gcv-border Posted November 6, 2015 Report Share Posted November 6, 2015 I like both too! And I agree about the fact that judging a herding trial can be more subjective (and yes, I know there rules WRT how many points are taken off for various 'infractions' but there are still nuances, as you point out) than judging an agility trial, which is more physically taxing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted November 6, 2015 Report Share Posted November 6, 2015 judging an agility trial, which is more physically taxing. I dunno. I think judging a stockdog trial can be physically pretty taxing. Imagine sitting under usually at best a canopy in either very hot or very cold, wet, miserable weather and having to be alert to every movement on the field for upwards of 15-16 hours (some summer trials run from first to last light). I'd be more than exhausted after that, even in my younger, fitter days. More than once I've seen judges take their lunches or even dinners in their judging positions as runs continue without break for meals. Then multiply this by 3 or 4 days straight, before which they may have had to travel quite a ways to get there. Think of it the way we tell people that mental exercise can be more tiring to their dogs than physical exercise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald McCaig Posted November 6, 2015 Report Share Posted November 6, 2015 Dear Doggers, Very few SDT judges want to party afterwards. Donald McCaig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted November 6, 2015 Report Share Posted November 6, 2015 I dunno. I think judging a stockdog trial can be physically pretty taxing. Imagine sitting under usually at best a canopy in either very hot or very cold, wet, miserable weather and having to be alert to every movement on the field for upwards of 15-16 hours (some summer trials run from first to last light). I'd be more than exhausted after that, even in my younger, fitter days. More than once I've seen judges take their lunches or even dinners in their judging positions as runs continue without break for meals. Then multiply this by 3 or 4 days straight, before which they may have had to travel quite a ways to get there. Think of it the way we tell people that mental exercise can be more tiring to their dogs than physical exercise. Right back at ya. I don't want this to degenerate into a tit-for-tat. I get what you are saying - but judging in both venues can climb up into the double digits for hours, weather is a consideration for both venues since agility trials can be held outside in the cold, wet rain too - without a canopy for the judge. And the bigger agility trials can also run for 3-4 days with the same judge(s). Same for travel. It is the norm that a judge will have to tack on a day, both before and after a trial, for travel. I don't see many differences. I am wondering how many herding judges would be able to stand (and move at times) throughout a long day of judging. I know as all of us become more "mature" (I am not seeing many judges in their 20s and 30s.) that the knees and hips and backs and necks can start acting up enough to prevent such physical activity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted November 6, 2015 Report Share Posted November 6, 2015 I do not judge sheep trials often, but have done it enough. And I have also spent a fair amount of time scoring cattle trials. I tend to do both standing because I can see better, often needing to move at least several feet, during each run, to watch a particular part of the run. And I am not young, but I get it done A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalahundur Posted November 7, 2015 Report Share Posted November 7, 2015 I am not a judge (so who am I to judge, hahahaa... ehm sorry), but I think it is a bit dramatic to make this judging task out to be a kind of torturing experience. It is a volunteer job,nobody is forcing someone to do it.You are doing something you have a big interest in, with people who share that interest. What is there not to like? I am not saying it is not a difficult task (I have no doubt it is), and I do believe it can be something that will tire you over the course of a day, but is that so bad? The activities I find most gratifying are usually the ones that leave you tired (or exhausted) after completion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted November 7, 2015 Report Share Posted November 7, 2015 I am not a judge (so who am I to judge, hahahaa... ehm sorry), but I think it is a bit dramatic to make this judging task out to be a kind of torturing experience. It is a volunteer job,nobody is forcing someone to do it.You are doing something you have a big interest in, with people who share that interest. What is there not to like? I am not saying it is not a difficult task (I have no doubt it is), and I do believe it can be something that will tire you over the course of a day, but is that so bad? The activities I find most gratifying are usually the ones that leave you tired (or exhausted) after completion. I didn't think that anyone indicated that it was a tortuous experience.I certainly didn't mean to suggest that. Difficult, wearing - definitely, but not painful/tortuous. Judges are paid in this country, yet I believe that many/all judges wouldn't judge if they weren't passionate about herding and trials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted November 8, 2015 Report Share Posted November 8, 2015 At Montpelier last year the judge, who is in his 80s, stood the entire day. SDT judges do move around a fair amount, often to get a better view of the lines. Maybe a better way to have phrased it or asked the question (and I guess I should have followed my first inclination in my original post and asked that this not turn into a pissing contest) would have been to ask Pam what inspires agility judges to volunteer, since she said she gets lots of volunteers and seemed completely surprised that we would pay SDT judges over here. I was simply pointing out why we think a paid judge is worth the price. I don't know enough about agility to have an opinion about what it means to judge an agility trial. I do, however, believe that in agility there still isn't the nuance that occurs at a sheepdog trial. After all, a judge in the former (and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong) doesn't have to judge how many points to take off for a turn at the post or a panel that's a little too wide so as to leave room for the competitor who has tighter turns while also giving greater penalty to the competitor who might have an even slightly *wider* turn. In other words, the judge isn't just judging the one who is on the field, but also makes sure that his/her judgment for that one also places that one in the correct rank order against all the others running. I thought that in agility placements depended on clean runs and time to a large degree, so more like a points and time trial vs. a fully judged trial. But as I said, my questions and comments weren't an attempt to say that judges at agility trials don't have a difficult job, but rather to point out WHY we prefer to pay SDT judges, especially if we want good judging. Okay, now you can go back to the "my job is more difficult than yours" argument. Maybe Pam will return and answer my question regarding why she has scads of folks eager to volunteer to judge at agility trials, since we seem to have the exact opposite issue at stock dog trials. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted November 8, 2015 Report Share Posted November 8, 2015 I nether expected nor intended my comments to be become a pissing contest, either (and that's why I didn't add another tit to the tat), just an agreement with what Julie had said and a counter to someone's saying that agility judging was harder because the judges have to move. I still think it's largely comparing apples and watermelons, with a bit more nuance to one perhaps and with neither being the superior fruit, just different. I guess I should have kept my fingers still though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted November 8, 2015 Report Share Posted November 8, 2015 I nether expected nor intended my comments to be become a pissing contest, either (and that's why I didn't add another tit to the tat), just an agreement with what Julie had said and a counter to someone's saying that agility judging was harder because the judges have to move. I still think it's largely comparing apples and watermelons, with a bit more nuance to one perhaps and with neither being the superior fruit, just different. I guess I should have kept my fingers still though. Since I am that 'someone' (I don't mind if you say my name), I will close with saying that first, I never disagreed with the fact that the judging at a herding trial is more nuanced. I definitely agree it is. The physical part seems to be the prickly point here. I guess I haven't been to enough SDTs (only about 40-50), but the ones I have attended did not have a very 'mobile' judge(s) so I am going off of that impression. Depending on the course, I have seen the judge pop up from his/her seat to make sure that they can clearly see a certain part of the course, or they may get up to stretch their legs - for which I can certainly sympathize. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted November 8, 2015 Report Share Posted November 8, 2015 No idea if UK trial judges get paid but most dog activity judges don't here. They are likely to get expenses and maybe a moderate thank you gift. Different culture obviously. I have more than the 60 we need for next year who have volunteered and they too spend long days judging in all sorts of weather. I suppose payment and an activity where marking is to an extent a matter of opinion are bound to lead to allegations of irregularities. Bias is hard to prove though even if blatant. I'm not sure how judges ended up getting paid over here, but I don't begrudge them the money. They may drive or fly from several states away or another part of the US entirely, unless a trial is just lucky and has a local person to judge. Plus their motels and meals. But mainly I am happy to pay for the time of anyone who can watch 50 to 60 +/- runs a day for two if not three days, and keep not only stay fully focused for all those runs but maintain a standard in their heads throughout. the weekend. It likely is a cultural thing, though. I've seen judging that I felt was a little inconsistent and I know of judges whom I think like to use the pen a little heavily, but while the former irks me, the latter does not, so long as they are tough on everybody. I've heard of accusations of favoritism by judges, though, and I think if someone gets that kind of reputation, they probably aren't asked to judge a lot of trials. I would wonder if most irregularities would be more apt to happen at small local trials where not a lot of "big hats" come and more novice type people might not know better. But I've no real idea or mental census of such things. ~ Gloria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted November 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2015 To the question about agility judging vs SDT judging. Think of agility more like time and point trials. The judge does have to do more standing and walking but the dog either does the obstacle correctly or doesn't In a time/point trial, the dog either does the obstacle correctly or doesn't. Both are timed. The SDT usually has a time limit. I don't think agility does, but if it takes too long the dog could be excused. The STC does require a greater knowledge (at least in order to be competent) and IMO the judge should know the behavior of the stock and recognize the behaviours which may be caused by the dog or which may simply be the stock. The knowledge that stock CAN behave certain ways when the dog is making errors even if the judge cannot see the dog, leave the benefit of doubt when necessary. This is a true judge, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thad Posted February 29, 2016 Report Share Posted February 29, 2016 judges would never cheat. who would think such a thing. And if a judge did sway the rules a tiny bit one way or the other, there is protocol to follow in filing a dispute. just saying :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airbear Posted February 29, 2016 Report Share Posted February 29, 2016 judges would never cheat. who would think such a thing. And if a judge did sway the rules a tiny bit one way or the other, there is protocol to follow in filing a dispute. just saying :rolleyes: LOL!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted March 2, 2016 Report Share Posted March 2, 2016 At Montpelier last year the judge, who is in his 80s, stood the entire day. SDT judges do move around a fair amount, often to get a better view of the lines. Maybe a better way to have phrased it or asked the question (and I guess I should have followed my first inclination in my original post and asked that this not turn into a pissing contest) would have been to ask Pam what inspires agility judges to volunteer, since she said she gets lots of volunteers and seemed completely surprised that we would pay SDT judges over here. I was simply pointing out why we think a paid judge is worth the price. I don't know enough about agility to have an opinion about what it means to judge an agility trial. I do, however, believe that in agility there still isn't the nuance that occurs at a sheepdog trial. After all, a judge in the former (and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong) doesn't have to judge how many points to take off for a turn at the post or a panel that's a little too wide so as to leave room for the competitor who has tighter turns while also giving greater penalty to the competitor who might have an even slightly *wider* turn. In other words, the judge isn't just judging the one who is on the field, but also makes sure that his/her judgment for that one also places that one in the correct rank order against all the others running. I thought that in agility placements depended on clean runs and time to a large degree, so more like a points and time trial vs. a fully judged trial. But as I said, my questions and comments weren't an attempt to say that judges at agility trials don't have a difficult job, but rather to point out WHY we prefer to pay SDT judges, especially if we want good judging. Okay, now you can go back to the "my job is more difficult than yours" argument. Maybe Pam will return and answer my question regarding why she has scads of folks eager to volunteer to judge at agility trials, since we seem to have the exact opposite issue at stock dog trials. J. Very late coming back to this but there can be various reasons why people offer to judge in agility here - People want the expenses to help cover the cost of competing in their hobby. They can judge one day, compete the next. Camping might be in great demand and judging ensures a pitch. They may want a priority pitch that means less walking to ad from the rings. For a long show like ours (10 days) hey may want a holiday. They may have been intending to go to the show anyway. They want to give something back to the sport. They may just enjoy it. Obedience struggles to get judges though and I'm told it's not easy to get sheepdog trial judges because people want to run their dogs. Also I expect the drop in numbers of the traditional type of handler in favour of an influx of hobbyists will reduce the number of available judges. I have asked if SDT judges get paid and the answer was no. What was actually said was "They may get a tenner towards their petrol." I would expect expenses to be more generous at big trials. I guess it boils down to incentive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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