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Border Collie structure evaluation


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Maja, very true. But part of my point of view is that the BC is by no means the first breed or even the first species we are doing this too. Most folks I run into come from some sort of dog or lot of horse background. Why is it that we can not quit repeating history? This is 2011. I am on a forum talking to you in Poland. How cool is that!!! So why (others than just simple basic human nature) does this stuff continue to happen when there are soooo many examples out there of it backfiring? This is not theoretical stuff but proven facts. That is what is mind boggling to me. I simply don't understand it. That is all.

 

I also sometimes imagine that a big part of so many folks getting defensive is that they feel attacked in their choices. Meaning they got a dog, not being aware (it does happen) of the great controversy, and then feel that their choices and their dogs who they adore, are being personally attacked. At that point, few good arguments probably come through.

 

A acquaintance of mine breeds GSD's. She has some amazing bloodlines. But yet she chooses to only go the UKC route because she is physically and financially not able to pursue the working route. Very expensive by the time you are talking decoys, club fees etc. Yes I know....I have argued with her about this a million and one times. I hear the same argument from the Halter Horse folks. Some just simply don't enjoy riding or can't or simply suck at it. So they do something they can. They lead and feed. And if they choose to do so they have to justify it somehow. And I think that is where so much of the passion on the other side stems from. Defending personal choices by all means possible.

Fair enough I suppose until you destroy what the animal is all about by breeding by standards that human nature tends to take to extremes.

 

Just my opinion of course.

 

PS: so this group is now gone? I never checked it out but sure would have loved to post a pic of my baby.

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PS: so this group is now gone? I never checked it out but sure would have loved to post a pic of my baby.

 

It's either gone or it has been renamed and is very much "under ground" now.

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Maja, very true. But part of my point of view is that the BC is by no means the first breed or even the first species we are doing this too. Most folks I run into come from some sort of dog or lot of horse background. Why is it that we can not quit repeating history?

 

This is truly what bothers me the most. We have all these examples of breeds of all sorts that have largely been altered almost beyond recognition. And genetic (and other) disasters result. But for some reason people can't seem to stop themselves from repeating the same crazy mistakes. I hate to trot out this old chestnut, but I think it's apropos: the definition of crazy: doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome.

 

Human nature astounds me--that we can be so smart and yet so incredibly stupid at the same time.

 

Fair enough I suppose until you destroy what the animal is all about by breeding by standards that human nature tends to take to extremes.

 

And I don't understand the need to take things to extremes either. It's almost as if it's a twisted version of the whole "watch this" phenomenon. If a little bit is good, then a whole lot must be way better. And then to back-engineer a "history" that explains why the extremes exist today. And people buy into it *all the time.* It just leaves me shaking my head, not only in disbelief but also in sadmess.

 

J.

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Perhaps I'm missing something but why ever should PattiG have felt "attacked" if she had never posted prior to this one post of hers, full of negative descriptors, sarcasm, and invitations to argue?

 

I don't see most people who post getting "attacked" (or flamed or whatever) unless they post something blatantly opposite the board philosophy, come on to defend practices that are clearly in contrast to those the board espouses, or appear to be arguing simply for the sake of disagreeing.

 

As a revision of something someone once asked of me, am I always this dense or am I making a particular effort of it? Or is it just the end of a very long weekend? :P

 

PS - Not criticising you, just not understanding why you said this. It's late and I'm getting sleepy...

 

Don't worry, I don't feel criticized! I'm pretty tough skinned, and you make perfectly good points!

 

She just seemed to be coming into this discussion incredibly defensive and with guns blazing. In my POV, that's a reaction that comes from someone who feels as though their beliefs are being attacked by another (or from some who got their 'feelers' hurt and is trying to 'fight back.') And since she stated that she has been browsing this board for quite awhile, I'm assuming she felt as though we were blatantly attacking her own personal ideals. It just seemed that much of her post was very defensive; I don't think she was being very perceptive of what was actually being said by anyone since some of the commentary was kind of...ignorant? But sometimes, even myself, people just shut themselves down when they feel wronged instead of actively listening and partaking in a discussion. Stubborn is as stubborn does, I suppose.

 

But, honestly, I think someone was just a little "butt hurt" and then decided to go and "get revenge" against the boards, completely ignoring all the opportunities for decent discussion, education, and good will that come about from this board. So if she'd like to throw herself in with the conformation lot, so be it. It's her loss. I doubt she'll find people as good-hearted as those that are a part of this community--most of the 'show types' I've met from volunteering at those types of functions are nothing short of stuck up and rude (with a few exceptions).

 

I hope I explained myself better! Sorry if I just talked myself into a circle, Brady's trying to coerce me into a game of "throw the ball, throw the ball, throw the ball." :P

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Seems to me the same ol circle. They are adamant their dogs can work, they just can't find the time to prove it, whereas, I've never heard one working person say they are sure their dog could get a Ch...

 

I am now thinking PattieG is yet another troll. She pops up once then runs away.

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...I've never heard one working person say they are sure their dog could get a Ch...

There is at least one Open handler that I know who has put two show legs on one of her Open dogs but won't endeavor to get the third because she doesn't want him deregistered with ABCA. He is, of course, also registered with AKC, and she (coming from and deeply involved with AKC) has one foot firmly planted in AKC.

 

But, as for any *genuine* working dog person, I'm with you - I've never met one who is the least bit interested in anything AKC.

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PattiG:

 

I'm by no means an expert at anything dog related, and don't claim to be. I'm just someone who stumbled into this arena after adopting a border collie and ending up with a breed I never intended to own.

 

I understand the POV and motivations of the board people who advocate breed for working ability, though I have no interest in breeding or working my dog.

 

Beyond the politics of working or not working, though, the larger fear about the AKC and other "body structure" groups is that they produce dogs whose bodies are genetically engineered to fail. Centuries of breeding for "structure standards" has produced bizarre, unhealthy dogs in many breeds. This isn't a political statement, and I have no dog in the fight, as it were, in any breed. But it is a danger to the health of dogs.

 

Learning more is never a bad thing, right? So here's a BBC documentary about breeding for "show standards," and what it's done to dogs over the last century or so:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhXHFOrBbEc

 

 

I hope that in the interest of open-mindedness and diversity, you'll take the time to take in the information presented there.

 

(My apologies if this has already been mentioned - I read the last two pages of this thread, but skipped over the first several, for fear of being overwhelmed.)

 

Mary

 

Mary,

Thanks so much for posting this video. I don't watch television at all, and was unable to buy a DVD of it. I have heard about it a lot, of course, but never got to see it.

 

I watched it last night - and downloaded it - and I had to stay up an hour later than usual to get it out of my head. Those poor Cavaliers! I am well acquainted with the problems of breeding dogs "to standard," and also those of tight line breeding or inbreeding. But this really spells it out. Everyone should see this. And it isn't just dogs. Horses and all sorts of livestock, plants even!

 

Sheesh!

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I am sorry the group was deleted. I liked looking at the different type of border collie. I did HATE getting email clog with pixs though. :)

 

I am not really sure why it was an issue.

 

As people pointed out if you don't like conformation dogs don't look at them.

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Wow. That's what you take from all of this? That's sad.

If someone enjoys AKC activities, that's not surprising. But sad, because there is a much bigger message to be learned here.

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Weeeelll, I don’t like child abuse, terrorism, or taxation without representation. Should I just not look at those?

 

Conformation showing may bid fair to destroy not only the Border Collie, but all purebred (formerly purpose-bred) dogs. The Bulldog is toast already, along with the Pug, Cavaliers, Scottish Deerhounds, German Shepherd Dogs, and dozens of other breeds. I think making a noise about that is not only a good idea; it’s the duty of anyone who cares about dogs.

 

People do a lot of things with dogs that I find silly or pointless. Those I can ignore. But when you threaten the health, soundness and genetic viability of a species, I won’t look away. And I don’t think anyone who claims to value dogs should either.

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To this day I fail to see how these discussions keep going on. Except that in today's world more people own animals as pets (nothing wrong with that in itself) and have no real anchors in the original purposes. The way to look at things is not, and as a matter of fact, can not, be the same anymore.

 

Yes, just a head scratcher as to why logic and exposure to reality has far less effect than one might assume. (Makes me wonder what I am blind to, despite reality, at this very moment.)

 

Why do people keep doing the same thing to breeds despite the effect on the animals involved? Perhaps it's one huge dose of nostalgia, plus a tradition of separating ourselves from animals even though (or because?) we are also animals--a separation which keeps us from identifying with them, plus the need to put unpleasant things out of our minds that would otherwise keep us from doing things we enjoy, minus a sense of shame or responsibility. (At least this is what I understand Jonathan Safran Foer to be saying in regards to why people eat animals from factory farms even knowing what goes on there, and it seems like that explanation could be analogous to people repeatedly breeding for structure despite the harm it causes the individuals and the breeds.)

 

Solutions? Outside of trying to do your very personal best and a clear and solid representation of our POV, I personally don't know any that will not trip over certain egos and misguided knowledge.

 

It sounds like a good start to me. I hope that education at some point puts a dent in things. There must be a point (geez I hope so) when enough people sharing the information makes the mainstream way of thinking untenable. 'Course that can occur so slowly and it seems it wouldn't take any time at all to wreck the working border collie, which is a sad thought.

 

B.

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I wasn't going to bother responding to PattiG's post since most of it is the same ridiculous rhetoric we hear from the show world time and time again, but this little gem made me laugh.

 

Further, I've seen people disparaged for being 'trolls' here and yet, you go and do the same thing elsewhere. If you don't like or agree with that group, then why not just live and let live and not go there just to stir up trouble, because despite what you may feel is 'educating' is frankly, far from.

 

So the people that went and posted a different viewpoint (work instead of show crap) were deemed trolls.

 

And in the same breath, she comes up with:

 

So, go ahead flame away and tear my post apart with all your 'rationale' and continue to preach to the choir & pat yourselves on the back for all your wisdom and my ignorance.

 

Isn't that what they were doing until the "trolls" showed up? LMAO!!! And now their group is no longer because they couldn't stand seeing another viewpoint. Or it's gone completely "underground" so they can only invite those who agree with their position. Imagine that.

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In another recent topic, a few people spoke up in favor of the "education" they had received here on the boards from the people (especially like Julie P) who persist in being willing to discuss things with newbies and explain about the importance of breeding for the work and supporting ethical, honest, true working-breeders (and, of course, rescue). It's that kind of person, that kind of change in someone's understand and perception, that makes it all worthwhile.

 

You can't give up a good and worthwhile effort because it sometimes falls on deaf ears. Besides, you never know what idea you might plant that will bear fruit someday in the future.

 

Thanks to those who try to educate and are concerned about the future of the working Border Collie.

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I am not really sure why it was an issue.

 

As people pointed out if you don't like conformation dogs don't look at them.

 

 

Except no one was showing pictures of their dogs to say "look at my pretty dog," they were saying "lets use the conformation standard to evaluate these dogs for their structure and ability." You cannot use a written standard of form to determine function, thus many people (and not just people from here) posted to this effect and were subsequently labeled as "problem" people. So, rather than listening and maybe allowing dissension and learning something, the group was made private.

 

Its an issue because its depressing.

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Except no one was showing pictures of their dogs to say "look at my pretty dog," they were saying "lets use the conformation standard to evaluate these dogs for their structure and ability." You cannot use a written standard of form to determine function, thus many people (and not just people from here) posted to this effect and were subsequently labeled as "problem" people. So, rather than listening and maybe allowing dissension and learning something, the group was made private.

 

Its an issue because its depressing.

 

Yes, this. And then deciding to breed based on it.

 

And, for the record, many of us who also "enjoy AKC activities" get it. Maybe not all of us, but plenty.

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Yes, this. And then deciding to breed based on it.

 

And, for the record, many of us who also "enjoy AKC activities" get it. Maybe not all of us, but plenty.

 

No you don't or you'd stop giving your money to an organization that has ruined every breed they get their hands on, and then rationalizing it by saying "it's the only game in town". If you were serious about doing other activities and not supporting the AKC, you'd host your own events sanctioned by someone else. That's how sheepdog trials work.

 

Pearse

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FWIW, last semester I needed to write a pursuasive paper for a class. I chose to write one on why the AKC is bad for dogs.

 

I'd encourage eeryone to reserch their stance on puppy mills, find out how they actively support puppy mills, find out how that have all the big words about being the "dog's champion" but when it comes right down to it upper managment doesn't care about anything but the bottom line. They tell people to avoid puppy mills on their site, but then go to dog auctions and tell puppy mill breeders that AKC registration is money in the bank. They are playing both ends - one to look good to the public and one for their own financial benefit.

 

Then look into a breed like English Bulldogs. Without AI and c-section the breed would be dead. But all of that is ok because they still have the perfect bulldog look according to the AKC :blink::(

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