flanking on drives

[bill virginia]

Want your opinion of square flanking on drive.

1. BC has square flanking on fetching

2. Does not have square flanking on drive.

3. I have tried the following:

a. Behind dog giving command

b. On side calling dog name and then giving command

c. In front giving command

4. None of these methods have worked.

5. Could it be I am giving same command (way to me) when asking dog to fetch as well as asking dog to drive? On fetch I raise my voice on drive I keep tone down?

6. Any help will be appreciated.

[Enya]

does the dog know what driving means - i.e. can he follow the sheep on good distance without wanting to go to the heads ?

 

Have you tried a long lesh helping him positioning for square flanks ?

[juliepoudrier]

Suqare flanks are square flanks, and it shouldn't matter whether the dog is coming (fetching) or going (driving). Without seeing what you've been doing to try to fix the flanks (or exactly how the flanks on the fetch are clearly different from the flanks on the drive), it's nearly impossible to say what you're doing wrong or how you might make things right.

 

I don't change the tone of my voice or whistle between flanking on the fetch or drive (if that's what you're asking). Away means away, no matter where I am relative to the dog. To the dog, away should mean one thing specifically relative to the livestock.

 

I suppose it's possible that your dog has come to rely on your presence/pressure to make the flanks correct on the fetch, and since you can't influence the dog in the same way when it's driving it then cheats on its flanks, but again, it's tough to say without really seeing what's going on.

 

J.

[bill virginia]

Suqare flanks are square flanks, and it shouldn't matter whether the dog is coming (fetching) or going (driving). Without seeing what you've been doing to try to fix the flanks (or exactly how the flanks on the fetch are clearly different from the flanks on the drive), it's nearly impossible to say what you're doing wrong or how you might make things right.

 

I don't change the tone of my voice or whistle between flanking on the fetch or drive (if that's what you're asking). Away means away, no matter where I am relative to the dog. To the dog, away should mean one thing specifically relative to the livestock.

 

I suppose it's possible that your dog has come to rely on your presence/pressure to make the flanks correct on the fetch, and since you can't influence the dog in the same way when it's driving it then cheats on its flanks, but again, it's tough to say without really seeing what's going on.

 

J.

 

 

 

interesting observation

 

"I suppose it's possible that your dog has come to rely on your presence/pressure to make the flanks correct on the fetch, and since you can't influence the dog in the same way when it's driving it then cheats on its flanks",

[Amelia]

Hello all,

I've seen many folks struggle with this, and what they seem to be missing is the necessity of a correction when the dog flanks incorrectly. It's not enough to try different positioning, call the dog to you before the flank, etc. If you never let the dog know that he's done something incorrectly, you'll never be able to fix it.

 

This assumes you've taught your dog how to flank properly in the first place, and if not, that's another topic. Notice that I didn't say "taught your dog to flank squarely in the first place." Not all dogs need to be squared up if they are flanking efficiently without chousing their sheep. Another consideration is the type of sheep you're training on. Heavy and dog broke might need some slicing, light and running may not. The trick is knowing which dogs are doing what to what kind of sheep. Practice on different sheep before you call you dog's flanks bad. Or, buy some really light hair sheep and you'll be able to see straight off whether doggie is flanking properly.

 

So, with that caveat, here goes;

 

I ask my dog to drive, and when I give the flank off the drive, I stop him immediately if it is not a free flank. In other words if he upsets the sheep. Never wanting to use the down as a correction, I say "lie down" nicely enough, then walk in between the dog and his sheep and kick him out. I use "get back" and I make sure he doesn't start a flank, but turns tail and walks straight away from his sheep. The intention with which I do this is entirely dependent on the dog, anywhere from quietly to something with some teeth in it, and that finesse doesn't translate well in E-training discussions.

 

Quality inside flanks are hard for some dogs, because they are flanking into the pressure of your body, which does nothing for them, and may be scary. Much more fun to flank into the pressure of the sheep and react!

 

The main thing that I'm suggesting is not to believe that re-positioning yourself or the dog after a slice off the drive is going to help you. You have to let the dog know it was wrong, so that it can think about how to be right.

 

Good luck with it.

[Maja]

Amelia,

 

I don't have a problem with flanking on drive, but your post was very illuminating for me. Thank you!

 

Maja

[MyTDogs]

I have all kinds of problems driving- but we are getting better. I found Amelia's post to be extremely helpful too. Thanks!

 

Amelia,

 

I don't have a problem with flanking on drive, but your post was very illuminating for me. Thank you!

 

Maja

[bill virginia]

Hello all,

I've seen many folks struggle with this, and what they seem to be missing is the necessity of a correction when the dog flanks incorrectly. It's not enough to try different positioning, call the dog to you before the flank, etc. If you never let the dog know that he's done something incorrectly, you'll never be able to fix it.

 

This assumes you've taught your dog how to flank properly in the first place, and if not, that's another topic. Notice that I didn't say "taught your dog to flank squarely in the first place." Not all dogs need to be squared up if they are flanking efficiently without chousing their sheep. Another consideration is the type of sheep you're training on. Heavy and dog broke might need some slicing, light and running may not. The trick is knowing which dogs are doing what to what kind of sheep. Practice on different sheep before you call you dog's flanks bad. Or, buy some really light hair sheep and you'll be able to see straight off whether doggie is flanking properly.

 

So, with that caveat, here goes;

 

I ask my dog to drive, and when I give the flank off the drive, I stop him immediately if it is not a free flank. In other words if he upsets the sheep. Never wanting to use the down as a correction, I say "lie down" nicely enough, then walk in between the dog and his sheep and kick him out. I use "get back" and I make sure he doesn't start a flank, but turns tail and walks straight away from his sheep. The intention with which I do this is entirely dependent on the dog, anywhere from quietly to something with some teeth in it, and that finesse doesn't translate well in E-training discussions.

 

Quality inside flanks are hard for some dogs, because they are flanking into the pressure of your body, which does nothing for them, and may be scary. Much more fun to flank into the pressure of the sheep and react!

 

The main thing that I'm suggesting is not to believe that re-positioning yourself or the dog after a slice off the drive is going to help you. You have to let the dog know it was wrong, so that it can think about how to be right.

 

Good luck with it.

 

 

 

 

Your experience with Indie is similar to mine with Zac. You were kind enough to reply to my question on flanking on drives, I thought I would relate my story about Zac. Zac was found running wild with substantial amount of burn marks around his neck. Once again the vicious act of a despicable individual. The pound contacted a service group and told them they were going to put him to sleep in one hour and if they wanted him to come down immediately. Service work is not what God made him to do.

When Zac came here he had uncontrollable diarrhea and very serious personal problems.

Many happy moments in my life have been spent in the company of a dog. When you look into a dog’s eyes you see love, for they wag their tails with their hearts. If you listen they will teach you patience, logic and love.

A special bond develops between a man/woman and a working dog. You take the raw natural ability of the dog and mold it into a working partnership. It takes hard work and commitment on the part of a man/woman and dog.

So the next time you hear someone say, “Oh that‘s just a dog”, smile because they just don’t understand. To them, he is a just a dog, but to me he is my adopted son who happens to be short, hairy, walks on all fours and does not speak too clearly. Zac joined my two other rescue border collies.

[TEC]

Want your opinion of square flanking on drive.

Any help will be appreciated.

 

The question was posted some time ago, so you may have corrected your dog's drive flanks by now. Hope so. The above advice is good. My suggestion is based on only the circumstance of flanking the dog to make a turn, a big change in direction, say 30-90 degrees. Small adjustments in line are not addressed.

 

In my experience a dog will tend to cut-in on the drive-flank when, for any number of reasons, the dog is near the packet. Sometimes when the sheep are heavy, or when you are driving away from a draw, a dog will necessarily have to push hard, and not always from a nice distance. In the event this occurs, I recommend a down/stop to separate the sheep and dog. If the sheep are really heavy or strongly drawn to their rear, they may stop/slow as the dog downs, making the separation difficult to obtain. Nevertheless, try to get some distance. Once the dog is off the sheep appropriately, give a command for a w-i-d-e flank. I give the flanking command in the nearly same manner I would issue it to have my dog fetch the packet back to me. The difference being that when she is at the proper point on the flank to get the desired turn, she is downed/stopped, and asked to walk-up. My command to fetch the sheep back is given in a drawn-out manner...Awwaaayyyy-tooo-meeeee, Cooommme-byyeeee. For me, giving the flank command in this way, gets a wide squared one, so that my dog is off the sheep appropriately at the point she is in the correct position to make the turn.

 

Hope the above helps. Don't hesitate to contact me privately if you want further clarification. -- Best Wishes, TEC

[bill virginia]

The question was posted some time ago, so you may have corrected your dog's drive flanks by now. Hope so. The above advice is good. My suggestion is based on only the circumstance of flanking the dog to make a turn, a big change in direction, say 30-90 degrees. Small adjustments in line are not addressed.

 

In my experience a dog will tend to cut-in on the drive-flank when, for any number of reasons, the dog is near the packet. Sometimes when the sheep are heavy, or when you are driving away from a draw, a dog will necessarily have to push hard, and not always from a nice distance. In the event this occurs, I recommend a down/stop to separate the sheep and dog. If the sheep are really heavy or strongly drawn to their rear, they may stop/slow as the dog downs, making the separation difficult to obtain. Nevertheless, try to get some distance. Once the dog is off the sheep appropriately, give a command for a w-i-d-e flank. I give the flanking command in the nearly same manner I would issue it to have my dog fetch the packet back to me. The difference being that when she is at the proper point on the flank to get the desired turn, she is downed/stopped, and asked to walk-up. My command to fetch the sheep back is given in a drawn-out manner...Awwaaayyyy-tooo-meeeee, Cooommme-byyeeee. For me, giving the flank command in this way, gets a wide squared one, so that my dog is off the sheep appropriately at the point she is in the correct position to make the turn.

 

Hope the above helps. Don't hesitate to contact me privately if you want further clarification. -- Best Wishes, TEC

 

 

interesting flanking command.....i tried it and down the dog. it worked well. thanks for the help. bill