mum24dog Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 I never thought you could actually breed bc for colors?! One of my dogs come from a red/white and a blu merle and he is black/white! My sister pup comes from a blue merle tri and I believe a red/white that litter has all the colors in it(red merle, blu merle, black tri, red/tri, and a couple of black/white!!!) makes me wonder... A couple of links for you:- http://www.bryningbordercollies.com/Border-Collie-Colours http://www.mastamariner.com/border_collie_colours_page.html As for breeding for working ability - the breeder admits that her dogs don't do particularly well in trials, blaming it on herself. It may be true, of course, but it isn't a good advertisement. There is one line I would have gone for if I were not 100% into rescue dogs - and that line is ended as all the pups I know of have been neutered, despite the fact that they are spectacular agility dogs. (Only cost £50 - £70 and one of them was even free.) What line? Well, they don't have a name, they just come from a series of accidental matings between the dog and bitch on a Scottish farm (no longer active). The dog has died and the bitch must be about 13 now. They have consistently produced sound pups with the right build and attitude (pretty B/W dogs too - from white bitch and sable dog, I'm told), at least 3 of which are on their way to becoming Champions. (I say sound, but there is a little fixable OCD in the dogs, but that's true of one of the top agility lines here too. One of the dogs near to making Champion was operated on as a pup. No epilepsy that I know of, unlike another of the best known lines.) Of course they couldn't compete in the FCI Championships as they don't have papers - not that their owners care. I have no idea whether the pups could have been registered with the ISDS. The parents didn't work any longer, the owners weren't breeding on purpose or to make a profit, so it wouldn't have been worth the money. I give this example as there must be many farms around, both here and over there, producing similar quality dogs, whether by accident or design. Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 I wish that when people would ask about breeders, they would leave names out of it, and if someone wants to know exactly WHO it is, it is done privately. I really hate the gossip that goes on. Next thing we will have Astra breeders coming on to defend their name, and it will get ugly. I know nothing of these breeders, and won't comment on them. Reading a web page and making an assessment is something, imo, that should be a private thing, and not a group rock throwing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 I wish that when people would ask about breeders, they would leave names out of it, and if someone wants to know exactly WHO it is, it is done privately. I really hate the gossip that goes on. Next thing we will have Astra breeders coming on to defend their name, and it will get ugly. I know nothing of these breeders, and won't comment on them. Reading a web page and making an assessment is something, imo, that should be a private thing, and not a group rock throwing. I agree in principle but can't see that anyone has overstepped the mark here and it would have impossible for the OP to ask the question without naming the kennel. A couple of us over here have expressed an opinion on agility performance based on what we have seen. Posters have also commented on the weight given to colour on the breeder's web site and the number of litters available and the implications have been explained. I think it all comes under the heading of fair comment rather than rock throwing. It may be that the breeder did start out concentrating on working stock. Ten years ago when I started in agility I can only think of one Astra dog competing (unusual looking but not pretty), although there may have been more. There certainly has been an explosion of Scottish handlers getting them in the last few years. I guess it's the old story of one or two do well and everyone has to have one. (Because of our involvement with the FCI "World" Championships, top handlers often now want dogs with papers.) I don't have any evidence, but suspect that a lucrative market is being tapped and sport handlers are often more concerned with appearance than those actually working dogs so it could well make financial sense to feed that market. I stress - not rock throwing. Just suggesting a reason why colour seems to be so prominent on the web site. Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 I disagree- naming names is just poor form. A better question would be "I am looking at importing a dog from a breeder overseas- are there any things I should be on the look out for?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 I disagree- naming names is just poor form. A better question would be "I am looking at importing a dog from a breeder overseas- are there any things I should be on the look out for?" But that wouldn't have answered the question of what the dogs are like for the purpose intended. Anyway - to digress - have I got this right? The OP does have a dilemma. She wants a dog from working lines. She has World Champ aspirations and that means a dog with papers. "Papers" in this sense means AKC papers which effectively rules out most working lines in the US. If she imports a dual ISDS/KC dog from the UK she gets round the problem. Whatever the problem, I really don't think importing a dog sight unseen (unless from someone you know well and trust implicitly to choose the right dog for you) is a wise thing to do. Personally I wouldn't want to have anything to do with an organisation that judges a dog on the basis of a piece of paper, but plenty of people don't feel as strongly as I do, even in the UK where it isn't so much of an issue (unless you want to make the FCI "World" Champ team) as all our agility organisations allow any dog to compete. Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caroline Reichard Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 Before making any decisions about importing a dog from ANY breeder, you should consider the cost of importing long and hard. It will in all likelihood double the price of your dog. You should also consider that if things are not as you wish, there is no way to return the pup to the breeder, so it is much more of a gamble than buying a pup that you can evaluate in person. I have a 2 year old dog that I bought as a pup from Janet, and I couldn't be happier with him. He is a sheep dog though. I don't know anything about and can't comment on questions concerning agility dogs. Best, Caroline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katelynn & Gang Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 If I was going to import a dog that I'd be using for work, I'd be importing myself a trained dog with some miles and a nice little reputation starting on the trial field. To import a puppy for agility seems useless and a BIG waste of money, as there are breeders here in the USA which breed about the same as Astra and some even have some Astra dogs if you really wanted a unproven puppy from those lines. They are still going to cost you a arm and a leg none the less because these breeders are usually registered AKC breeders which supply the demand of the agility and obedience crowds who "want" working "bred" dogs but need AKC registration. Katelynn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 But that wouldn't have answered the question of what the dogs are like for the purpose intended. Anyway - to digress - have I got this right? The OP does have a dilemma. She wants a dog from working lines. She has World Champ aspirations and that means a dog with papers. "Papers" in this sense means AKC papers which effectively rules out most working lines in the US. If she imports a dual ISDS/KC dog from the UK she gets round the problem. Not true, unfortunately. Any border collie can get AKC papers--if the dog is ABCA registered, the AKC will extend dual registration, and if the dog has no papers at all, the dog can be ILPed (though I think it's not called ILP anymore; basically you send a picture of the dog into the AKC HQ and they send you back a piece of paper allowing your dog to compete in any AKC event besides conformation). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katelynn & Gang Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 I believe mum meant that most respective working USA breeders wouldn't sell their breed out to the AKC for any reason, not for a sport and most diffidently not for money. Ask me to register one of mine with the AKC and I'll tell you "Over my dead bloody mangled body." Katelynn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 Katelynn, I think you are rare that way, though Unfortunately, I have not witnessed that phenomenon at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 I believe mum meant that most respective working USA breeders wouldn't sell their breed out to the AKC for any reason, not for a sport and most diffidently not for money. Ask me to register one of mine with the AKC and I'll tell you "Over my dead bloody mangled body." Katelynn That was the impression I was getting. Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trailrider Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 4 litters. 8 parents. These are 8 adults that are excellent herding dogs. How many more dogs? How do they find the time to train and work the herding bloodline dogs when they are taking care of so many puppies. Ot was there a good herding dog 4 generations back? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSnappy Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 I am looking for a border collie that can take me to USA world team! (All of my dogs once they get their MACH I am going to start herding with... and hopefully be able to compete with them at herding trial!) ha ha! That's not going to happen. RDM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 RDM, you crack me up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSnappy Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 Well seriously. I'm going to teach my dog how to drive a car, and then I'm going to put him in Nascar! And then once he's done, he's going to kick all your dogs' asses at the-sport-of-herding with only 14 hours training! Then he's going to bear semi-human children that will become a master race of bicycle poloists and we are all going to live on the moon. So there! Pleez. RDM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airbear Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 ...that will become a master race of bicycle poloists... doG help me, I googled it: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 And, why do you say that? Any dog can compete in sheep dog trials. There are no set criteria needed to compete- at least that I know of... Unless of course we are talking ack, that would require a pedigree? I don't know ha ha! That's not going to happen. RDM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSnappy Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 doG help me, I googled it: Good! I'm glad someone did!! Kelpiegirl, if the subtlety is lost on you .... well, then it is. RDM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanillalove Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 ha ha! That's not going to happen. RDM I was going to say pretty much the same thing, but you said it better. As to how you "didn't know" that they took colour into consideration is beyond me, as they have it all over their page. You did, however, ask how to find a quality breeder and the answer is going to trials. Go to trials and find dogs that you like by the way they work. Talk to people, get into the heart of the breed. You'll find connections and people who breed for the right reasons. You'll have to look hard, and it'll be some work, but since you're going to be a WC, you know all about hard work, don't you? Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllieMackie Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 Reading this thread, I see the silliness that I started a month or two ago. (vanillalove started the thread, but I hijacked it and caused a dramafest that really didn't need to happen had I done my research. Now I can post it to help prove a point, at least.) Learn from these people, SS Cressa, they know what they're talking about. You really don't need to import an agility-bred (yes, they are) dog from the UK. There's lots of good, proper, working-bred dogs on your own continent. Plus, there are very young, biddable, workable dogs inr rescues if you know where to look. People here will GLADLY help you out in findign someone local (or close to local) in your area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllieMackie Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 Oh and also, the colour issue... colour should generally not be mentioned. You should be able to tell simply by looking at the parentage, and even if you can't it doesn't matter what colour a BC is, so why mention it? No, they don't say "We breed our border collies for colouring." but they don't have to. The "worst" mention of colouring I've ever heard on a proper, reputable working breeder's site is: *Lists herding experience, titles, temperement and drive of parents* oh and black and white and tri pups are expected. Colour is an afterthought at best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katelynn & Gang Posted July 29, 2008 Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 Katelynn, I think you are rare that way, though. Ah ha! You just don't hang out with the right crowd then! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dogslater Posted July 30, 2008 Report Share Posted July 30, 2008 It also depends which World Team you plan on being part of. The "World Team" that goes to the European Open and to the IFCS Worlds accepts all dogs, including mixed breeds so no pedigree is needed. Arguably, these are more of a true world championship since they are open to all dogs. An ILP may not be enough to get on the AKC/FCI world team, at least it's not for the CKC team. CKC requires a three-gen pedigree and won't accept PENs. That aside, what happens if the working dog you import is a dud? What if he's only in the top 3% for the country and not good enough for the world team? If you have your heart set on a puppy, why not pick a dog closer to home where you have a better idea what you're dealing with, where you can meet the parents, evaluate the litter etc. There are thousands of dogs, working bred, sport bred, working/sport bred, who are great agility dogs but not good enough for the world team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dogslater Posted July 30, 2008 Report Share Posted July 30, 2008 doG help me, I googled it: lol - so did I. For those too poor to own horses but still like smacking each other with sticks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShoresDog Posted July 30, 2008 Report Share Posted July 30, 2008 lol - so did I. For those too poor to own horses but still like smacking each other with sticks! Gosh, I thought that was lacrosse! Anyhow, there are tons of wonderful dogs here, no need to import a candy-colored tangerine-flake streamline baby! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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