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vaccinations prior to neutering


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This issue came up when I called to make an appointment to neuter my 2 yr, 9 mo male:

 

Vet receptionist told me that my dog is not up to date on his distemper or bordatella vax, and that I would have to get them updated before bringing him in to be neutered. I replied that I followed minimal vaccination protocol for my dogs. The receptionist was good and said that she would speak with the vet.

 

The vet has been fine with me not vaccinating every year. [she has been his vet since he was a pup and knows that he has had both his puppy and 1 year vax for distemper, etc.] The answer came back that she was fine with not requiring a booster distemper vax, but she did want me to get the bordatella vax at least a week before bringing him in for neutering.

 

I assume this is not unusual in this day and age, but wanted to know how prevalent. i.e. is this a new precaution that vets are requiring? I know that bordatella is quite contagious and understand her caution, but I feel that this is a bit overboard - or am I wrong? Should I look for another vet to perform the surgery if I don't want to vax for bordatella? Would another vet require the same?

 

I guess that this begs the question of the importance of the bordatella vax. I am not strongly opposed to updating his bordatella since he does go to dog gatherings (herding trials, agility trials and clinics), but my older dog is quite well 'traveled' too, does not have a bordatella vax, and has never had an issue.

 

Thanks for your thoughts.

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The vet I use for spay/neuter only requires an up to date rabies vaccine. Many vets require distemper and kennel cough for their own interests. Just like boarding facilities-they have to think of the other dogs in the facility they care for and their owners. They certainly want to protect the masses that come in, and I understand that fully.

 

The low cost clinic near me does not require it either, as they vaccinate (rabies and distemper) at the same time as neutering/spaying (it is all included if you qualify for their services).

 

I personally would not want to spend the office fee ($42 at my vet) plus the cost of the vaccine just so I can come back a week later and spend a few hundred dollars on the neuter. I doubt that a vet who requires the vaccine would accept the receipt from Tractor Supply if you bought the kennel cough vaccine and administered it yourself. But I am frugal and willingly drive over an hour one way to a different vet for all of our pet surgery needs.

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The only vaccine required by law in the US is rabies. I suppose vets may require other vaccines for people who want to bring their pets to them, but if one did I'd leave the practice and tell them why.

 

Kennel cough isn't usually a deadly or even major disease in most healthy dogs. It's generally a a mild self-limiting disease, similar to a human cold.

 

Vaccination researcher Dr. Ronald Schultz doesn't even consider kennel cough a vaccine preventable disease because of other factors that contribute to it.

 

It should be your choice.

 

If it were mine, I'd choose to switch vets.

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I would not dare take my pet to a groomer, boarding facility or animal hospital that only required a rabies vaccine. Why? Because that's where I see all my client's dogs get infected with parvo, distemper, kennel cough, etc. If it's not required, most people don't bother (and these are NOT the type of clients who titer to make sure their pets have immunity).

 

Kennel cough itself is rarely more than an annoyance. I only see little pups, immune suppressed and the elderly get really sick from it. Most vets require kennel cough not so much to protect your individual dog so much as to prevent an outbreak in the clinic population. People get ANGRY when they take their pet in for a procedure and it comes home with kennel cough, fleas, etc.

 

Could you find out if there is a Bordetella titer?

 

Worst case scenario, I would personally rather do surgery with a vet I trusted and just get the kennel cough vaccine done than go somewhere else. Oral and intranasal kennel cough are pretty benign by vaccine standards.

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I don't know of any vets in the UK who lay down such stipulations. Maybe we don't have such a culture of suing at the drop of a hat. I don't hear of anyone's dog catching it from being in the vets either.

 

Do vets refuse to treat emergencies if they don't comply with their vaccination rules?

 

My dogs are vaccinated as per current protocols but I don't bother with the separate kennel cough vaccine because ime it's a waste of money for most dogs. I even have dispensation from my local kennels not to have to do it on condition that if they catch it and their premises are suspected to be the source I won't claim vet bills on their insurance. That's fine by me and I probably wouldn't be going to the vet anyway even if they did catch it.

 

They mix with hundreds of dogs on a regular basis and have been through epidemics and yet it must be 15 years since any of them contracted it, and even then it was a new rescue with a compromised immune system that brought it in and it was the one and only time my dogs had had the vaccine.

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I would also opt for more than a week between the vaccination and surgery. Probably 2-3 weeks.

 

Yes! I forgot to add this. If you do opt for the vaccine, I would also suggest asking for some time between the vax and the surgery I even choose to have some time in between vaccines as well.

 

Vaccines are arguably an assault on the immune system, and surgery certainly stresses the body. I wouldn't want to increase stressors at the same time.

 

If the reason for doing the vexes is so that the dog doesn't catch the diseases when it comes in for surgery, one would think the vet would agree, wanting to make sure immunity is firmly established before bringing the dog in for surgery.

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At least the vet said vaccinate and wait. In the past I've had them take the dog in for surgery and vaccinate without asking, as if a vaccination the day of is going to actually afford any immunity.

 

That said, I can't speak to the veracity of Liz's experience, but I have never vaccinated my dogs for bordatella and they've been infected just once in the nearly 20 years I've had dogs, and that was thanks to someone bringing an infected dog to a sheepdog trial. I don't use groomers or boarding kennels, but there is a kennel on this property and there certainly isn't any issue with bordatella, parvo, or distemper here.

 

I would have a serious talk with my vet, and if it couldn't be resolved to my satisfaction, I'd start looking for another vet. If your vet knows you, then s/he also knows that you take care of your dogs and the risk of them being ill and infecting another client's pet is probably slim to none. I am capable of making considered and informed decisions about the vaccines (and other care) my pets get and blanket mandates aren't going to make me a happy client.

 

J.

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I would not dare take my pet to a groomer, boarding facility or animal hospital that only required a rabies vaccine. Why? Because that's where I see all my client's dogs get infected with parvo, distemper, kennel cough, etc. If it's not required, most people don't bother (and these are NOT the type of clients who titer to make sure their pets have immunity).

 

Are you talking about totally unvaccinated dogs, or dogs that have received all the puppy shots but none thereafter?

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"Are you talking about totally unvaccinated dogs, or dogs that have received all the puppy shots but none thereafter?"

 

Both. Despite the claims of the some of the holistic dog magazines, immunity does not appear to last a lifetime in all dogs. I also think some of the dogs vaccinated as pups did not follow an appropriate schedule. Example, they stopped vaccinating at 12 or 14 weeks instead of 16, they waited too long between boosters.

 

I am not too worried personally about kennel cough, aside from the angry owner aspect. You have no idea how unreasonable some people can be. One lady, whose dog was not on flea/tick control, called us screaming because her dog had fleas not long after coming into the clinic for vaccines. We've had owners claim their pets got kennel cough from coming into the clinic for vaccines and being exposed to other pets in the waiting room (if they are sick, we don't let them wait in the lobby, but if owners don't tell us, we don't know). They then want us to pay for treatment. Maybe they did get exposed at our hospital, but we do everything in our power to prevent it and can't be held responsible.

 

Would you ask your doctor to cover the cost of treatment if you got the flu from someone in their waiting room? The behavior of people in vet hospital waiting rooms actually amazes me at times. They want fluffy to run up and greet every other dog there. They don't stop and think that some of those pets are there because they are sick and mingling might not be a good idea.

 

Julie, I am sure opinions will vary among vets depending on where they practice and their experiences. I happen to have worked near several huge low cost clinics with practices that were questionable at best. I've also worked near multiple kennels and groomers that require nothing more than rabies.

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This topic of vaccinations is interesting to me.

 

As people, we don't take them for ourselves in our house but want to do what is right for our dogs to keep them healthy.

 

Bear has an appointment next week and shots are on the vet's agenda.

 

Parvo, distemper, etc.

 

Rabies are required and I would do that due to the prevalence of that disease.

 

What is absolutely necessary to keep a dog healthy.

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Jovi, at this point I'm not going to try to influence your decision one way or another.

 

But if you'd rather not have the vaccines and want to stay with your current vet, could you offer to sign a waiver acknowledging the risk and agreeing not to hold them responsible if your dog contracts those particular diseases within a specified amount of time after the surgery?

 

Just a thought. Again, your decision and your choice to make.

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It's not necessarily just a matter of "can my dog catch a disease at the vet office" but also a matter of "can my dog expose other dogs to a disease at the vet office" that is a concern that might prompt a practice to require what they consider to be their standard of "current" vaccinations (or titers) before accepting that animal into their facility for surgery, boarding, etc.

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Riika, my personal preference for vaccine protocol is...

 

8 weeks DAPPV and Bordetella

12 weeks DAPPV, lepto if at risk (farm dog, hunting dog, etc)

16 weeks DAPPV, lepto if at risk

18 weeks rabies

20 weeks Lyme if at risk

23 weeks Lyme if at risk

 

1 year old DAPPV, rabies, lepto and Lyme if at risk, separated into 2 visits so the dog gets no more than 2 injections per visit.

 

Rabies every 3 years as required by law. Would love to go longer if we can get the laws changed.

 

DAPPV every 3 to 5 years unless the owner wants to titer, in which case I am happy to go longer. Sometimes you can't get beyond every 3 years without local boarding kennels, groomers, etc throwing a fit. I've treated parvo and distemper in dogs that were 8, 9 and 10 years post DAPPV, so I don't believe that lifelong immunity is real for all dogs. We also have to remember that some dogs will be non responders; they will not mount protective immunity after a vaccine.

 

Lyme and lepto always stay one year vaccines unless the owner is willing to titer. They are both bacterial diseases and for some dogs immunity doesn't even last a year (per titers and studies I've seen done).

 

Bordetella in adult dogs only if required by the groomer, kennel, etc or if at high risk for some reason.

 

Flu is rare for me to recommend. I've only given that vaccine to dogs because there was an outbreak. Might be something the greyhound track dogs should get regularly, but they do their own vaccines except for rabies so I don't get the chance to talk to them about it.

 

This is not a one size fits all protocol. I won't give vaccines to dogs with autoimmune diseases. If they have a terminal illness I don't recommend them. If they have a reaction we weight the risks vs benefits of the vaccine vs possibly getting the disease. I listen to my clients and work out a plan to fit their dogs. I know not all vets are like that. Many still give annual rabies, DAPPV, etc to all dogs.

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Sue R- that's a really good point. To expand on it with a personal note- I have a dog who has only one functioning lung, elderly, etc. It's really given me a different perspective on it. Vets have to think about that kind of dog too, or how to keep the young unvaccinated pup, or the immunocompromised dog, or whatever, safe from my one-lung dog, as well as keeping my one-lung dog safe from what it might catch there.

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I have literally never been to a vet(and I have used quite a few different ones for surgeries) that required any kind of vaccines prior to a surgery, the concept is very odd to me! to be honest I would probably just go to a different clinic for the surgery if I ran into that lol. the only vaccine Sola had ever had when she was spayed at 1 year was a single Parvo at 4 months old and not a single word was said about it. Paisley had a teeth done at a clinic I had never been too before, they did ask about her vaccinations...like if she was UTD and if not did I want them updated.. I said nope, she was good till later this year and my usual vet clinic and no I do not want her vaccinated anywhere near a surgical procedure. they obviously did not check up on that because I found out a few months later when I took her for her Rabies at a different clinic(could not get in to my usual soon enough) that my usual clinic never even received her vet records from the rescue, which were supposed to have been transferred over 3 years ago, so they must not have actually cared that much,and it was just a formality selling point type question.

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I have never heard of a vet requiring vaccination of any kind prior to surgery. I have never been asked about vaccinations, at all. I do not do regular boosters for any of my dogs, although I do get the rabies vaccine. The only exception is if I am taking in foster dogs, I always make sure my dogs are up to date with the bordatella vaccine because so many of the foster dogs come from shelters where they picked up kennel cough, and I don't want my dogs getting sick all the time.

 

I think if a vet asked me to do it I would, because I would figure that the bordatella vaccine is unlikely to be harmful, it is not expensive, and the vet probably has a good reason to ask for it. But if I felt opposed to it for my dog for any reason, I would simply take him or her to a different vet.

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I will be changing to another vet for the neuter operation. I have had my eye on this vet for a while as I have heard many positive reviews of his practice from my 'dog friends' in the area. He mixes traditional medicine with holistic, and supports a minimal vaccination schedule. And he does not require a bordatella vax for the surgery, but will require a fecal.

 

I appreciate that my current vet has been flexible enough to work with me on minimal vax, but she - and the techs and receptionists still keep pushing them - even though I keep saying I want to follow a minimal vax protocol. It gets very tiring to repeat myself every time I talk to them.

 

I understand that a bordatella can be protective for both my dog and the dogs at the clinic (if one were to be contagious), but having said that, this vet takes in a lot of rescue dogs for treatment and boarding. From my point of view, my dogs are more at risk when visiting this vet. I do not know why she wants dogs to have a bordatella vaccine pre-surgery, but I am not going to ask her to rationalize her practice, I will just take my $$ elsewhere.

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Regarding the animals in the lobby at a vet practice: every place I've ever worked had asked people with coughing dogs to keep them in the car and the vet goes to them. Likewise with dogs that might be exhibiting symptoms of parvo or similar. Of course not all people are honest (or know enough to recognize symptoms and relay that info to the vet) about what's going on with their pet, so taking your pet to the vet can risk exposure. That said, if you're concerned about such things, you could leave your pet in the car until it's called in to be seen.

 

To turn the example about going to the doctor's office around, I don't get myself vaccinated yearly or on some other schedule for fear of what I might be exposed to if I have to go to the doctor; I take reasonable precautions to prevent exposure if I must go. I do the same with my pets.

 

Too many vets, in my opinion, use the "fear factor" to talk people into giving vaccines more often than is likely necessary. That is, they tell the horror stories to make owners feel they're bad owners if they don't vaccinate according to the vet's protocol instead of having an actual discussion with the owners discussing the pros and cons for each individual's needs and situation. Of course the former approach gets the job done more quickly, but I don't think it's always in the best interests of the pet and owner. Just my opinion.

 

J.

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Regarding the animals in the lobby at a vet practice: every place I've ever worked had asked people with coughing dogs to keep them in the car and the vet goes to them. Likewise with dogs that might be exhibiting symptoms of parvo or similar. Of course not all people are honest (or know enough to recognize symptoms and relay that info to the vet) about what's going on with their pet, so taking your pet to the vet can risk exposure. That said, if you're concerned about such things, you could leave your pet in the car until it's called in to be seen.

 

To turn the example about going to the doctor's office around, I don't get myself vaccinated yearly or on some other schedule for fear of what I might be exposed to if I have to go to the doctor; I take reasonable precautions to prevent exposure if I must go. I do the same with my pets.

 

Too many vets, in my opinion, use the "fear factor" to talk people into giving vaccines more often than is likely necessary. That is, they tell the horror stories to make owners feel they're bad owners if they don't vaccinate according to the vet's protocol instead of having an actual discussion with the owners discussing the pros and cons for each individual's needs and situation. Of course the former approach gets the job done more quickly, but I don't think it's always in the best interests of the pet and owner. Just my opinion.

 

J.

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