Ankle nipper

[jdarling]

To me - and to some other people - there are things that matter more than getting things done in three seconds.

 

I'm sorry. I don't have time to negotiate when they are hanging off my stock. So if they can't handle a correction for hanging off my pants, they won't be making it out to my pasture.

[OurBoys]

So if they can't handle a correction for hanging off my pants, they won't be making it out to my pasture.

I am totally green on learning how to train a dog to herd so I apologize in advance if this question sounds dumb but is a puppy playing tug-o-war on pant legs the same as gripping? I'm being totally earnest because I really am trying to learn as much about herding as possible and since even non-herding breeds do the same thing as puppies, this statement confuses me because around the house, Jake comes across as sensitive but in the round pen, he was a totally different dog who took Julie's corrections extremely well. (In fact, he struck me as totally respecting her for doing so.)

[jdarling]

No, hanging off your pant legs is nothing more than a bad habit that, over time, has been allowed to develop. It has nothing to do with working livestock. They are not "herding" you. My point was that when this puppy becomes a dog, and it's working my stock, and it decides to hang off my sheep, I am not going to stand there an negotiate with it. In my opinion, a swift, clear, properly time correction serves the dog much better than waiting for the correct response and rewarding that, redirecting its attention, shaping the correct behavior, or nagging at the dog.

[Root Beer]

I'm sorry. I don't have time to negotiate when they are hanging off my stock. So if they can't handle a correction for hanging off my pants, they won't be making it out to my pasture.

 

And I'm sorry. I don't have time to nag at my dog - ever. When I work with a young or new dog, I look at the big picture and I'm setting the groundwork for the training that I will do with my dog for the rest of his or her life. Since that training requires that the dog learn early to learn in a way that does not require me "correcting" the dog or telling him or her what not to do, it makes very good sense to start the dog off that way to begin with.

 

For me, all the convincing I need is in the results. Again, I don't see why anyone should have a problem with this. Usually it is correction based trainers who are insisting that there is no one way to train dogs and that the training has to suit the dog. Why do some of those same trainers so vehemently object to the fact that some of us choose to train our dogs using a completely different approach, and that we get the results that we want quickly and effectively? That makes zero sense to me.

[JBlaylock]

Fist of all root beer, nobody is trying to force their training method on you, I was simply making a statement to avoid the inevitable "expert" contradiction. I'd love to meet your "pack" of dogs that you have control over "with a look" as you so convincingly asserted in a previous thread, under the protective veil of an internet forum. Fact is, Cesar's method has been viewed by millions, millions have seen how controlled his pack of 20+ dogs is no matter who comes in to greet them. I've known hundreds of trainers and other people like you profess to have such an obedient pack of dogs that they keep control of with only a look and non-physical discipline, and when I meet their pack, I see how disobedient they are as they jump all over me for attention, while the "expert" owner frantically rushes from dog to dog trying to gain control...trying, but failing miserably due to a lack of dominance.

[jdarling]

Since that training requires that the dog learn early to learn in a way that does not require me "correcting" the dog or telling him or her what not to do ...

 

And there's not a livestock owner who will wait for your dog to figure out what not to do all on its own while it's hanging off their livestock.

 

But, I've seen you vehemently defend your method of training before, and I'm not going to get sucked into it here. I just hope the OP chooses a more efficient method.

[PSmitty]

Niccru,

Does your pup understand a correction word, like "Ahht!" or "No!" or "Hey!"? If so, you can use that effectively without having to resort to physical punishment or distraction. If not, you can teach a correction word now, but it will involve some physical intercession. If I have a puppy dragging at my ankles/pants,** my first reaction would be a harsh Ahht!. If that didn't stop the little nipper in it's tracks, then I'd probably go to a brief scruff shake or a thump/flick on the nose with a finger next (note that both the scruff shake and the nose thump are used more for their startle factor than as a punishment per se). Usually I don't have to go that far, though, because the pup has understood from day 1 that Ahht! means stop whatever the hell you're doing and find something else to do and so would interpret it correctly in this situation to mean let go of the pants and find something else to do. **In truth, I would probably be watching the pup and time my correction--ahht!--as soon as I noticed the puppy *think* about going for my pants instead of waiting until it had already latched on.

 

This is how I handled it with Jack. Julie makes several good points here. First of all that the dog understands a "hey, knock that off" word. I use "Ahhht!". And then the timing of it is important, to anticipate puppy going for the ankle and stopping it before it happens, if you can. With Jack, I'd stop in my tracks and give him an "Ahht!". The trick here is to be consistent, and it didn't take long (maybe more than three seconds, but way under a year and a day).

[juliepoudrier]

Well and the nice thing about a correction word is that it translates very nicely to working with stock, should you ever choose to go that route.

 

J.

[PSmitty]

Well and the nice thing about a correction word is that it translates very nicely to working with stock, should you ever choose to go that route.

 

J.

 

Yeah, and now if I could only get my timing out in the field as good as it was with correcting a nippy puppy! I'm afraid that might be a lost cause.

[stockdogranch]

Kristine, I have been around here long enough to understand your methods and to believe that they do work for you for what you train your dogs to do, and for your expectations for them. And that's fine. I have no doubt that your dogs are very well behaved and that you have a great rapport with them, mutual respect, and so on. And I don't think anyone here is really trying to convince you to try other methods, as that would be futile.

 

However, there are other methods out there, and for some of us, these methods are not "cruel" as your posts on occasion seem to imply (intentionally or not). They are, rather, just a bit more expedient, as Jodi says, and when dealing with dogs who will be working stock, oftentimes, expedience is a great benefit. As Jodi says, if I am working stock, I simply do not have the time to wait for the dog to offer the appropriate behavior; by the time I do that, I will have calves crashing through my fence or some other disaster. So while my dog is learning a bad behavior on stock (since I'm not "correcting" it in any way), my stock are also learning a bad behavior in response to being handled inappropriately by a dog. One of the main issues needed in a pup when we take it to stock is to understand a bit of a verbal correction (Julie's "acchhtt") so that when we need to use that in the stock training setting, the pup understands to stop doing that particular behavior, but that the sky is not falling, and that the pup is not in trouble, it just needs to stop that particular thing. So using the "acchhtt" to a young pup in teaching general manners saves everyone, including the pup, a lot of grief when it is taken to stock. Those of us who will use a verbal correction, or even a scruff shake, generally only use as much as is necessary for each particular dog. If just the verbal works, then that's all that's needed. And, the majority of folks who use such methods also have a great rapport with their dogs and mutual respect and so on.

 

So when a new person comes on here asking how to stop some annoying bad habitual behavior in a young pup, we all throw our various preferred methods out there for him or her to consider. I would think such a person could get easily confused when reading the various responses. Imagine their confusion or disgust when they read all the bickering and nastiness thrown back and forth. "Positive only" wastes way too much time, but "corrections" are cruel to the poor little pup.

 

I think there are some of us here who are getting a little tired of being bashed for our methods, and for the "positive only" people seemingly having a "holier than thou" attitude. We can all agree to disagree; as stated earlier, I am sure your methods work for you. But for the sake of new people who really have no idea how to stop annoying behaviors, can we all voice our opinions and explain our methods, and let each "new" individual try those methods that for whatever reason appeal to that person, and that they think will work best his/her situation?

 

A

 

ETA: I see that while I was writing this, several have posted similar thoughts.

[Jumpin Boots]

Wow, I just used the brief scruff shake method and it worked.

 

Congrats, happy to hear that you have nipped (ha, pun) this issue. Good luck with the pup...we'd love to see pictures and don't hesitate with any questions, as you can see, you will get tons of opinions

[JBlaylock]

- snip -

I think there are some of us here who are getting a little tired of being bashed for our methods, and for the "positive only" people seemingly having a "holier than thou" attitude. We can all agree to disagree; as stated earlier, I am sure your methods work for you. But for the sake of new people who really have no idea how to stop annoying behaviors, can we all voice our opinions and explain our methods, and let each "new" individual try those methods that for whatever reason appeal to that person, and that they think will work best his/her situation?

 

Great point, excellent wording. You say what I'm thinking, but you say it better, when I say it it comes out wrong or different than I planned... I'll just keep quiet from now on and let you do the talking.

[Ooky]

Sorry for the tangent niccru! As you can see you will get lots of advice here - and discussion if you like it!

 

I don't know if I'm being lumped with the "holier than thou positive only" people, but my dog gets and knows corrections. We have our first sheep lesson TOMORROW (whoo hoo!! Can you tell I'm a little excited? ). I am not worried one whit that he won't take a correction, quit whatever he's doing, and try something else. Not sure if what else he tries will be improved herding or eating sheep poop in the corner, but that won't be because I never taught him correction words (which I did - "uh-uh", "no", "HEY", and "psst" in addition to the command "leave it" which can come out a little correctiony at times). I have done scruff shakes as well for other unwanted behaviors - but it just never occurred to me that particular behavior needed it. I don't guess we personally did - we solved the problem quickly anyway.

 

Imagine their confusion or disgust when they read all the bickering and nastiness thrown back and forth... "corrections" are cruel to the poor little pup.

 

I don't in any way think corrections are cruel, and I hope it didn't come off that way in my previous post which I tried very hard to word to be nastiness-free. However, what I was actually referring to was this statement:

 

One perfectly timed very unpleasant experience for puppy and it will remember.

 

I'm not really sure what that's describing, but it's not a correction word. I could see some acts fitting this description being very cruel, although I highly doubt Jodi is! It seems the type of thing best described in adequate detail that a new person doesn't have to guess what exactly is meant. Again, I think there's a great difference between "uh-uh" and physical corrections, in which category I lump several very non-cruel acts that I still just don't like doing if I can find another way.

 

I am in no way close to anyone's level of expertise here - but I very clearly remember being a brand new puppy owner and feeling terrified I was being too cruel, OR too lenient, OR etc etc. It seems to me laying out all the options is a very good thing! Niccru, again I say good luck, welcome here, and have fun with your puppy!

[OurBoys]

No, hanging off your pant legs is nothing more than a bad habit that, over time, has been allowed to develop. It has nothing to do with working livestock. They are not "herding" you.

I agree. That's why I was confused when you stated "I don't have time to negotiate when they are hanging off my stock. So if they can't handle a correction for hanging off my pants, they won't be making it out to my pasture". Thank you for explaining. I understand what you're saying now.

 

I'm glad to hear a number of other people make the "Ahht" sound! I grew up around dogs; DH didn't. Soon after we adopted JJ, he asked me "Why do you make that funny noise???" When I asked him what he was talking about, he said "Ahht". All I could tell him was it was a habit. He's from Washington state so I started thinking maybe that was a southern thing.

 

Niccru, congrats on your progress! That method would probably work on our Jake. Josie takes the "Ahht" sound really well. JJ is our stubborn one. When playing frisbee, DH always gets upset with him because JJ 'makes' him play tug-o-war. DH has thumped him on the nose, told him "No!", etc. JJ never listens to him. JJ won't do that to me (for the most part). I taught JJ I won't play like that and if he tries, game over-time to go in the house. It took 2-3 times ending the game and coming inside but he got it! Every once is a while JJ will try testing me but all I have to say is "Do you want to go in the house??" and he'll let go of it. What can I say? I love these guys and their individual personalities!

[Jumpin Boots]

I'm glad to hear a number of other people make the "Ahht" sound! I grew up around dogs; DH didn't. Soon after we adopted JJ, he asked me "Why do you make that funny noise???" When I asked him what he was talking about, he said "Ahht". All I could tell him was it was a habit. He's from Washington state so I started thinking maybe that was a southern thing.

 

"Ahht" isn't a southern thing, I live in WA state and that term is constantly coming out of my mouth, along with, Augggh, Errrrr, Sptttt, Ouhhhh, uh-oh, I'm sure there's other grunts too, they all have different pitches and mean different things and a few only get used with certain dogs. I can just imagine what people in public would think if I walked around grunting at the pooches all the time, there goes the cavewoman.

[OurBoys]

I can just imagine what people in public would think if I walked around grunting at the pooches all the time, there goes the cavewoman.

[niccru]

You all are so insightful. Thank you for all the great advice. Some I will take, and some I will leave for other newbies.

 

I'm a member of another forum (dogforum), and it seems that there is only one method of training allowed to be spoken of there (positive reinforcement and distraction techniques). Since I've had Abby, I've been using these methods, and while some of her bad habits seem to be improving, other are not. More specifically, this issue I was (yes!) having with my ankles and her teeth was not improving. Decided to look for guidance here, and found my solution immediately.

 

Abby has reached for my pants twice again since yesterday's training, but hasn't actually latched on. An absolute miracle sent from BC Boards!

 

 

Nicole

[niccru]

Here's the pooper face. More pics in photo gallery forum.

[jdarling]

I could see some acts fitting this description being very cruel, although I highly doubt Jodi is! It seems the type of thing best described in adequate detail that a new person doesn't have to guess what exactly is meant.

 

I think what's cruel is allowing pups to develop bad habits because people are all too often afraid to "punish" their poor puppies, and now the poor puppy grows into an adult dog with bad habits and ends up in the shelter and eventually euthanized because it has never been taught boundaries. That's cruel.

 

Having a pup bite your ankles hurts. And I know people aren't going to like it when I say this, but if the pup understands, "Hmmm ... when I bite her ankle ... some part of me hurts afterwards (either from a tongue lashing ... or from flying across the floor and crashing into something because she didn't stop walking when I nipped her and I went flying ... or because she swatted/scruffed me one)" ... they will be much less inclined to do it again.

 

There you have it. I'm a big damn meanie.

[Freeman 101]

"Ahht" isn't a southern thing, I live in WA state and that term is constantly coming out of my mouth, ............

----------------------

 

Oh my gosh! This is too funny! I'm also a member of the "AHHT!" club, but here is a little confession............

I used it on my kids first before I had dogs!

 

p.s. I'm from Missouri

[Freeman 101]

Anyone remember Gary Wilke's pillow throw method? Here's a link: http://www.clickandtreat.com/ff11.htm He got slammed a lot for this, for throwing a pillow for Pete's sake!

 

I like Gary Wilke a lot and feel he has a very balanced approach to "positive" dog training.

[AdmiralGonsiorowski]

niccru, the way I broke Ski from being excessively nippy when he was smaller, was to pick him up and dump him into the designated dog-chair. It worked wonders on him, and was therapeutic for me, lol. No pain inflicted on the puppy, but it is very satisfying to take the sharp annoying teeth and toss them somewhere that is far away from your ankles. He would jump out, then run right back over to me to nip again, and get dumped again. After a handful of time, he stopped. Completely. Forever. He hasn't nipped my ankles since, outside or in.

 

Now that he's too big to conveniently toss, I've taught him a 'chair' command using clicker training, and he will happily break off any annoying behavior to run and jump into it.

 

I've used correction and punishment on dogs plenty of times, and it works as well as anything else on the right dogs. On Ski, it made him untrusting, frustrated, and unwilling to work with me. Kristine's advice on positive training made a huge difference in teaching my dog to respect me and respond promptly and consistently to commands.

[BNM1980]

I posted here with the very same problem and someone (Lenajo, I think) gave me advise which solved the problem in a single afternoon.

 

That advice was to kind of walk briskly into the dogs' space, while upbraiding loudly, and stepping on toes if you have to.

 

I didn't have to step on his toes, but stepping into his space while upbraiding him loudly apparently gave him something of a fright. "No!" and "Bad dog!" did nothing but excite him, but body language seemed to get the message across, and that was the very last time he ever went for my ankles.

 

Problem solved.

[SoloRiver]

I think Jett tried this maybe twice, and a sharp "Hey!" stopped her.

 

Honestly, Jett was the world's easiest puppy.

[Jedismom]

And you make your training suggestions and I'll make mine.

 

Hi Kristine,

 

I have great respect for your methods so I looked through this thread to find your training suggestion on this little ankle nipper. I didn't find one. Just you defending your right to make one. Sooo...what would you do in this situation?

 

Georgia