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Border Collies and Australian Shepherds- what are the differences?


Gemmy4ever
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I ran across a article at Working Aussie Source that tackled this subject, perhaps you will find it interesting.

http://www.workingaussiesource.com/stockdo...sbc_article.htm

 

Good grief! All I can say is "excuses, excuses, and more excuses" And top that all off with a nice dose of forgotten history lessons and some sprinkles of rationalization for not training each dog to work as far above it's faults as it can.

 

We can talk about "unique" breeds all we want, but sheeps...is sheeps! Each dog needs to work the perimeter of the flight zone to control the stock. For some dogs the FZ is smaller, others larger - for various reasons, from physical demeanor to inate power. If it *works* then great, if it doesn't...then the dog needs fixing, no matter what breed he's from.

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I have had working Aussies in the past, have them now(8) and will always have working Aussies But I do have a BC- a pup that I am hopeful of being a good stockdog.. There are good working stockdogs in both breeds. There is a difference of working ability between Aussies bred for working and Aussies bred for conformation, agility and every other wrong reason.. There is still a small pool of working Aussie bloodlines that can work all day long, calmly and any type of stock. .I’m partial to Aussies but I am not blind to other breeds being good stockdogs and along with my BC pup a Kelpie is in my near future.

Here are a few of my Aussies working at one year old if anyone is interested.

Dakota http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trVMV_uDkjs

BlackJack

Wolf

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This has been a great thread for folks like me who don't know diddly.

 

Anyone mind, now, explaining the principle differences in the working style of the kelpie and the BC and why would one choose one over the other? Oh, and also good videos of their working style?

 

(kelpiegirl, I'm lookin at you! :rolleyes: )

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Oh, I don't know, I am no expert. Working style though is similar- I think the difference mainly stems from Kelpies to be, in some cases, more independent, and not quite as desperate for lots of commands :rolleyes: They (the good ones) all all born with natural wide casts, eye, and good feel for their stock.

 

Here is a video of some pen work, by a nice Kelpie. She's a nice dog, and demonstrates good distance off the sheep, listening well, and well, I just like her a lot :D

 

 

So far, I love to watch BC's work sheep, but I also like to watch Kelpies work sheep, and I love living with my Kelpies- have not lived with a BC. Maybe some day, but so far, I am happy with my girls.

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I just love this! Now we know just what my daughter's salt-water-fanatic dog is - he's an Outer Banks Surf Spaniel. Rescued from Tennessee. I guess that's what fooled us, as he entered Border Collie rescue no where near a beach.

 

:rolleyes: The name "Southern California Surf Spaniel" is actually courtesy of Anna, and I like it a lot, too. :D Based on his new diagnosis with paroxysmal dyskinesia (see the thread I made in the Health and Genetics section), who knows--perhaps the crazy dog is also part Chinook. :D We will see, I guess. I know Anna doesn't agree with me on this, but I truly swear that every single owner of a purebred Aussie I have ever met (now in the dozens) who has seen Mojo in person identifies him definitively as an Aussie mix, and for the most part, the guesses at the rest of him are #1) Border Collie and #2) some type of spaniel....for whatever that's worth.

 

So...does anyone want to take a crack at what I stated in my post above? If not, I respectfully understand, and will quietly retreat back to the "companion" section of the Board. :D If anyone IS interested, though, I would really appreciate your honest opinions...these thoughts have literally been turning over in my mind since Mojo had his instinct test, many months ago, and I haven't had an opportunity to ask anyone who might actually be able to answer these questions until now. Here is the summary of my lengthy post in a few short questions, for your convenience:

 

1. In general, do real stockmen/women ever maintain confidence in developing the working ability of mixes, especially one that may not obviously represent any particular herding breed?

 

2. Does the existence of a significant number of "herdy" behaviors, off of stock, or a great work ethic, also off of stock, EVER translate into working ability, ON stock?

 

3. Just supposing, for a moment, that Mojo was known to be a purebred Aussie or BC: can an adult rescue dog who has never been exposed to stock until adulthood ever make it as a working dog, even in a hobby sense?

 

4. Making the same purebred assumption about Mojo as in #3: is it expected that an adult who has never previously seen stock turn on right away, or would multiple chances typically be given on stock, before it is concluded that he has no working ability?

 

5. Assuming for a moment that Mojo was instead a pup from known working parents, and not an adult rescue mix: would chasing/barking and eventually losing interest on his first go with stock be considered unusual, or would it possibly be accepted as a fairly normal reaction for a puppy who had never seen stock before, and one who still might eventually "turn on"?

 

6. Given #1-5, should I try Mojo on stock again?

 

I promise my feelings won't be hurt if you tell me what you really think, and again, I would like to express in advance my deep gratitude for any responses. Thank you so much!!

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I will give it a shot :D

 

I think the first question is really an individual thing- some folks like to work many different dogs at all different abilities, some like to only work those that have real potential (and I don't mean to be top in the county, but who have very good signs of ability to work sheep well), and some only want to work really REALLY good dogs.. Just like those of us who have dogs- all different walks of life. As long as the trainer is honest with you, and you can take it- then I see working sheep with a dog who is interested, but may not have a full tool box, and who isn't harrassing the sheep to death, as a good thing.

 

Lucy out of the box did some stalking of my other dogs, and staring, and outruns- and she does them all on sheep. These are hard wired behaviours, and they need to let them out- sort of like an opera singer singing in the shower- sometimes you just gotta let it out!!! On goose patrol Lucy does all of the behaviours that I ask for on sheep, but don't on geese- it's just what she does.

 

As to the rescue dogs actually being able to do work at an older age- yes, I have seen it. You can't take away dna- sure, it may get a little dusty and bogged down, but it is alway there, just waiting for that spark and then it comes alive.

 

I think when you put an older dog on stock, you need to realize that this dog hasn't been doing this, and he has learned to behave in a certain way around you- like leaving things alone, don't chase that, don't leave my side, etc. If you can give them the confidence to follow their inner voice, you will see that they can indeed blossom- that's where a good trainer makes ALL the difference (among other places!)

 

In answering that question- yes, it can be- some dogs turn on later than others, some are turned on, but over-whelmed. I remember seeing video of Lucy and her littermates at 11 weeks with geese. Some just watched, and shivered, some laid down, got up and did beautiful outruns around the geese, and some just pounced :rolleyes:

 

I think that before I made any decisions about my dog on working sheep, I would try it at least three times, and then wait a bit, and then try again. Again, as long as the sheep are well protected/not harrassed, I think this would be good for Mojo and you. I have another dog who could probably work sheep, but she has so many issues, that it is hard for her, but we have our other gig, and so her life is full :D

 

Here is a video of a BC, working sheep, and the music is so fitting, I get tears in my eyes every time I see it.

 

 

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1. In general, do real stockmen/women ever maintain confidence in developing the working ability of mixes, especially one that may not obviously represent any particular herding breed?

 

In working breeding mixes yes. Not really in random mixes, though everyone has the story of a childhood random mix that got up the stock and guarded the yard and watched the kids. I wonder today whether the stock of dogs has gone down, whether the stock of trust in dogs has gone down, or whether our memories have improved with time. :rolleyes:

 

Generally purpose bred dogs are the best investment of anyone's time. Generally. There is, however, the principle of "doing with what you've got" - a good old Scots principle, by the way - and see below for more on that.

 

2. Does the existence of a significant number of "herdy" behaviors, off of stock, or a great work ethic, also off of stock, EVER translate into working ability, ON stock?

 

There is no one-to-one relationship to any off stock behavior or personality trait, to on-stock ditto. Truly. Once one has worked the dog one might be able to pick out characteristics but they would be very subtle.

 

3. Just supposing, for a moment, that Mojo was known to be a purebred Aussie or BC: can an adult rescue dog who has never been exposed to stock until adulthood ever make it as a working dog, even in a hobby sense?

 

I sure hope so or I am letting a whole lot of people down. :D I introduce adults, even rather mature adults, to stock, all the time. The results are pretty good. Usually, any difficulties we face lie in upbringing - the dog being spoiled, or abused, or taught to avoid stock. A mature dog is actually easier in some ways to work for the first times - they are less confused about their role with people, if they've been raised right, or taught right recently. If your dog is interested in stock in a sustained way, and is a team player, you can keep going at it in some way. It might not be the "Real Thing", but it will get your foot in the door and maybe someday . . .

 

4. Making the same purebred assumption about Mojo as in #3: is it expected that an adult who has never previously seen stock turn on right away, or would multiple chances typically be given on stock, before it is concluded that he has no working ability?

 

In any situation, a dog is given mulitple chances to give a complete picture of what's going on in his brain before drawing the conclusion that it's not worth continuing. Okay, maybe one situation might be restricted to only a single session - where the dog truly is only bent upon death and destruction and nothing else. I had one of those once. Oddly, it was a very, very slow, restrained session and the dog never touched the sheep, but I could tell he wanted nothing but to kill one. I just got a feeling from the way the sheep moved and the way the dog was. Creepy.

 

5. Assuming for a moment that Mojo was instead a pup from known working parents, and not an adult rescue mix: would chasing/barking and eventually losing interest on his first go with stock be considered unusual, or would it possibly be accepted as a fairly normal reaction for a puppy who had never seen stock before, and one who still might eventually "turn on"?

 

I would have tried Mojo at least once, possibly twice more, in a single day. If going to stock isn't a huge giant expense and trouble, or if it's something you desperately want to do, it's worth trying again. I'm not super connected to the boards so I can't remember how old Mojo is exactly, but if he is a pup, and an Aussie at that, you've got quite a ways to go before it's time to give up on him. The Aussie clinic guy we had out, said Aussies took about ten times as long to train as Border Collies. Seriously - he trained both (and preferred Aussies) and he could have a Border Collie doing at six months what it take him five years to train an Aussie. They both take longer to mature, and also have fewer tools in the toolbox.

 

"Chasing/barking" is just excitement (or it can be undirected prey drive), and "losing interest" can result from suddenly feeling the pressure from the stock, which is a good thing. Or it can be just plain losing interest. You literally cannot know the difference until you've given it a good run again, and maybe even again. The only thing that can overcome fear of that pressure from the stock, is regaining that first excitement again. You can use lighter (flightier) sheep, chase them around yourself, take them in a larger area with him on a long line - the only thing you don't want to do is turn around, call him, nag him, say his name, take his attention from the sheep.

 

6. Given #1-5, should I try Mojo on stock again?

 

I think I've been clear on this point, but just in case not, yes, if it's something you want to do.

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Julie and Rebecca,

 

Thank you so much for taking the time to compose those detailed responses for me. I am deeply grateful for your experience and expertise. You've certainly given me a lot to think about! I am, indeed, interested in pursuing stock work, and I think the sheep were never in danger of being bitten/harrassed by Mojo (who has great bite inhibition, anyway), so I think I will actively look into finding another opportunity to take him to see sheep in the future! Thank you again! This thread has been so informative.

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Guest SweetJordan

Mojo in reponse to some of your questions I'll share my exp. w/ Riley as that's all I have.

Riley did not see stock until she was an adult(as she is a rescue). Her instincts just kicked in and one would have thought that she had been around them all her life. She may have seen them as a very young pup by the person who bred her, but that's about it. She didn't bark(except once because she didn't want to have to wait her turn while others got to work, as a young do she's not very patient), but it wasn't directed at the sheep. She never loses interest and would stay at the farm all day, if she were allowed to she would probably work until she fell over and died. The trainer who has worked w/ her told me that if I'm serious about it she could trial.

I do have papers on her however. She is ABCA reg., and although the breeder she came from is not one that I would have picked, she does have some good lines in her. Including having world champ. Bob as a grandpa. And her stocktrainer felt after seeing her for the first time that she had been bred well(without having a look at papers).

 

Anyway, just sharing how my rescue dog could certainly work/trial. And I say if you don't know what Mojo has in him, give it another shot if it's something you want to do.

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Guest SweetJordan

Back to the org. topic.

For those who have had Aussies how do you feel about the mini-aussie? Is there really a mini-aussie or is it just breeders doing things that they shouldn't?

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I have a couple of students with some great, tough Aussies from working lines. No quit in these dog and they actually can kick themselves out on the bubble, balance and not wear excessively ....doing some good old-fashioned fetching and walkabouts. They have a good down and although they do look to their owner quite a bit, they do not loose control of their stock. For those that may wonder, no hint of any Border Collies in the lines...They quit barking at the very beginning , are loosed eyed and are just darn good Aussies. Not afraid of the stock.

 

We are working on them to slow down and now one work is like *watching paint dry* which is great (no chase, nice and slow, rates well etc...) ....she thinks and balances and walk good behind them, has a nice outrun and stop. We have taken her out to the big field and she worked 5-20 sheep and settled down....the male from the same litter is pushier but coming along fne. They are about 16/18 months old.

 

I have had other Aussies that did not have much instinct....no fault of the dog, just the breeding.

 

The Aussie people keept saying you must train an Aussie WAY DIFFERENT than a Border Collie...to me a down is a down, balance is balance, listen to me is listen to me. The sheep will let the dog know if the bubble is breeched....some Aussie can be next to the sheep while other have to be much farther off. I do see the Aussie is being more vocal and watching the handler more but work wise, but in the end they all work the stock.

 

Diane

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We have a herding mix (we speculate that he is A LOT of english shepherd, but I have never seen one work so I can't relate Tuckers working style to that of an ES) that I have take out to Anna's a few times. And he truly has a grand ol time working his sheep and showed interest immediately. He wont amount to anything but at the same time he doesn't do any harm so I keep working him because I think its fun to take a break from working Chesney.

 

Anyways when I first took Tucker to Anna's to work him it was pretty standard that Anna works a new young dog that comes out for training with their owner 3 times that day. I think that after that 3rd time of taking Tucker to sheep and he still really didn't work his stock for more than a minute before losing interest I would simply find another activity that my dog really enjoyed doing. I do know though that when dogs are tested and started at Anna's she does give the dogs 3 tries to figure out if thats what they really want to do. I would trust that if Mojo showed little interest each time he was taken out there then I might really would think hard about taking him back. I know its a long drive from Irvine. I couldn't imagine driving from LA :rolleyes:

 

Just my .02c knowing how Anna works new students when they come out to her place. Since from reading it seems that everyone is under the impression they get one shot and thats it if they don't show interest with her :D

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  • 2 weeks later...
Back to the org. topic.

For those who have had Aussies how do you feel about the mini-aussie? Is there really a mini-aussie or is it just breeders doing things that they shouldn't?

 

 

I'm new to posting here - Sue Rayburn introduced me to this site, but I've been reading posts for a while - so I thought I would answer this question. There have always been smaller Aussies in the breed, like 25-30 lbs. They aren't mini's - just the small end of the breed spectrum and they shouldn't be called "mini's". However when it comes to breeders deliberately breeding "mini's" it gets a little more convoluted because they are breeding for size and I do think there is a substantial number that cross in other breeds to get the size. I've seen some that look very Sheltie like for example. It's much worse when you have the so-called "toy" aussies. Those are definately mixes and, like "toy" boxers, "designer" breeds, "mini" border collies - these are usually breeders trying to make money off a gullible public.

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...............The ideal Aussie is less of a specialist than a Border Collie. They've got more of a "yard dog" makeup to their personality - not only can they be trained to move stock around, but they also naturally seek out other roles for themselves - protection of property, human companionship, alert dog ("Timmy fell in the well!"). That first one is important because one thing that happens first to ill-bred Aussies, is often overprotectiveness - dogs that lack the impulse control and discernment to judge friend from foe.............

 

 

I just wanted to say - that is THE BEST post I've read outlining the difference between the two breeds. And - especially - the bouncing. I can't tell you how many times I've stood there waiting while my dog has been pogoing up and down, up and down, until he finally subsides and sits. :rolleyes:

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  • 4 weeks later...
I appreciate any attempt to understand a breed for the sake of its unique merits. It does not amuse me, however, to see a contrast of a breed done by someone who understands little about the "other" breed.

 

Someone who can say, with a straight face, that the Border Collie was not bred to handle large groups of heavy breed sheep, has neither read about the history of the breed, nor done much examination of the breed in its native land. The three tier system of sheep breeding could not have been developed without such a versatile sheepdog as the Border Collie, able to handle both the light, wily native maternal breeds and the tough, heavy down terminal breeds and lambs - in the same operation. Thousands of them, thank you kindly.

 

*stomping away to cool off*

 

Remind me never to argue with Becca :rolleyes:

 

My impressions of Aussies are that they are barkier and jumpier than Border Collies, from an every day dog standpoint. From a working standpoint, I've only seen a couple of Aussies on sheep, and I definitely second the Scatter Method impression.

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Anyways when I first took Tucker to Anna's to work him it was pretty standard that Anna works a new young dog that comes out for training with their owner 3 times that day. I think that after that 3rd time of taking Tucker to sheep and he still really didn't work his stock for more than a minute before losing interest I would simply find another activity that my dog really enjoyed doing. I do know though that when dogs are tested and started at Anna's she does give the dogs 3 tries to figure out if thats what they really want to do. I would trust that if Mojo showed little interest each time he was taken out there then I might really would think hard about taking him back. I know its a long drive from Irvine. I couldn't imagine driving from LA :rolleyes:

 

Hi, Danielle--so sorry for the delay in my response, but I didn't see your reply until just now. Yes, Anna's place was quite the drive, but she came highly recommended, and I'm pretty dedicated to my dog. :D Yes, Mojo and I DO actively participate in other activities together, both before and after going to Anna's, but for various reasons, I felt that if given the chance, Mojo might end up being able to work stock someday, and that learning to work stock might be good for his confidence levels, and so I was willing to put as much effort towards this end as I thought was reasonable...which is why I made the posts that I did in this thread, as I was not sure what more experienced people would consider a "reasonable" amount of effort in starting a rescued adult mixed-herding-breed dog on stock.

 

I will try to clarify again what I was hoping to understand through my previous posts on this thread: I happen to know that Mojo is a bit neurotic (i.e., very reactive, highly sensitive, and easily overstimulated), and as such, he stresses out quite a lot over certain new experiences. So, putting his mixed-breed heritage aside for a second, all my questions regarding how one would ideally go about introducing an ADULT to stock who likely has never seen sheep before had to do with the fact that I was mainly wondering if there would have been any value in trying Mojo, say, three times over multiple days, or even over several weeks, rather than three tries all in the same hour or two, so as to avoid stress and sensory overload. If I had had the luxury to space out his first encounters with sheep over time in this manner, could I then have realistically expected different results? It is my current understanding that young pups are only briefly introduced to sheep in a relatively controlled fashion, and these introductions are sometimes several weeks or months apart--at which point, a well-bred pup will eventually "turn on" at some later, unpredictable date with little prior warning or indicative signs--i.e., one day he's just a normal puppy, and another day, he's realized that he is a working BC. IF that is true, I am just wondering why, then, any determination of the future working ability of an adult dog would instead depend on the exhibition of sustained interest in sheep, for "more than a minute," as you noted, on the very first DAY he meets sheep (even if there are multiple tries on that same day), when this would not be expected of a pup, who may have still have had the additional advantage of growing up around sheep and may have at least been able to smell or hear them right from the beginning and recognize that they are not alien creatures who might eat him.....or, am I completely misunderstanding how a pup typically turns on, and IS turning on right away at the first go expected of a pup? Or is it that the "instant" turn-on expected of an adult is simply due to the logistic factors typically associated with a rescue (i.e., that few would want to put the time, money, and effort into training an adult of unknown or doubtful potential, who might have to be "nursed" along over years, and still will likely never make a useful trial dog at the end of it)?

 

Also, in Mojo's defense, I should say that his first try on sheep actually seemed quite promising to my novice eyes. He did NOT, in fact, lose interest whatsoever for the entire duration of the first go--as soon as he caught sight of the sheep as we entered the arena on-leash, he started to bark at them like mad, furiously straining on the leash as I had never seen him strain before. Anna said to let him go, and so with some great amount of trepidation, I did--and lo and behold, there he went, eagerly racing to CIRCLE THE SHEEP IN BOTH DIRECTIONS RIGHT OFF THE BAT as if he were completely compelled to do it, although continuing to bark the whole time. He kept quite close to the sheep, but never gripped or did anything obnoxious other than continue to bark, but by nature, he is a barker (i.e., he barks when he is happy/sad/angry/frustrated, and is quite vocal, otherwise, employing all manner of growls and grumbles and whines and howls to communicate with me and other dogs), so, I don't know if his barking at the sheep really counted for anything. He also naturally carries his tail over his back when he is in motion (it is only down when he is at rest), so I don't know if that counted for anything, either.

 

In my recollection, the only reason that first go ended was because Anna eventually asked me to call him off, so for lack of something better, I told him to "down," and indeed, he stopped mid-stride and mid-bark and down he went (he is very well trained, obedience-wise), so I went to collect him, put his leash back on, and walked him out of the arena. We took a break, chatted with Anna, and then went back in. Although he went barking mad again at his second sight of the sheep, he was obviously tired after his first experience, and to me, it seemed clear that all the excitement had really started to stress him out--after all, it WAS quite an overwhelming experience, even for me! My heart was pounding, too, as I'd never seen anything like it before and really didn't know what to expect. I was still worried that a sheep would be injured, or Mojo would be (he's not that big), and I also think that my uncertainty about what to do, where I should stand, not knowing if I should be close to him or stay back, whether I should say anything or gesture encouragingly or leave him to it, etc., didn't help things, as Mojo is also very attuned/sensitive to my emotions, and I think the confused cloud emanating from my general direction was definitely putting him off.

 

From my point of view, as time wore on across the rest of the second and third tries, Mojo was getting so cumulatively stressed out over the sheep that it eventually got to the point when, at the end of the third try, that he went to go lay down in the corner of the arena, panting and upset, only getting up to bark intermittently at the sheep if they were moving (he seemed to want them to stay still, and keep back from him, or me--I couldn't quite tell). Keep in mind that by then, he had pretty much been barking in a panic almost non-stop for two hours; for example, when he first set foot on the place, he was instantly stressed out by Anna's dogs (Mojo is leash-reactive to other dogs), and it took lots and lots of my walking him up and down the length of the field to calm him before our turn to go. This was made more difficult by the fact that he also barked at Anna's cattle out in the field every time one looked at him while we were walking, or even later, when we were supposed to be taking a break from the sheep, and so would get all worked up again when I had just gotten him to relax...I didn't know, BTW, if wanting to bark at the cattle in the first place was a good or a bad sign--Anna had said that cattle often seem particularly challenging to a dog because of their size and attitude. While Mojo ignored her horse at first, by the end of the third run, he was barking at her every time she wandered near him, too, but I've seen him like that before--when he is really, unbelievably stressed over something, until he settles down again, every single little subsequent thing will set him off. He normally ignores horses completely, and he's seen plenty with me before.

 

Again, all this near-continuous barking with what seemed like increasing desperation on his part as the day progressed indicated to me that Mojo was pretty much at his breaking point with all of this new stuff suddenly thrown on him. Indeed, Mojo was so exhausted and relieved once we got back into the car that he slept ALL the way back to L.A. (over 3 hours with traffic), and then once we were home, he was unconscious for the rest of the day and long into the night, too.

 

Here's an interesting note: we were supposed to have our regularly scheduled agility lesson the very next morning after all of this...I seriously thought about canceling it because I was worried that he might be physically sore, or still emotionally unstable, but he seemed bright and chipper when he woke up, so I decided to see what would happen....and guess what? Mojo was absolutely, positively, unbelievably focused, attentive, and fantastic. Our trainer was amazed at the difference in him. He normally is quite focused/attentive/fantastic, and loves agility, but that morning, he REALLY loved agility. So, I have yet another motivation for possibly wanting to try him on sheep again if that same result holds true the next time!

 

So. There you have it--my super-novice assessment of Mojo's first herding instinct test, which could be totally wrong. I hope that helps you understand what I am trying to understand and why I simultaneously have confusion, doubts, and optimism about Mojo's herding instinct, or lack thereof, all rolled up together. In conclusion, based on all the advice I was previously given above, I currently believe that there is enough instinct there that I DO plan on taking Mojo to sheep again, the next time I can find the opportunity, to see how it turns out, and depending on how that goes, maybe one or two more times after that on separate occasions. If he is not demonstrating any real ability after those multiple opportunities, I will finally put his "stock" career to rest. :D

 

Danielle, may I please ask, though, just because I want to compare notes: what exactly happened when you say that Tucker "showed interest immediately" when you first took him to Anna's? Also, what makes you say that he is never going to amount to much as a working dog?

 

SweetJordan, BTW, thanks so much for posting about Riley--it is exciting to hear that your adult rescue did turn on immediately, too, and could even be a trial prospect if you wanted her to be!

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