Some Stockdog and Behavioral Questions

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First, I would like to know, are there “cattle-bred” Border Collies? Or do you simply breed for good workers and choose from those he best suited to work cattle? (Or is it both?)

 

Second question is about the experience of stock-doggers with a dog which is over-zealous about gripping. Do you find that such a dog is more likely to resent unwanted attention or rude behavior from canine or human strangers by air-snapping, nipping or biting?

 

Third is an observation of my dog and questions that arise from it.

 

My dog has never been to sheep. She is a pet. Her favorite recreational activities are Frisbee and ball-play. I have noticed that when we are returning home from a session of Frisbee or ball, my dog takes a while to ramp down, mentally, from such play. I would characterize her as a dog with high prey-drive. Sometimes when we are walking home we will encounter a person walking the other way. For reasons known only to herself, sometimes Sugarfoot will slip over to stand in front of the person, staring fixedly at their knee-caps, head down, tail down, ears forward. This is not a greeting.

 

Usually the person will stop – sometime to greet the dog, sometimes with trepidation about the dog’s intentions. Sugarfoot has gone as far as to bump the person’s leg if they don’t stop. (Needless to say, we are working on extinguishing this behavior.) Now, I want to be clear. I do not see this as “herding behavior,” but simply an attempt at intimidation. It just so happens that, being a Border Collie, that’s what intimidation looks like – like a sheepdog facing down a stroppy ewe.

 

I attribute this behavior to her still being in “chase mode” from our Frisbee/ball session. She takes it very seriously. If the Frisbee eludes her because of a vagrant puff of wind or bad timing on her part, she takes it personally. She pounces on the Frisbee and shakes it violently, or steps on it, holding down with her forefeet and pulls hard on it. She never does this after a successful catch.

 

Often, after an intense ball-play session, she will try to snatch things that are lying on the ground. Pine cones, rocks, a paper cup. But she only does this after intense play, and only for a few minutes. Then she reverts to her normal, polite, easy-going self.

 

As a side-note – Sugarfoot is subject to Border Collie collapse. I have noticed that she seems disoriented when having an episode. She will respond sluggishly to being spoken to, and sometimes will mouth things lying on the ground, but she does it in a confused, half-hearted way. I wonder if the “blocking behavior” and the object grabbing have something to do with a “pre-collapse” condition?

[toney]

Certainly there are lines within the border collie breed that seem to just LIKE working cattle better than sheep. Certain dogs who are successful on cattle are then bred together. There are certain lines and individual dogs that are better suited for it. I have a 2.5 yr old cattle bred female who works sheep very nicely but really lights up when cattle are in the picture. She has a nice low heel bite, which I am told is genetic. A low heel bite is desirable because it keeps the dog from getting kicked. When they take hold higher on the leg or on the leg not bearing weight it can cause injury. My girl has an incredibly hard bite that she learned to tone down on sheep. She rarely grips a sheep at all. She has never ever tried to nip, grab or air bite another dog or human though.

 

I believe your dog is overstimulated with the games you play, but full disclosure, I don't play those games with my dogs so I have no personal experience. In stock work, when you call a dog off stock, if they are young they might be slightly disobedient and try to remain or sneak back, but they do not consider the handler or another person as a substitute sheep or anything like that.

 

Therein lies the difference between stock work and other activities, I think. Stock work inherently makes " sense" to a border collie. They have been bred for generations to work, then chill out with the shepherd or in the farmhouse yard or barn. Other games ramp them up and overstimulate them, making teaching an off switch a necessity. Having your dog confront a stranger in the way you describe sounds uncomfortable for all concerned- you, the stranger and the dog and she should be leashed until she calms her mind down to prevent it.

[Liz P]

There are some lines selected purely for cattle work, but most are just bred for work. Some people who breed purely for cattle only want bite. The good (quality breeders) who use their dogs on cattle want quiet power and feel, which the sheep dog people also need/want.

 

I've found zero link between gripping on stock and snapping at people or other dogs.

 

What your dog is doing (staring at the person) is rude and has nothing to do with working or "chase mode." I do think that when people and dogs are mentally or physically exhausted, they just don't have the energy to keep up with social niceties and can revert to their underlying personality (forget their manners). You need to correct her when you first notice her even considering that behavior. Get her off the trail/sidewalk and make her do an incompatible behavior, such as a lie down facing away from the oncoming person.

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What your dog is doing (staring at the person) is rude and has nothing to do with working or "chase mode." I do think that when people and dogs are mentally or physically exhausted, they just don't have the energy to keep up with social niceties and can revert to their underlying personality (forget their manners). You need to correct her when you first notice her even considering that behavior. Get her off the trail/sidewalk and make her do an incompatible behavior, such as a lie down facing away from the oncoming person.

Yes, we are working on the "kneecap eye." She has gotten much better, but I think you are right about her losing her manners when tired. I physically turn her around and make her sit and look at me when she starts to drift in the direction of an oncoming pedestrian. Don't think it will take long to extinguish the behavior, but it came as a surprise the first time it happened. The walk to our play field is about a block, and by the time she's home she's back to normal. She never does it on the way to the field, just on the way back - and not often. It's only happened a half-dozen times. Which, of course, is six times too many...

[geonni banner]

Having your dog confront a stranger in the way you describe sounds uncomfortable for all concerned- you, the stranger and the dog and she should be leashed until she calms her mind down to prevent it.

She's always leashed on the street. (Except some times late at night when everyone in our sleepy little burg is asleep, and we are working on off-leash heeling.) One, because it's safer, two, because there's an $85.00 ticket here for off-leash dogs.

[stockdogranch]

I'll agree 100% with Terry (Toney) and Liz. There are lines that are definitely cattle bred. Good breeding will make a dog that works, but not all will work cattle effectively. As the others have said, I don't do games with mine, so I don't really know about all of that, but I've never had one confuse their work with people in any way. I have had some who will work the other dogs, however, when we are out for a pasture run, but I try hard to put an end to that nonsense.

A

[bcnewe2]

I can't add anything that hasn't already been added and agree whole heartedly with what has been said.

 

Some of my dogs play a bit of ball. But I don't teach it but on occasion I can be pushed into tossing it for them. I've never seen them carry that behavior over to anything else. But my reason for posting is maybe related...?

 

This has happened with all my female dogs but not my one and only male. He is the king so maybe that has something to do with it.

If I take one dog out (it doesn't show up if we're working home stock or even out in the yard alone with one dog), say... working sheep or even to the store or somewhere else fun, when they come home, all of them have shown what we call the only dog big head syndrome when they come in the door. They get all growly and feeling superior shown by their reaction to the other dogs. It doesn't last long but you can defiantly see a difference in their behavior.

Someone once said to me that it could be due to the attitude of working sheep feeling in control and confident. I have no idea but I think it's more likely an only child syndrome kinda thing, they don't want to share their alone good time with each other.

If I take them out together, I don't see the behavior.

 

They never cease to amaze or marvel me!

[Tilly's Handler]

A local farmer had a 3 legged border collie bitch that was one of best dogs i ever seen at moving tough cattle

One situation that stands out was a bull was in a loafing barn and no one could get it out(was being sold because it was very ugly).

I was very surprised when he went and got the 3 legged dog she nabbed the bulls heel then his nose and away he went out of the barn down the alley way and on to the truck.

She was not a dog I would have wanted on my sheep but she was good for a situation where you needed a no nonsense dog.

She had a habit of bumping people from behind with her nose if you were leaving or hitting you in the shins if you tried to get in the house. She never bit that I know of but when she touched you when you were not expecting it was unsettling