong direction, both with respect to the trainer and the setting).

 

Is this a situation that "Control Unleashed" would help? At least I'd be in a smaller (but hopefully not too small) class, with a trainer who uses positive approaches?

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What are your goals? Are you hoping to compete? This will greatly influence advice.

 

Heeling should be fun. LOTS of breaks with play,treats, praise and toys to build drive in the dog and keep there focus on you. However, the dog needs to learn at some point and to a degree that it is HIS responsibility to pay attention to you. And that he needs to pay attention to you whether he wants to or not.

 

Another game you can play is changing up the heel pattern. Make it fun and interesting. Set your dog up for a moment where you know he will be distracted, then kinda poke him in the side and run the other way, getting him to play and heel quickly in the other direction.

 

You NEED to make yourself fun and more interesting than the other dogs!!! A hugely respected/legendary dog trainer who had bc's is fondly remembered heeling with frisbees on her head!!! Whatever it takes!!!

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Think twice about nuetering him for a while please!

 

Heeling, you say you are the only one giving treats? Find a better class. Heeling should not be 1 hour long and all you do in class. Sounds like the distractions are to heavy for him right now, back up to where he succeeds! Pull out the treats and go back to "luring" until he is comfortable again, then vary it up as to when he gets a treat, 5 steps, or 3 or maybe 7 - make sure you treat him "before" his breaking point, build on this but building isn't necessarily lenghtening, make it so he wins. Are you on a plain leather buckle collar? Make sure the collar is snug up behind his ears, like the prong, and don't give him too much lead to allow him to be wrong. Corrections should "never" enter the picture, he's too young and not ready for them. Try doing off lead work with him in class (if you can). Run away, step sideways, completely mix it up and make sure it's fun for him. Most classes focus on one thing at a time, that's boring, make sure he gets plenty of play breaks and just fun time as well, it should be about 30% working and 70% play! Don't ask for turns or changes of direction until he is solid on big circles and straight lines. Do you all play "find heel" in class? What type of games have you incorporated into heeling?

 

Good luck, glad to hear he's at class!

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If your trainer dosent like treats and is all for correction then they are at least 20 years behind the science! I would ditch them

We dont have control unleshed classes here but I have the book and have found it great - I would say totaly go along to one of them!

http://benmcfuzzylugs.blogspot.com/2009/11...sure-about.html here is a post I did about the difference between correction and treats with a couple of videos - I know which dog I would rather be!!

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I would agree with Journey on all points except that he is to young to take a correction. In terms of heel-work is a dog understands what a correction is it doesn't have to be negative. It should give him a clearer idea of whats expected of him.

 

The seminar I just attended a short while ago run by the woman who won the National Obedience Invitational plays LOTs of heel games with young dogs, finding heel, playing, tugging. She doesn't use treats as it's just something that needs to be phased out and in a way your are "bribing" the dog to work for you. Instead she emphasizes making YOUSELF the motivation, Get down and play with your dog! Make things fun!!! then work on short heeling sessions!! She also introduces small collar pops early, so the dogs understands what a correction means, and that it is ok to make mistakes!!! You are helping your dog learn whats right and what you expect of him!

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I have a radical suggestion, but it works big-time.

 

Distractions are a reality. They will always be part of life and your dog will always find them interesting. You can use those distractions to create focus.

 

I do this outside. When I do this, there are often cows on the other side of the road, cars going down the street, and all kinds of other distractions.

 

I take the most enticing food that I can for the individual dog. The dog is on leash for safety - flat buckle collar only.

 

I take the dog into the road, and release the dog to check things out. The dog can look at the cows (obviously not interact with them!), sniff, pee, whatever as long as it's safe. After the dog has had a chance to do that, I cue a heel and I use the food to help the dog get into heel position. At first we heel just a step or two, I feed, and release the dog to sniff, etc. Gradually I build the duration of heeling. I do this on both sides.

 

As I build duration, I start with a lot of treats. I feed constantly, if need be. I gradually fade that to pez dispenser feeding and then to rewards from the pocket. Since this is building a high level of focus and concentration, the decrease in food rewards must take place slowly. I build from two or three steps of heeling before release to five or six to seven or eight, gradually up to 15 - 20 steps.

 

I did this last November for about two weeks and my dog's heeling skills and ability to disengage from distractions skyrocketed. It also builds a real love for heeling because there is a transfer of value (that's the purpose of the releases to sniff, be "at ease", etc.)

 

This is an adaptation of a "training walk" technique that is recommended by a freestyle instructor that I know. It is also very similar to CU's Give Me a Break.

 

It's very different from the typical, but it works in an amazing way.

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So: should I chalk this up to adolescence - hope he'll come back to me soon?

 

That could be part of it. I know that once my dog's brains kicked back in after adolescence, things like this got a lot easier! Of course, I did a lot of work with them during that time and I'm sure that had a lot to do with it as well.

 

Find a less distracting environment for obedience classes?

 

If you can find one, I'd definitely recommend that. I'd also find a trainer who supports reinforcement based training.

 

Sign him up for a local "Control Unleashed" class being offered at the end of this month?

 

If possible, I recommend this strongly! This would give you a plethora of new tools to deal with distractions, etc.

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Well, you've all unerringly put your fingers on the heart of the problem. This class just isn't structured to be fun for anyone, human or canine.

 

Duncan's had four different instructors so far. The first was great - very positive, great at explaining things, really helped us see things from a dog's perspective. But he only taught intro courses. The second was very good (though not quite as warm and fuzzy a personality), and still emphasized positive approaches, but sometimes made us feel a bit foolish. We did have fun discussing "all things dog", and shared a love of the same authors (and a hatred of AKC). She taught at all levels. I will say that she was excellent at combining play with exercises - always telling us to "take a brain break" and play with the dogs, throw them a ball or a frisbee or play with a tug toy - whatever they enjoyed. Duncan always had a blast. She was big on "make him succeed", and helping him get to that point. But there was only one other pup in the intermediate class, and I felt he needed a few more dogs around to provide for more distractions. She also couldn't set up any CGC testing.

 

The third trainer/class was someone who everyone locally raved about. We didn't enjoy her as much. She was a mixture of "corrections" and positive approaches. There was only one way to do things, and that was her way. The class really was not much fun. A lot of each hour was spent sitting down and giving the dogs bones to chew on while she lectured us. She made a lot of her pupils (of the human variety) feel bad enough (if their dogs were barking or whining, for example) that they quit. (That's what happened to my neighbor after her pup was singled out as "out of control!" for barking).

 

The current class has a trainer who is nice and who, I think, tries hard, but I don't enjoy the "no treats" philosophy, nor his somewhat outmoded approach. I went here because they do offer some rally obedience, and I thought it might be fun to see whether this was something Duncan would enjoy. (It's also a lot less expensive - a somewhat important consideration). They offer the CGC test (not like he's going to pass it, though, with his heeling where it is). But all we do, all class long, is march around in a circle for an hour heeling, with "finish left" and "left U-turn" and "circle right" and "down your dogs!". I feel like I'm a member of a drill team, or that I've been transplanted into some sort of alien culture. And that the name of the game is to train your dog to be a robot. I think a lot of owners are into AKC conformation or obedience. Play with the dogs? Not here! The most we're encouraged to do is give them praise once or twice each lesson. If this is what we need to do to compete locally in obedience, I think I'll look for something else to engage in.

 

I'm leaning toward either going back to the second instructor (and hoping for slightly larger classes), or toward signing up for the "Control Unleashed" class. Either one has got to be better than what we're doing now. The CU course is at a local center where they offer agility at a variety of levels. If Duncan's hips continue to improve, maybe we could eventually think about enrolling him in one of those classes, just sitting out any jumping. And I'd hope in both cases that the instructor would try to size up what Duncan needs and offer suggestions.

 

You've all helped me face what I think I've been avoiding. I hate quitting - but this class is really not cutting it for us, and I need to find one that suits our styles better.

 

OK, time to brave the snow drifts so that we can (walk - no driving in this stuff!) to the neighbor's cocktail party!

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Root Beer - just saw your suggestions. This sounds like exactly the approach we need - so different from the present class! (All it's missing is the black studded leather and whips).

 

I'm sold. I'm giving CU a try! It starts at the end of this month. Until then, I'll look for some medium distractions closer to home.

 

Gotta run change or DH will be irritated at me for making him late.

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My rescue BC knew how to heel when we adopted her but she insisted on pulling and controlling the walk. We went to beginners' obedience class and I learned a lot!!.

 

1. bought a Martingale collar.

 

2. heel for 3 steps while talking to Sierra (keeping her interested in me). If she kept the heel position for 3 short steps, she gets a kibble (or small treat), increasing the length of "heel position". Now, 6 months later, we can go to/from the park in the heel position (1/3 mile).

 

3. I still talk to her and she gets sporadic treats to keep her interested in me and not the environment.

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I would agree with Journey on all points except that he is to young to take a correction. In terms of heel-work is a dog understands what a correction is it doesn't have to be negative. It should give him a clearer idea of whats expected of him.

 

Agreed. It's kinda hard to know where people and dogs are, training wise, via the net...I teach the collar pop to my pups from the start. The collar and me grabbing it are "not" to be construed as a negative, they learn, pop to a cookie, and I will reinforce it throughout their lives as need be. The pop, while it can be a negative depending upon how you teach it, is a positive to mine and simply means "try harder"! Thanks for pointing out the correction/age issue.

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Yes Journey :rolleyes: I start my youngings out this way to.

 

I think this also applies well to working stock with my dogs. I know this has been discussed alot in the stockdog forums but to often young dogs who don't know what a correction means immedietly act sulky when they encounter it for the first time when they are mature. You often then have a young dog who can not work to there potential because they can't handle the pressures of training. A correction isn't meant to be a horrible negative thing it's a communication tool meaning, you are not doing whats right or expected of you, try something else.

 

I would also like to add for the record that training for formal obedience has really changed. Unfortunetly there are still trainers out there who are more of the jerk the dogs brains out kinda trainers but you WILL notice the difference in those trainers dogs in competition versus dogs using new techniques!!!! Especially with bc's!! they have such a high play/toy drive and work ethic, you usally need to use any kind of correction very little once they understand what is expected!!! Competitive obedience these days is all about drive, focus and fun!!! The partnership a good team has when you watch them is amazing. They move truly as one when heeling, it's a sight to see.

 

I personally enjoy this amazing partnership betwenn my dog and I when working in competitive obedience! And my bc LOVES it!!! Everything is FUN!!! We do recalls with mixtures of throwing a toy in-between my legs! Play front games with food in my mouth or a fun little toy under my chin. Play find heel games witha toy tucked under my arm where he can't see it once in awhile!!! Heel in large circles driving and having fun!! Breaking and tugging!!! My bc just LOVES it!!! He gets so excited when he sees the ring!! Sure he gets a tug on his collar when he is out of position or when he looks off, which is rare, but he sure gets to break and tug after that!!! He knows what the correction means and fixes himself immedietly.This is what obedience is supposed to be about!!!

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Post everything about the CU class :rolleyes: I would really love to go to one but there is nothing round here. Thinking of running one myself!!

 

Sorry I just dont understand how someone can train positivly and use a collar pop, if my dog is not focused on me it is because

1. He dosent understand what I want

2. I havent taken into account the distractions

3. I am asking too much

4. He is not motivated enough

 

I cant see how yanking on the lead can be considered a good thing

 

I love you saying how fun it can be, and the partnership aspect is fantastic, but just as my dog dosent correct me every time I get it wrong I dont think I should correct him. I teach my dogs to refocus on me when the lead becomes tight, not a pop or a pull but if they get to the end of the lead they choose to check back in with me. Also you can train a distraction noise - like a kissy noise for your dog to look at you

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I have a radical suggestion, but it works big-time.

 

Distractions are a reality. They will always be part of life and your dog will always find them interesting. You can use those distractions to create focus.

 

I do this outside. When I do this, there are often cows on the other side of the road, cars going down the street, and all kinds of other distractions.

 

I take the most enticing food that I can for the individual dog. The dog is on leash for safety - flat buckle collar only.

 

I take the dog into the road, and release the dog to check things out. The dog can look at the cows (obviously not interact with them!), sniff, pee, whatever as long as it's safe. After the dog has had a chance to do that, I cue a heel and I use the food to help the dog get into heel position. At first we heel just a step or two, I feed, and release the dog to sniff, etc. Gradually I build the duration of heeling. I do this on both sides.

 

As I build duration, I start with a lot of treats. I feed constantly, if need be. I gradually fade that to pez dispenser feeding and then to rewards from the pocket. Since this is building a high level of focus and concentration, the decrease in food rewards must take place slowly. I build from two or three steps of heeling before release to five or six to seven or eight, gradually up to 15 - 20 steps.

 

I did this last November for about two weeks and my dog's heeling skills and ability to disengage from distractions skyrocketed. It also builds a real love for heeling because there is a transfer of value (that's the purpose of the releases to sniff, be "at ease", etc.)

 

This is an adaptation of a "training walk" technique that is recommended by a freestyle instructor that I know. It is also very similar to CU's Give Me a Break.

 

It's very different from the typical, but it works in an amazing way.

 

I wish that you would write a dog training book == your methods make so much more sense that most of what I've read! I'm going to try this with Robin and chickens....that's his big thing. Chickens.

 

Liz

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I find that the most succesful trainers who obtain a high level of work don't limit themselves to one type of training. They usually use a basket full of different methods, depending on the dog, the problems they encounter and the level of work they want to obtain. I use positive motivational techniques most of the time but there are situations where you need to communicate to the dog that what they are doing is not correct. Taught CORRECTLY, a collar pop can be an effective tool. My dogs understand perfectly well what it means, they don't take offense and we are able to obtain a level of work where someone could bounce a tennis ball in front of there nose, or a dog could be sniffing there ear and they wouldn't take there eyes off me. They know that this is what I expect.

 

The problem I have with positive-only techniques is because I don't believe it communicates effectively with the dog. There are situations where is very effective and useful. But it's not practical in all situations. There must be a point where the dog is meant to understand that certain things are not a choice, and are expected. The dog must learn there are consequences for certain choices, of course I am talking more about basic manners or obedience and not training for a performance event here mostly.

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I wish that you would write a dog training book == your methods make so much more sense that most of what I've read! I'm going to try this with Robin and chickens....that's his big thing. Chickens.

 

Liz

 

Honestly, I've been thinking about it. Something along the lines of using reinforcement to train practical things. There are a lot of training books out there, but it seems like most of them either never get beyond the mechanics of training simple obedience behaviors, or they focus more on tricks or a specific sport, or they are a lot more advanced. I've never seen any book that really delves into how to use broad uses of reinforcement to train basic focus, heeling, curtail counter surfing, help the dog become a more polite greeter, etc. Something really easy to follow that someone brand new to training could understand, but would also have points of interest for those who have been at it a while and are looking for new ideas. It would be really cool to do that.

 

The big problem is that the methods themselves aren't mine. I've put my own spin on some of them, yes, but they are still modifications of techniques that other people have invested a lot of themselves into developing. And I don't even know who came up with a lot of them, so it wouldn't be easy to give credit.

 

Still, I've wanted to write a book my entire life. So, maybe someday - something dog related. Not written as an "expert" kind of thing, but more of a reflection on the things I've learned myself. I think there are people who would enjoy that sort of thing.

 

Shoot, if I spent half the time working on something that I currently spend gabbing on forums and facebook, I just might have a book on my hands!

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I know this might sound sooo simple but try using something to make the excercise of heeling soooo much fun he would be crazy to pass up the opportunity to do a heel. I had to do this with my oldest, her agility training lessons were deteriorating fast, she was getting distracted, displaying displacement behaviours and overly not motivated. And this was a dog that would train for hours just for the heck of it.

 

So we went back to basics and i used steak, chicken, dog roll anything that stank basically to train with at home and i built up the value of her tug toy. We just went back to training over the Christmas break and what a maniac! She only stopped to sniff once because there was a treat, she was completely focused and toy mad (this is a dog i couldn't get to even glance at a tug toy 4 months ago). I do this with obstacles she is scared of (see saw) or not fast enough on, i take it back a step and pull out the big guns (tennis ball and raw beef chunks), voila! her seesaw is amazing and if she sees one she will fly over it before she completes any other obstacle. Maybe the value just needs to be put back into heeling. My girl would train hard at home but not at training much like Duncan heeling at home but not at training. Build up the value for the exercise and he would be crazy to pass up the opportunity to to perform. :rolleyes:

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I cant see how yanking on the lead can be considered a good thing

 

That is not at all what the collar pop is about. It's an assumptions and misconceptions. The CP starts out with your finger through the collar, a cookie about 2 inches from their nose, and pressure on the collar pushing them "towards" the cookies. So, yes, I regularly abuse and yank my dogs around. Ugh...PP is fine for many but in critical cases it doesn't work. The dog has to learn to deal with negatives, deal with pressure and deal with life, it' ain't all a bowl of cherries. Oh, and the lead, that's my guys favorite tug toy, it's such an abusive object.

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Now I am more confused than ever, one of you talks about collar pop as positive punishment and the other is talking about gentle pressure meaning the dog turns in the way the lead is, two totaly different things as far as I can see

 

I dont stick to one type of training at all, all dogs are different. But they all work on the same principles of reward and punishement. I tend to use positive reward and negative punishment. But of course life isnt as simple as that. But as Ian Dunbar says (sort of) punishment dosent have to be nastyor painful to work - so why should it be

But for something like heeling why punish at all?? as lots of other people are saying here, if you make when they choose to heel nicely so rewarding and build up the distractions sensibly then the dogs will love it so much

If the dog isnt focused then it is totaly your fault, either you havent build the distractions up properly, the dog dosent understand the exercise enough, you havent proofed for the location, or you are not motovating enough. If thats the case then why punish the dog for something thats your fault

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Ugh...PP is fine for many but in critical cases it doesn't work. The dog has to learn to deal with negatives, deal with pressure and deal with life, it' ain't all a bowl of cherries.

 

So, are you saying that good heeling, attentive heeling, heeling that holds up in the face of distraction, etc. cannot be taught without collar pops?

 

I'm asking, not assuming! :rolleyes: So, if that's not what you meant, please do clarify!

 

I happen to know that's not true, however.

 

Just as clickers aren't everyone's cup of tea, neither are collar pops. I don't use them to train anything and I train effectively. I'm not saying they are abusive (although they can be, but so can most things) or inherently evil, or anything like that. I'm just saying that they are not for everyone and a dog can learn to heel very well in the face of distraction without them if the handler chooses a different method of training.

 

And my dogs learn to deal with negatives, learn to deal with pressure, learn to deal with life, and learn to deal with things that aren't cherries. Life takes care of that job quite nicely. Collar pops are not necessary for those lessons.

 

This idea that use of correction in training is what prepares a dog to deal with the difficulties of life is an assumption and misconception.

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Honestly, I've been thinking about it. Something along the lines of using reinforcement to train practical things. There are a lot of training books out there, but it seems like most of them either never get beyond the mechanics of training simple obedience behaviors, or they focus more on tricks or a specific sport, or they are a lot more advanced. I've never seen any book that really delves into how to use broad uses of reinforcement to train basic focus, heeling, curtail counter surfing, help the dog become a more polite greeter, etc. Something really easy to follow that someone brand new to training could understand, but would also have points of interest for those who have been at it a while and are looking for new ideas. It would be really cool to do that.

 

The big problem is that the methods themselves aren't mine. I've put my own spin on some of them, yes, but they are still modifications of techniques that other people have invested a lot of themselves into developing. And I don't even know who came up with a lot of them, so it wouldn't be easy to give credit.

 

Still, I've wanted to write a book my entire life. So, maybe someday - something dog related. Not written as an "expert" kind of thing, but more of a reflection on the things I've learned myself. I think there are people who would enjoy that sort of thing.

 

Shoot, if I spent half the time working on something that I currently spend gabbing on forums and facebook, I just might have a book on my hands!

 

If you're worried about breaking copyright, etc....you've modified the idea enough that it's become yours...you could just give due homage to those who inspired your...ie....smith says this works, but I've found if you do or add or change this part of it, it works much better.

 

The great thing is that you can self publish now very easily.....even publish on demand, or electronic book purchases...no more fighting in line to get an editor.

 

Get going, girl :rolleyes:.

 

Liz

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So, are you saying that good heeling, attentive heeling, heeling that holds up in the face of distraction, etc. cannot be taught without collar pops?

 

Yes. However, I know that the type of heeling you and I are talking about is not the same. I am talking about 40 point heeling, every time in the ring, no excuses, excuses are simply a lack of training and proofing.

 

Now I am more confused than ever, one of you talks about collar pop as positive punishment and the other is talking about gentle pressure meaning the dog turns in the way the lead is, two totaly different things as far as I can see

 

Huh? Of course you can't start this on lead, you start it with pups as I said previously. By the time they get to leash work they know how to "beat the pop" and try harder. Shoot by the 3rd round of the game they are beating the pop and winning (succeeding) by getting the cookie faster.

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