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Difficulty getting the dog to come in


Guest Riptide
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Guest Riptide

Hi

I am relatively new to this endeavor and am doing fairly well with my 2 year old BC. I have gotten a lot of great help from attending clinics, and some private lessons some great people. My question tonight is not about him. I recently (in the past month) acquired a 18 month old BC who comes with a history and issues. I don't really know the history and all the issues just what I have seen. When I have seen him work in the past, he appeared that he was just working nice and wide until as I watched over time I could see that he was just staying as far away as he could to relieve the pressure of the handler. At times he appeared to be working his own imaginary flock away from the real sheep. He will actual flank quite nicely to the right but will only fetch a few feet before he circles wide or runs the other way. He does seem to know now exactly what the sheep are doing and will come back around. (This is really hard to explain)He will not go to the right except if you leave him enough room to blow in and then sometimes he will go all the way around and if you step in to push him out (because he will come in a grip)he turns around and runs away instead of being pushed out. I took him into a smaller pen but he would just run to the other side if I set up for him to move to the left. We are just beginning to establish our relationship and partnership and what I am wondering is should I forget about where he is and where he has been and just start fresh from scratch like I was starting a brand new dog and see if we can overcome the bad habits. You posted on the too much dog posts some ways to help get the dog more comfortable do you think that would work in this situation. I am not sure I am explaining very well but hope that you have some ideas. Thanks

Avis

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Guest aurdank

Hi Avis,

It seems that there are two problems: first he likes to flank one way but not the other; and secondly, he is shy about coming on to his stock because he feels pressure from them and is inclined either to flee or to blast in and grip if he gets too close or senses a correction coming.

 

With regard to the first problem, it is common that dogs are initially either right handed or left handed, but that this can be corrected easily as training proceeds. It may be that he's reluctant to flank to the right, however, because of some pressure in the field (say a pen full of sheep that may be too nearby)against which you are asking him to flank, and which as a young dog he may be fearful of doing. So, try to identify the source of pressure, if any (it could be something as simple as a mound or hill), and if you locate it, try switching directions; he may be happy to flank to the right if you have him flank in the direction of as opposed to against the pressure. Eventually, of course, he'll have to learn to flank against pressure, but this can come later as his training proceeds.

 

With regard to the second problem, I assume that when he comes up on to the sheep, he stops coming forward even though they haven't yet moved and that any attempt to bring him closer results in his leaving. This shows his sensitivity to pressure, and is also the reason he flees when you try to set up a correction, or to get him to flank in a direction that makes him uncomfortable. It may be that his previous owner dealt with his tendency to blast-in/grip, which sensitive young dogs often do, by over-disciplining him, such that he now anticipates getting severely punished. It may also be the case that your sheep are too heavy for him at this stage, and that he is losing confidence by either fleeing or gripping. You want to start on dog broken sheep, to be sure, but not ones that are overly so, unless you are working in a round pen where they will follow you regardless of the pressure from the dog.

 

But let us assume that the sheep are fine. Is it possible, however, that the sheep have indeed begun to move when the dog approaches them but that you are asking him to work more closely than he is comfortable doing? If so, as long as they have begun to move, even if slowly, let him work at his chosen distance. It may be that trying to make him work more closely to the stock and/or at a faster pace than he feels comfortable doing is creating unnecessary pressure on him. Later in his training you can get him to vary the pace, if this is indeed what is happening.

 

But if it is simply a case of getting the dog to relax and to gain confidence around stock, the packed pen method that I described in another post is one way to do this. Another way would be to take him into a very confined area (a very small round pen or corner of a barn that you fence off) and have him work a few sheep, with you standing in the middle of them. Try to get him to circle. Here he will try to get around you as he circles, will try to get in and grip because the pressure will be high, but with a crook in hand, you can gently force him to work around you so that he doesn't grip. Just place the crook between him and the sheep, moving it continuously in front of him as he goes around and tries to get to them, so that he is not in fact allowed to. Eventually, he should start circling around your feet (and the dog-broken sheep who are clinging to you) in a more relaxed way, without trying to grip. This is a more dynamic version of the packed pen method; it gets the dog to relax while working and while forcing him to engage the sheep in close proximity and to stop gripping as he does. Above all don't shout or otherwise get on him if he doesn't seem to co-operate; that will undermine his confidence. The idea is to get him to relax first and to stop the gripping. At most, I would use a gentle "Nooo" if he takes a nip. When he starts to relax, let him work in this mode for a little while, praising him as he does, and then quit. You don't want to get him mentally tired by overdoing the exercise.

 

Apart from these techniques, I think you're right to start over again, as a way of building his confidence and getting to solidify his relationship with you. I would return to the round pen with dog broken sheep and do balance exercises. Walk back; turn to the right; straighten up; walk directly back; turn to the left, etc., varying your directions in unpredictable ways. The sheep will turn toward you; the dog will flank in the opposite direction (on balance) as they turn (you can extend your crook or whip in the opposite direction that you want him to flank in order to help him), and he will learn that you are the focus of his work, that he's working for you, and to read his sheep in that context. If you turn at sharp right angles, instead of walking back in a sepentine fashion as in a figure eight (in other words, do little square turns), you will also sharpen his flanks and make them square. This will allow you to correct his reluctance to flank to the right as he is working, which is the best way. There are other ways to do this as well, after you leave the round pen, but that can be a subject for another time.

 

Albion

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Guest Riptide

Thank you for your ideas. If I had lights I would be out there now but will have to wait till morning. I don't have a round pen and limited space for one. I could probably create an area approximately 30 ft in diameter but would this be big enough to work dogs in. I have a 6 month old BC who I will need to get started one day so it would be used for more than the one dog. I could also do a rectangle with rounded corners that would be a bit bigger if that would be better. I do have an area in the barn we could work. I have only dog broke sheep from knee knockers to ones that will take flight with some dogs. I will let you know how it goes tomorrow and see if I don't see some progress.

thanks again for taking the time to answer me.

Avis

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Guest aurdank

A round pen 30 ft in diameter may be just the right size for your BC, though it might be a tad small normally. Try it and see. I should have also said that his first trainer may have pushed him off his stock, as a matter of training principle as well, but would seem to have overdone it; so it's aproblem that'll need fixing, and the closer he's forced to work on both stock and near to the handler for now, the better. Just one more thing: when you do the barn exercise, you might want to keep a short leash on the dog and let it drop as he starts working but remain on the collar, just in case you need to take hold. But that's a judgement you can make, whether he'd need to have one on him. Good luck and keep us posted.

 

Albion

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Guest Riptide

Hi here is my update from yesterday. I took the dog into a small area fairly full of sheep. The best thing I had available at the moment. You could see that he was quite uncomfortable in that close proximity with the sheep. He lied down without hesitation on command but kept his head looking away. I kept him on leash and we moved around the sheep in both directions. At first he was very uncomfortable in both directions. He relaxed first on the side he has been comfortable and began moving with some confidence at which time he tried to grab the closest sheep as we went by. I gave him a mild correction and we kept moving. He then relaxed enough to move around the sheep (still on lead and under control) confidently. We did this in both directions. In both directions he tried to fly in and grip when he first starting paying attention that there were sheep present. We didn't do it too long and as soon as he was moving without trying to grip and somewhat confidently we quit and he was praised for a job well done. Maybe not the perfect set up and scenerio but I felt like we got somewhere. We'll see a little later today when we go out again. About the round pen, can an oval/oblong pen work. Going to be doing some measurements later and see what is the largest area I can come up with. Hope to have continued progress to share.

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Guest aurdank

Avis,

 

Great start. Yep. He's afraid of pressure generated by close proximity to the sheep, which is why in the field he was working out of contact. Hard to say how much of this is him or his initial training. Good that he was able to relax eventually. He's going to grip a bit as you start working in the round pen; so be prepared. I'd actually put a long line on him which you can let drag as he works, at least until you feel comfortable working him without one. In correcting for unnecessary gripping though be careful not to take the grip out of him altogether; good that you gave him only a light correction. When you start to work him and see that he's going to grip use your voice (AGGGH) in a timely`way to fend him off, and perhaps also the wave of the crook or buggy whip (even though now he needs confidence building, I'd bet he'll soon show keeness around the stock and a crook he may not find intimidating enough). Eventually, you'll want to teach him to grip on command, which will also teach him the difference between a proper and improper grip. A 50 ft round pen sounds just fine, though a smaller one wouldn't hurt in the beginning; perhaps you could start a litle smaller and see how that works and expand it later, if it isn't too much trouble to set up. The shape doesn't matter too much either; as long as it's roughly round.

 

Albion

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