Nipping at Guests - Chasing Cars

[Miss Scarlet]

A couple of months ago we rescued Miss Scarlet, a 2 year old BC. She's great with us: myself, my wife and my 24 year old daughter (that does not live with us). My brother and his wife came over for a 3 day visit, and she was always barking and nipping at them. When I take her out for a walk, she sometimes lunges and nips at people passing by (usually after they have their backs turned at her). Some people she's good with, and allows a pet and scratch, and for some it's an unexpected jump up and nip. We have her in obedience training now, but I just can't figure her out.

 

When we got her from the shelter, she was only there for a week, yet her fur was worn off of her elbows. She was dehydrated, and a little under weight and submissive. I think she may have been crated a prolonged period of time, not properly socialized as a pup, and perhaps abused by her original owner.

 

Like I said, she's great with us, and other dogs, but with people outside the pack… not so much!

 

Chasing cars is big with her, too….

I'll entertain ANY and ALL positive reinforcement suggestions on how to get her socialized and stop the nipping and car chasing.

[gcv-border]

Other people will have a more complete answer, but just a few of my thoughts here:

 

Based on what you describe, I would definitely think that she was not socialized well when she was younger. Abused, probably not.

 

If she has been with you for 1, 2 or 3 months, she may just be starting to show her true personality. Generally, with a rescue dog, they can be (not always) on their 'good' behavior until they become comfortable with their situation (a couple of weeks to a couple of months) and then their real personality shows itself. Please buy yourself a copy of Patricia McConnell's book "Love Has No Age Limit". It is a short and clearly written book describing common problems with rescue dogs and gives techniques to help resolve them.

 

To me, she sounds fear aggressive. She is not sure of herself or other people in many situations - so she reacts. To help her become more comfortable, set up situations where the people she 'meets' will give her treats. Make sure the treats are super delicious - chicken or cheese or steak, not dry kibble. In the beginning, the subject can throw the treat in front of Miss Scarlet if she is too scared to take them from hand. Eventually, she should start approaching people looking for good things.

 

When I got my rescue dog, the obedience class instructor told the whole class that we should take our dog out to meet 100 new people in 100 days. And the people should be a diverse as possible and dressed differently too.

 

How to stop car chasing? Don't know, so I will be learning too.

 

Jovi

[Miss Scarlet]

Other people will have a more complete answer, but just a few of my thoughts here:

 

Based on what you describe, I would definitely think that she was not socialized well when she was younger. Abused, probably not.

 

If she has been with you for 1, 2 or 3 months, she may just be starting to show her true personality. Generally, with a rescue dog, they can be (not always) on their 'good' behavior until they become comfortable with their situation (a couple of weeks to a couple of months) and then their real personality shows itself. Please buy yourself a copy of Patricia McConnell's book "Love Has No Age Limit". It is a short and clearly written book describing common problems with rescue dogs and gives techniques to help resolve them.

 

To me, she sounds fear aggressive. She is not sure of herself or other people in many situations - so she reacts. To help her become more comfortable, set up situations where the people she 'meets' will give her treats. Make sure the treats are super delicious - chicken or cheese or steak, not dry kibble. In the beginning, the subject can throw the treat in front of Miss Scarlet if she is too scared to take them from hand. Eventually, she should start approaching people looking for good things.

 

When I got my rescue dog, the obedience class instructor told the whole class that we should take our dog out to meet 100 new people in 100 days. And the people should be a diverse as possible and dressed differently too.

 

How to stop car chasing? Don't know, so I will be learning too.

 

Jovi

 

Jovi, Thanks for the speedy reply! What you say is true... She didn't bark for about 2 weeks after we got her home. Now that's she's comfortable she's been a little hard to handle! Through the obedience training that we just started, I'm learning how to get into her head and also learning how to be a better alpha pack leader, and it's working. I make her sit and wait at the patio door, I go out, then I say "OK" to release her to go out, and make eye contact as much as possible when training her. I'll try the 100 people thing... but it's hard, "Hey meet my dog.. she might nip at you!"

 

She's learned several tricks and responds good to my voice and commands. When she's with us, she's the sweetest little dog! Check this video out!

 

I also think you're right about the fear aggression. She'll take food from a stranger's hand.. no problem there.. it's just the non-provoked lunge and nip that's hard to predict. I don't see it coming and there are no signs like showing the teeth or growling. On the trail, if someone is jogging and appears to be "big" or wearing a baseball cap, or a man, I can usually bet she's going to react.

 

It's interesting when my 24 yr old daughter brings her 3 month baby over, she gets real uneasy when the baby cries. She'll go to the patio door, and leap up on it to get away from the situation. She's doesn't nip at the baby, which is great, so I guess she's controlling herself by trying to remove herself away from the situation.

[gcv-border]

Jovi, Thanks for the speedy reply! What you say is true... She didn't bark for about 2 weeks after we got her home. Now that's she's comfortable she's been a little hard to handle! Through the obedience training that we just started, I'm learning how to get into her head and also learning how to be a better alpha pack leader, and it's working. I make her sit and wait at the patio door, I go out, then I say "OK" to release her to go out, and make eye contact as much as possible when training her. I'll try the 100 people thing... but it's hard, "Hey meet my dog.. she might nip at you!"

 

Yes, 100 people in 100 days is very hard to do. (I never made it. ) But it is an easy mantra to remember. Don't let her get close enough to the point where she is uncomfortable (i.e. may nip) - which is the reason why I suggested that they throw the treat on the ground in front of her. Then throw it a little closer, then closer. Don't try to urge her to get closer. She should want to get closer on her own. She may not take treats from someone's hand at first, but that is OK. Be patient.

 

She's learned several tricks and responds good to my voice and commands. When she's with us, she's the sweetest little dog! Check this video out!

 

I also think you're right about the fear aggression. She'll take food from a stranger's hand.. no problem there.. it's just the non-provoked lunge and nip that's hard to predict. I don't see it coming and there are no signs like showing the teeth or growling. On the trail, if someone is jogging and appears to be "big" or wearing a baseball cap, or a man, I can usually bet she's going to react.

 

Yes, big person, male, hats and sunglasses are a few of the triggers for dogs who lack confidence. Therefore once she seems to become more comfortable meeting new people, those are the exact people you try to seek out and start her socialization all over again with bigger challenges. Again, it is a process (often quite lengthy), so be patient.

 

It's interesting when my 24 yr old daughter brings her 3 month baby over, she gets real uneasy when the baby cries. She'll go to the patio door, and leap up on it to get away from the situation. She's doesn't nip at the baby, which is great, so I guess she's controlling herself by trying to remove herself away from the situation.

 

My dog didn't like small toddlers when I got him as a puppy. Now that he is 5 and is more confident, he will let them pet him without a problem. When I had a chance and the toddler and mother were agreeable, I would give the toddler a treat so he could treat my dog when he approached.

 

Jovi

[Miss Scarlet]

I may be making a breakthrough with the car chasing... I've been elevating my Alpha-dog status with her, by making her sit and stay when I open the door to the backyard, I go though first and then wait & give her the "OK" command. Also.. when we're out on a walk, I'll see the car coming, and get between her and the car with a high value treat in my hand. When the car comes by, I'll keep her attention with the treat by her nose, and she's been pretty much ignoring the cars! I've also been trying the "Leave It" command with the car chasing, too...

I've also come to the realization that the real training is the handler... not necessarily the dog! ;.)

[Sue R]

I've also come to the realization that the real training is the handler... not necessarily the dog! ;.)

If that isn't the truth!

 

Sounds like you are doing well with the car chasing at least. You are being pro-active about that (doing something that encourages good behavior and prevents bad behavior *before* she does something you don't want) and you need to apply that principle to your other issues with her.

 

She's developed or is showing some behaviors that you don't want and you will need to take some some (and lots of consistency) to replace those with good behaviors. A combination of training and management may be necessary, at least until the training has firmly ingrained the desirable behaviors.

 

We were once involved with a "bite 'em when they leave" dog (an Airedale Terrier). My husband found that when she did not get the desired result (the person reacting by leaving, so to speak) and when he turned around and let her know that was not acceptable to him (the person leaving), and then he befriended her, she became his best friend because she found out her fear was ungrounded.

 

Best wishes in working through these issues. It is not easy but I believe it can be done.

[Miss Scarlet]

If that isn't the truth!

 

Sounds like you are doing well with the car chasing at least. You are being pro-active about that (doing something that encourages good behavior and prevents bad behavior *before* she does something you don't want) and you need to apply that principle to your other issues with her.

 

She's developed or is showing some behaviors that you don't want and you will need to take some some (and lots of consistency) to replace those with good behaviors. A combination of training and management may be necessary, at least until the training has firmly ingrained the desirable behaviors.

 

We were once involved with a "bite 'em when they leave" dog (an Airedale Terrier). My husband found that when she did not get the desired result (the person reacting by leaving, so to speak) and when he turned around and let her know that was not acceptable to him (the person leaving), and then he befriended her, she became his best friend because she found out her fear was ungrounded.

 

Best wishes in working through these issues. It is not easy but I believe it can be done.

 

I think there should be a TV show called, "Are You Smarter than a Border Collie"! That could help us all! Our 34 year old daughter came over last night and met Scarlet for the first time, along with our other daughter with the 3 month baby for a visit. Scarlet was just fine with the entire situation!She was even wearing a baseball hat!

When the baby was crying for food or to be changed, Scarlet ran over to the patio door and wanted out! Again, it seems like she wants to remove herself from the situation instaed of trying to control it! That's good~!

It's been 16 years since we trained a Border Collie. Our old friend, Brigitte had to be put down in August. She had liver cancer. So we're doing the best we can, knowing in the end, Scarlet will be a great dog. Here's a video tribute to Brigitte if you'd like to see it.

[Miss Scarlet]

Here's an update. We took her to the pet store to meet some people and dogs tonight. She met about 4 dogs with no unusual behaviorism...sniffing butts and the like... She was being well behaved, and I slipped a high value treat to the new person to have them make Scarlet do a trick. She sat, begged, rolled over, and did a couple shakes, played possum (play dead). She met about 5 new people and was good. Then this older man came up to us, he knelt down and gave her a treat, and she was licking his face, and being real cute. Then after a few minutes, she nipped. He understood, and was real good about not being afraid or withdrawn. Then she started barking at him, and nipping more. After that encounter she was barking a lot at other people in the store, and I took her outside. I suppose she was over stimulated and perhaps I should have taken it slower, and just had her meet 2 people, then leave...

Thoughts?

 

THEN, we were going to the car, something spooked her, she wiggled out of her harness, and took OFF!!! I was running after her yelling for her to sit, stay, come... and she just kept on going! Luckily, a young guy was able to get in front of her, had his arms out and she stopped to bark at him. I was able to catch up with her and put the harness back on... It wasn't fun !!! I've been practicing with her on the 25' lead to come back to me, and sh'e been doing fine... Again perhaps it was over-stimulation.

[ejano]

It might be the motion that is a trigger - For several different reasons, including his herding instinct and the fact he was attacked, Brodie has a tendency to over-react when things come at him too speedily. Think about her "eye" - does she fixate on things? Because she's nipping after the people pass, is she trying to corral them in some way? The car chasing is another "round it up and bring it home" behavior - and it's a killer.

 

Also - I'd keep her away - far away - from the baby. Just my two cents and I know others have done it differently and I myself was raised by a BC, but when you have a dog that is an unknown quantity and a fragile child, it's not a good mix. If she is clearly telling you that the noise the baby is making is driving her nuts, do her a favor and give her a break. Okay, there's baby , isn't it nice, now lets go have a nap ourselves...before the baby starts to fuss. (Sets my teeth on edge too . I hate to hear a baby cry - give it anything in the world, just don't let it cry - and if you can't stop it, I'll be back when things wind down...).

 

My homemade rule is that if the kid is taller than my dog so their faces aren't eye level, then they get to play with them. Your recent post of the incident at the pet store illustrates my meaning - putting yourself at eye level does something to a nervous dog - they don't like being stared at.

 

Ladybug was left at the SPCA for nipping at a toddler that was pulling her hair - our lucky day, but she could have also been just as easily put down for doing so. Thankfully the powers that be thought she was really a good girl under a great deal of unfair stress.

 

Liz

 

____________________________

 

 

It's interesting when my 24 yr old daughter brings her 3 month baby over, she gets real uneasy when the baby cries. She'll go to the patio door, and leap up on it to get away from the situation. She's doesn't nip at the baby, which is great, so I guess she's controlling herself by trying to remove herself away from the situation.

 

My dog didn't like small toddlers when I got him as a puppy. Now that he is 5 and is more confident, he will let them pet him without a problem. When I had a chance and the toddler and mother were agreeable, I would give the toddler a treat so he could treat my dog when he approached.

 

Jovi

[Miss Scarlet]

It might be the motion that is a trigger - For several different reasons, including his herding instinct and the fact he was attacked, Brodie has a tendency to over-react when things come at him too speedily. Think about her "eye" - does she fixate on things? Because she's nipping after the people pass, is she trying to corral them in some way? The car chasing is another "round it up and bring it home" behavior - and it's a killer.

 

Also - I'd keep her away - far away - from the baby. Just my two cents and I know others have done it differently and I myself was raised by a BC, but when you have a dog that is an unknown quantity and a fragile child, it's not a good mix. If she is clearly telling you that the noise the baby is making is driving her nuts, do her a favor and give her a break. Okay, there's baby , isn't it nice, now lets go have a nap ourselves...before the baby starts to fuss. (Sets my teeth on edge too . I hate to hear a baby cry - give it anything in the world, just don't let it cry - and if you can't stop it, I'll be back when things wind down...).

 

My homemade rule is that if the kid is taller than my dog so their faces aren't eye level, then they get to play with them. Your recent post of the incident at the pet store illustrates my meaning - putting yourself at eye level does something to a nervous dog - they don't like being stared at.

 

Ladybug was left at the SPCA for nipping at a toddler that was pulling her hair - our lucky day, but she could have also been just as easily put down for doing so. Thankfully the powers that be thought she was really a good girl under a great deal of unfair stress.

 

Liz

 

____________________________

 

 

It's interesting when my 24 yr old daughter brings her 3 month baby over, she gets real uneasy when the baby cries. She'll go to the patio door, and leap up on it to get away from the situation. She's doesn't nip at the baby, which is great, so I guess she's controlling herself by trying to remove herself away from the situation.

 

My dog didn't like small toddlers when I got him as a puppy. Now that he is 5 and is more confident, he will let them pet him without a problem. When I had a chance and the toddler and mother were agreeable, I would give the toddler a treat so he could treat my dog when he approached.

 

Jovi

 

I agree with the baby comment... Scarlet was a bundle of energy when the baby was here, even when he wasn't crying. Scarlet wouldn't settle down. After I had enough of the crying and the energy bundle, I took her to the bedroom, shut the door and started watching TV. She crashed immediately!! So giving her a break when things are overstimulating, sounds like a good idea. Also your rule of thumb, "You must be taller than this border collie to ride this border collie" sounds right on.

About the incident last night at the pet store. The guy who thought he was trying to help WAS a little pushy. Plus he started talking about "What Caesar Milan would do"... But He's NOT Caesar!.... by a long shot! I should have thanked him for participating, and taken her out of the store for a break. I have to learn this may take a while... to get her re-socialized properly. Being a rescue, who knows what conditions she was exposed to. I'm still mad at her, but she probably forgot about the whole ordeal after we got into the car. As I'm writing this, she's behind me, smiling and wagging the tail. How can you stay mad at a face like that?

[ejano]

I agree with the baby comment... Scarlet was a bundle of energy when the baby was here, even when he wasn't crying. Scarlet wouldn't settle down. After I had enough of the crying and the energy bundle, I took her to the bedroom, shut the door and started watching TV. She crashed immediately!! So giving her a break when things are overstimulating, sounds like a good idea. Also your rule of thumb, "You must be taller than this border collie to ride this border collie" sounds right on.

About the incident last night at the pet store. The guy who thought he was trying to help WAS a little pushy. Plus he started talking about "What Caesar Milan would do"... But He's NOT Caesar!.... by a long shot! I should have thanked him for participating, and taken her out of the store for a break. I have to learn this may take a while... to get her re-socialized properly. Being a rescue, who knows what conditions she was exposed to. I'm still mad at her, but she probably forgot about the whole ordeal after we got into the car. As I'm writing this, she's behind me, smiling and wagging the tail. How can you stay mad at a face like that?

 

Protect your dog. Avoid letting the situation build up to the point where she is overstimulated. Take her away long before she red-lines. And keep idiotic people away from her. Your insurance company may pay one bite claim but not another....

[Miss Scarlet]

We went to Obedience Training Sunday at the pet store... a different one than where she hit the alarm, nipped and barked at the "Cesar wannabe" on Friday. She was doing great with training, and then a man just walked by, about 5 feet from us, he just looked at Scarlet and said hi... She started barking like nobody's business! He did nothing! Do you think she may have still been kind of trigger-happy about what went on Friday night?

Maybe I should make up a log on the surrounding conditions when she triggers.. Day, night, man, woman, child in a store, at home... the one main thing so far that I've seen is she trigger's on some men... Maybe it's their karma.. or perhaps in this case.. their DOGma!? We went to a dog park Sunday, and she loved it! She met about 5 dogs, and got along with them just fine!

[Laurel962]

A couple of months ago we rescued Miss Scarlet, a 2 year old BC. She's great with us: myself, my wife and my 24 year old daughter (that does not live with us). My brother and his wife came over for a 3 day visit, and she was always barking and nipping at them. When I take her out for a walk, she sometimes lunges and nips at people passing by (usually after they have their backs turned at her). Some people she's good with, and allows a pet and scratch, and for some it's an unexpected jump up and nip. We have her in obedience training now, but I just can't figure her out.

 

When we got her from the shelter, she was only there for a week, yet her fur was worn off of her elbows. She was dehydrated, and a little under weight and submissive. I think she may have been crated a prolonged period of time, not properly socialized as a pup, and perhaps abused by her original owner.

 

 

 

You know I just joined and was looking for a place to ask very similar questions! at least I am not alone. (BTW, Miss Scarlett is a beautiful girl.)

 

I lost my darling BC Sasha in June. She was around 12, as far as we knew, and we'd had her 11 years. Such a sweetheart, loved everyone, very well behaved.

 

We adopted a 5 year old rescue dog, a purebed BC in July. She's had many of the same problems as Scarlett. She lunges and nips without warning or provocation. She also growls in a very menacing way at other dogs (if they are her size or bigger; she is oK with cats and small dogs), and also strange men. She has a very deep, threatening, UNFEMININE growl and it scares people.

 

We've been patient, because we figured there was some abuse (she'd been attacked by other dogs in January, and has scars on her ears from another earlier attack). She is mostly fine with us, and very affectionate.

 

It was a terrible shock to suddenly go from a dog that was super lovable, to a dog that nips and everyone is afraid of. We got a behavioral trainer, and after 3 sessions, she said "I can't help you, this dog has too many issues, you need a behavioral VET" (i.e, a dog psychiatrist). Well, that is crazy expensive, like $700 for an evaluation and $185 an hour after that.....also it is pretty much giving the dog Prozac and Xanax.

 

Nobody can give me a clue how to stop or shut down the growling, let alone nipping. Nipping is BITING, folks and your friends might over look it, but someday a stranger or neighbor WILL SUE YOU over being nipped. I am terrified and heartsick. On advice from several people, we got her a muzzle.

 

So -- in short, you are not alone. And I need the same advice as you, and would love to hear follow up on Miss Scarlett and whats working for you. My problem is likely worse, because my dog DEFINITELY was attacked in the past, and is quite a bit older, so less chance of being able to change her set behaviors.

 

We are really heartsick over this turn. And yes, its true that rescued adult dogs hide their true nature at first (scared, perhaps) and then it comes out in a few weeks or months -- and of course, you are STUCK, you can no longer return them and you are probably attached by then.

[Laurel962]

Protect your dog. Avoid letting the situation build up to the point where she is overstimulated. Take her away long before she red-lines. And keep idiotic people away from her. Your insurance company may pay one bite claim but not another....

 

 

I just had to say -- our new dog is named Ladybug too! never heard that name before, at least not for a BC.

 

I wasn't sure we wanted to keep it, but it is clearly her name and she answered to it, so we did. We figured the poor thing has had a lot of change and loss in her life, so at least her name should be the same.

 

She has a lot of "freckles" or spots, so we figured her original owner named her "Ladybug" because of this.

 

I also wanted to note, you are roughly correct about insurance companies. They vary, but will typically pay ONE bite claim...after that, they will insist you get rid of the dog or they won't insure you AT ALL. No matter the breed OR the circumstances.

 

Many cities or counties will take a dog away from you on the second bite claim (which have to be reported to the County Health Department) and they WILL euthanize such dogs as biters, after a 10 day quarantine for rabies. Imagine your dog in lockup, terrified and alone, then put down by strangers. AWFUL.

 

I had a little mixed breed terrier in the 90s, raised her from a puppy and she was a biter. Not nips. Real bites, drew blood. We tried everything, trainers, classes, behaviorists. She bit a mailman and we got sued, and we lived in terror the rest of her life. I even had plans to run away out of state to try to save her life, I was sure it would happen again, she just bit people and no reason or idea why. No abuse, we raised her from a 9 week old puppy in a very loving home.

 

She died young, kidney failure, unrelated to any of this. Though I grieved her, the relief from not having to worry about bites was HUGE. Then we got our Sasha, our beautiful border collie, and had 11 wonderful years free of any sort of fear.

 

Now I am back in that same "biting fear hell" and I hate hate hate it.

 

I don't know what to do, and I am in anguish about it.

[gcv-border]

...... Maybe I should make up a log on the surrounding conditions when she triggers.. Day, night, man, woman, child in a store, at home.......

 

That may help. I would also include the timing (i.e. how long was your dog in that environment before she triggered?). Maybe she is stressed from the time that she enters the environment, but manages to 'behave' for a while until the stress level builds to a point where she just has to let loose or when the slightest cue sets her off. That same cue may not elicit the same response when she is more relaxed to begin with. <--- just hypothesizing here, but I do know that some cats can have a time period where they tolerate petting (i.e. 30 seconds, or 2 minutes or whatever), then they just swat at you and run away. Other cats loved to be petted for as long as you want. I don't see why a dog could not also have an individual tolerance period before they let loose. If so, it is something that can be worked on.

 

So as others have said -- you have to protect your dog.

 

Jovi

[Miss Scarlet]

We were at the pet store Monday night for our training session. A guy (with a baseball hat) had a wiener dog... a VERY aggressive wiener dog. Personally, I think the guy was high on something, he was not too concerned about keeping his dog from other dogs. Scarlet red-lined real quick, and the rest of the training session wasn't very productive. I took her away from the wiener dog, and calmed her down a bit, but I could still sense her energy. Previous to this event, a different guy (no hat) walked by, and she just sniffed him. After the event, he got an unprovoked quick nip or nose bump on his coat cuff as he passed by. She even nipped at the trainer! (The guy with the high value treats!)

So... in light with what I've observed I've come to a realization that her problem may not be so much fear aggression, but perhaps a case of a lower than normal confidence level. She greets new people in a friendly manner, and about 15-30 seconds into the greet, then she nips. "Hey a new person with a treat! cool! Hey wait a minute.. I don't know this person”... *nip*

It's like if a stranger on the street walked up and wanted to give you a $50 bill, and started talking to you.. The distraction of the $50 and the meaning of it says, hey.. cool!.. you realize this stranger looks a little shady, and you start to feel uncomfortable.

We'll get her into agility training next, and hope that builds some confidence level for her, being around other dogs, and new people.. but the focus will be all about the agility...not so much for the people and the nipping.

Am I onto something?

[gcv-border]

.... She greets new people in a friendly manner, and about 15-30 seconds into the greet, then she nips. "Hey a new person with a treat! cool! Hey wait a minute.. I don't know this person”... *nip*

......

We'll get her into agility training next, and hope that builds some confidence level for her, being around other dogs, and new people.. but the focus will be all about the agility...not so much for the people and the nipping.

Am I onto something?

 

If you feel you have identified a pattern with her behavior (15-30 seconds of tolerance, then a stress reaction), I would not extend her interaction for more than she can tolerate and then start working on extending the time period. For example, when I was working on getting my dog more comfortable with toddlers, I would give the child a treat and let him treat my dog, maybe pet him, then say "Thank you very much" and LEAVE. Use the same approach with your dog. Let the subject treat her, then LEAVE. She needs to know you are not going to push her into uncomfortable situations. After a while, she may tolerate 2 treats from a stranger, then LEAVE. Continue along that same vein, but don't push her too fast.

 

As far as agility goes: it can increase a dog's confidence in their ability to deal with obstacles and work while distractions are present. This may bleed over into an increased confidence with strangers, or may not. Most agility classes do not want dogs to socialize so it doesn't help much there, but if the other handlers in class want to help socialize your dog to people, that can be a big help.

 

Jovi

[rushdoggie]

She greets new people in a friendly manner, and about 15-30 seconds into the greet, then she nips. "Hey a new person with a treat! cool! Hey wait a minute.. I don't know this person”... *nip*

It's like if a stranger on the street walked up and wanted to give you a $50 bill, and started talking to you.. The distraction of the $50 and the meaning of it says, hey.. cool!.. you realize this stranger looks a little shady, and you start to feel uncomfortable.

We'll get her into agility training next, and hope that builds some confidence level for her, being around other dogs, and new people.. but the focus will be all about the agility...not so much for the people and the nipping.

Am I onto something?

 

Yes yes yes.

 

This is something I learned and why I don't advocate having a stranger feed a dog that's nervous for petting. Your $50 bill analogy is perfect. Your dog seeks information but then is unsure of what to do next, and for some reason they don't seem to get that retreating is a choice.

 

"GAH! A stranger is close!"

 

My dog was anxious to check out new people, but once he'd sniffed them, he'd start to feel pressured by being near them. Even if they weren't trying to pet him or interact with him, a stranger standing next to him was enough to make him snark to try to drive them away; he really didn't realize that he could turn away and leave them so he felt trapped. So we taught him a pattern--sniff for a couple of seconds and return to me for a treat. Strangers DO NOT give him treats! Treats come from (nice safe) mommy. This lets him be in control, get the information he wants, and end the interaction. And it's such a pattern now, he just does it without any prompting from me. Sniff, sniff, back to me for a cookie.

 

So start with someone who CAN FOLLOW SIMPLE DIRECTIONS! And have them just stand there. They don't talk to the dog, they don't hold out a hand, they don't pet the dog, they don't offer treats, they just stand still. Take the dog (on leash) up to the person. I don't use a cue, it's all contextual. Let the dog sniff a couple of times, and call him to you and give great treats. IIRC, at the beginning I also stepped back a few steps with my dog, yours may not need the added space. Lather, rinse, repeat. Do this as long as the dog is still interested in checking out the new person, but call the dog back after each few sniffs, so he doesn't have a chance to start feeling trapped or pressured. Don't spend more than a few seconds each time with the stranger. It's very much a pattern for the dog, and the goal is that the dog applies the pattern without any prompting from me.

 

It's all pretty simple. But it helps to practice it a lot with reliable strangers, who won't put any pressure at all on the dog. And who understand that friendly attention can be pressure to some dogs.

[dmadrid]

We were at the pet store Monday night for our training session. A guy (with a baseball hat) had a wiener dog... a VERY aggressive wiener dog. Personally, I think the guy was high on something, he was not too concerned about keeping his dog from other dogs. Scarlet red-lined real quick, and the rest of the training session wasn't very productive. I took her away from the wiener dog, and calmed her down a bit, but I could still sense her energy. Previous to this event, a different guy (no hat) walked by, and she just sniffed him. After the event, he got an unprovoked quick nip or nose bump on his coat cuff as he passed by. She even nipped at the trainer! (The guy with the high value treats!)

So... in light with what I've observed I've come to a realization that her problem may not be so much fear aggression, but perhaps a case of a lower than normal confidence level. She greets new people in a friendly manner, and about 15-30 seconds into the greet, then she nips. "Hey a new person with a treat! cool! Hey wait a minute.. I don't know this person”... *nip*

It's like if a stranger on the street walked up and wanted to give you a $50 bill, and started talking to you.. The distraction of the $50 and the meaning of it says, hey.. cool!.. you realize this stranger looks a little shady, and you start to feel uncomfortable.

We'll get her into agility training next, and hope that builds some confidence level for her, being around other dogs, and new people.. but the focus will be all about the agility...not so much for the people and the nipping.

Am I onto something?

 

 

Miss Scarlet:

 

Two things I can think to say -

1) as others have said, Protect your dog! I know that you want her to be friendly (and safe!) around people, but making a nervous dog meet a lot of people is not necessarily helpful, and could be harmful. She is still so new to you... she needs time to trust that you will keep her safe from scary situations.

 

I would start even slower than you are now. Go places (like your training classes) where there are strangers, but don't have the strangers interact with her. Arm yourself with super high value treats that ONLY come out near strangers. Have her do tricks (for you), or focus on you, or participate in class, but don't stress her out by making her interact. If she does initiate the interaction, keep it short so she remains under threshhold. Example, you have someone feed her a treat, you tell her she's wonderful and WALK AWAY and then give her EVEN MORE TREATS!

 

I know this can be hard... I have a young BC who is the sweetest, smartest pup in the world... and I want people to meet her and see how amazing she is... but she doesn't want to meet strangers. She has a small circle of friends, and she expands it slowly. The BEST THING I've done for her is to STOP having her meet people. It sounds counter-intuitive, but by removing the pressure to meet new people, she's actually gotten better about being around people. Now that she knows that I will protect her and keep strangers from invading her space, she is less worried, and has started initiating interaction more.

 

2) Agility will definitely help you with the people issue, provided you can find a good, positive class. It won't work a miracle, but it will help. There will be people there, but she won't have to interact with them. She'll get used to their presence and start to gain confidence around strangers. She'll start to learn that her instructors are treat dispensers. And the confidence she gains navigating obstacles will bleed over into other areas of her life, too.

[mum24dog]

I may be making a breakthrough with the car chasing... I've been elevating my Alpha-dog status with her, by making her sit and stay when I open the door to the backyard, I go though first and then wait & give her the "OK" command.

 

What you are doing is good but you aren't elevating your "Alpha dog status". You are teaching her consistency and self control.

 

You aren't a dog, you don't look smell or behave like a dog and your dog knows it. Talk of "Alpha" status used to be widespread and is still unfortunately used by some self styled dog "experts" who have managed to get themselves on TV. It isn't common any more amongst people who have actually studied canine behaviour.

 

What you are is the person in control of the resources the dog would like to have and with consistency she will learn that she needs to cooperate with what you want from her to get what she wants.

 

FWIW I think you are doing a great job trying to understand why she behaves as she does and you have had good advice on here. The very worst thing you could do is to force her to confront situations that she is uncomfortable with - that just gets people bitten.

[Miss Scarlet]

We took a short 30 minute walk this morning before I went to work. We had to wait to cross a busy street, and I got down to her level to reassure her that stalking and diving toward cars wasn't a good idea. When a semi went by at 35 MPH, I realized it WAS scary! "Walk a mile in someone else's pads"

...This is all great advice from everyone! I'm glad I've found this resource to throw out my questions and observations!! I'll keep on the slow road to socialization, and we'll get there... eventually!

We just have to realize we've only had her for a few short months, and every day can't be "training day". I wish it could, cause she's an awesome little dog! Thanks for your support, I'll post again soon for updates!

[gcv-border]

We took a short 30 minute walk this morning before I went to work. We had to wait to cross a busy street, and I got down to her level to reassure her that stalking and diving toward cars wasn't a good idea. When a semi went by at 35 MPH, I realized it WAS scary! "Walk a mile in someone else's pads"

...This is all great advice from everyone! I'm glad I've found this resource to throw out my questions and observations!! I'll keep on the slow road to socialization, and we'll get there... eventually!

We just have to realize we've only had her for a few short months, and every day can't be "training day". I wish it could, cause she's an awesome little dog! Thanks for your support, I'll post again soon for updates!

 

Good Luck. It sounds like you will get there with patience and trust.

 

But LOL every day IS training day! Maybe not a formal training 'day', but dogs (particularly BCs) are very observant and are learning all the time. So even though you think you are not 'training', your normal actions and behaviors are effectively training the dog. Scary thought at times.

 

Jovi

[Miss Scarlet]

I just picked up the book, "Love Has No Age Limit, Welcoming an Adopted Dog into your Home", Patricia B. McConnell and Karen B. London... Just by the table of contents, it looks very interesting.

[Sue R]

What Jovi said is true, that every day is training day. What we often don't realize is that "all the time is training time" because we are training not only by what we do but also by what we don't do. And, since dogs (like small children and many adults) learn best in small, easy-to-digest bits, it may well be the little everyday, every moment bits of training that actually make the greatest impression. And, of course, that translates into a mannerly and safe dog at all times and not just in a training context.

 

Meanwhile, I find just about everything by Patricia McConnell to be worthwhile and good advice, so I'm sure you will find a lot of good information in there - and don't forget to read some of her other books and pamphlets. The pamphlets tend to deal with certain topics, and the books cover a wide range of topics, so I'm sure you will find lots of good advice in anything you read that she has written.

 

Another good, short reference booklet is by Turid Rugas, called "Calming Signals". It's all about how dogs reduce stress by certain actions and behaviors, but it also helps you to recognize stress in your dog by observing those (sometimes very subtle) mannerisms.

 

Best wishes!

[Miss Scarlet]

I'm almost finished reading the booklet, "Love Has No Age Limit, Welcoming an Adopted Dog into your Home", and it has some helpful concepts in it. I think the most used word is, "Patience". I'm in it for the long haul with Scarlet. We went on a 2 hour walk in the park both yesterday and today. Yesterday she met ONE person, (female) and she didn't try to nip, and the meeting was at least a minute. Both days, I treat her when people walk, jog or bike past us. Today, she didn't do as well. She wanted to lunge and nip at people just walking by. No eye contact or even a "hi there". Maybe she IS gaining confidence, and I'm too anxious for the time we go out and she loves everybody. One thing that I understood was when we walked past a group of 6 people that were doing so weird exercises like walking on all fours, jumping and moving sideways, and things like that... she barked, and tried to lunge, but I kept her under control because I knew that would freak her out.. I must admit, I thought it was kinda strange, too! We walked into a gaggle of geese, and I SO wanted to let her go and do her thing! She's being real good now.. sleeping after an almost 6 mile walk today!