Made it to a trial

[Sue R]

Anyone know what that tranlates to in US dollars? Sue? I'm looking at lessons for $130 an hour, but I'm assuming that I'll have to pay more because anyone I can find is traveling from somewhere else entirely. I'm having to travel at least 2 1/2 hours for the closest one of those. Paying this much really makes the idea of board and train look better and better.

Julie posted the cost before I got here. Wow.

 

Are you saying that that cost for you would be so high because the trainer is driving in from somewhere else, and covering his/her travel cost as part of the fee?

 

This is where a clinic can be very cost-effective if you can find one and the travel/lodging is affordable. You get two-three days of instruction (you and your dog only work a couple times a day for a fairly short period, but you get the benefit of watching, listening, and asking questions as everyone else works, too).

 

Board and train can be very effective, especially if you follow up by spending some time with the trainer yourself, getting acquainted with how your dog works and has been handled, but it is not cheap, either. A good trainer is priceless but a trainer that does not accomplish good work with your dog (for whatever reason) is a disaster.

[juliepoudrier]

Yep, you definitely want to find someone whose training methods and style you are comfortable with and can emulate.

 

J.

[juliepoudrier]

The only problem with board and train is that if you are a newbie yourself, then you (the human) will still need competent instruction. Getting the dog trained by someone else isn't a bad idea if that's the route you want (or need) to choose, but it still leaves you without someone to teach you how to work a dog and manage livestock. And without regular, good instruction it's far too easy for the trained dog to regress in the hands of a novice handler (or if it's in the dog's nature, then to take advantage of the human's lack of knowledge).

 

J.

[GentleLake]

I did board and train with my first border collie thirty odd years ago. For me it was a great experience.

 

But we knew the trainer well, and had already been to some clinics with him, so I knew his methods, style and yes, we did have follow up instruction with the dog at his place before we left.

[Maxi]

Unfortunately the number of training opportunities doesn't necessarily make it more doable. I hadn't looked into training charges but I see from training gift vouchers that trainers are offering that £65 for an hour's 1-1 seems to be the going rate for a "name" trainer. I need to shop around more.

That does seem expensive to me. Looking at a couple of UK websites for well respected sheepdog handlers/trainers who do provide costs on their sites it seems to vary from £30 - £45 per hour. The 2 I've checked out probably aren't near you, but it may be worth actually ringing those who are.

 

As others have said, the most important thing is finding someone whose TRAINING method you would like to use (this is definitely not necessarily the same as the way they come across as a person or how they appear to act on a trial field!)..perhaps you could go along to a couple of clinics as a spectator?

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Ms. Mum,

 

I second this suggestion. Novices often get more from a clinic when they don't have their own dog to worry about.

 

Second suggestion: As I recall, your dog is out of Derek Scrimageour's breeding. Derek's a fine instructor and will be familiar with your dog's inherited traits. After you've got the dog going round the sheep with a modicum of control -even if it means overnight travel - you should take advantage of Derek's special knowledge.

 

Donald McCaig

[mum24dog]

Julie posted the cost before I got here. Wow.Are you saying that that cost for you would be so high because the trainer is driving in from somewhere else, and covering his/her travel cost as part of the fee?This is where a clinic can be very cost-effective if you can find one and the travel/lodging is affordable. You get two-three days of instruction (you and your dog only work a couple times a day for a fairly short period, but you get the benefit of watching, listening, and asking questions as everyone else works, too).Board and train can be very effective, especially if you follow up by spending some time with the trainer yourself, getting acquainted with how your dog works and has been handled, but it is not cheap, either. A good trainer is priceless but a trainer that does not accomplish good work with your dog (for whatever reason) is a disaster.

 

No, trainers on their own premises.

A day training with half a dozen other would cost about the same but you might get less work time.

I don't need a dog to work and no way would I and him away for someone else to train.

[mum24dog]

Dear Ms. Mum

 

Second suggestion: As I recall, your dog is out of Derek Scrimageour's breeding. Derek's a fine instructor and will be familiar with your dog's inherited traits. After you've got the dog going round the sheep with a modicum of control -even if it means overnight travel - you should take advantage of Derek's special knowledge.

 

Donald McCaig

Well that was my thinking but the cost is a factor. Derek is only just over an hour from home so no overnight needed. He doesn't charge any more than some others not as well known.

 

With no access to sheep though, I wouldn't think of even starting my dog unless I could afford to follow it through with frequent enough training. Don't want to let the genie out of the bottle.

[mum24dog]

That does seem expensive to me. Looking at a couple of UK websites for well respected sheepdog handlers/trainers who do provide costs on their sites it seems to vary from £30 - £45 per hour. The 2 I've checked out probably aren't near you, but it may be worth actually ringing those who are.

As others have said, the most important thing is finding someone whose TRAINING method you would like to use (this is definitely not necessarily the same as the way they come across as a person or how they appear to act on a trial field!)..perhaps you could go along to a couple of clinics as a spectator?

Who and where?

 

I'm sure a friend doesn't pay big money for her training in the southern Pennines but the cost of fuel and time to get there wouldn't make it any cheaper for me.

 

I'd prefer to go on personal recommendation from someone I have talked to at some length and formed the opinion that we are on the same page art our dogs.

[Bogwoppit]

Who and where?

 

I'm sure a friend doesn't pay big money for her training in the southern Pennines but the cost of fuel and time to get there wouldn't make it any cheaper for me.

 

I'd prefer to go on personal recommendation from someone I have talked to at some length and formed the opinion that we are on the same page art our dogs.

I don't know about respected" because I am ignorant, but the places within 1-2 hours of me charge around £45 a session, and some even offer full "days" (I suspect a long afternoon) for under £100. This is Midlands, so YMMV.

 

Maxi the one thing I have noticed about going to spectate is often it can cost half the price of attending with a dog. Perhaps this is to stop dog owners bringing distracting/uninterested people?

[Maxi]

Who and where?

I'm sure a friend doesn't pay big money for her training in the southern Pennines but the cost of fuel and time to get there wouldn't make it any cheaper for me.

I'd prefer to go on personal recommendation from someone I have talked to at some length and formed the opinion that we are on the same page art our dogs.

Well I just did a Google search. The 2 I found quite quickly were

 

http://www.sheepdog-training.co.uk/course.html

 

http://www.nethhillbordercollies.co.uk/index.php/training/sheepdog-handler-training.html

 

The first is run by someone who regularly is placed in Open trials and has previously represented England at the International. The second is based in Scotland and has won almost every ISDS trial going. Both have written sheepdog training books.

 

Of course their websites may be out of date and as I said in my earlier post,they may not be close to you, But these sites do give an indication of what some 'big hats' are charging.

 

However, your earlier post mentions how close you are to Derek Scrimageour. If you decide to start training and if his prices are not excessive, then surely (as Mr. McCaig suggests) isn't he the obvious choice?

 

ETA does the owner of the blue Merle dog you posted a video link to in another thread live near you? Her website describes how she used to work with Derek Scrimageour. As someone just starting out, her charges may be less

[Maxi]

 

Maxi the one thing I have noticed about going to spectate is often it can cost half the price of attending with a dog. Perhaps this is to stop dog owners bringing distracting/uninterested people?

It''s more likely that a spectator can still learn a lot from a trainer even if they are not running their own dogs. It'so why folk find clinics so useful. Clinics are training events that lasts 1 or more days and several folk attend. The individual handler may only get 1 or 2 shortish sessions running their own dog each day..but they still get the opportunity to learn loads from hearing and watching the trainer work with all the others.

[GentleLake]

It''s more likely that a spectator can still learn a lot from a trainer even if they are not running their own dogs. It'so why folk find clinics so useful. Clinics are training events that lasts 1 or more days and several folk attend. The individual handler may only get 1 or 2 shortish sessions running their own dog each day..but they still get the opportunity to learn loads from hearing and watching the trainer work with all the others.

 

Very true. It wasn't at all unusual that I'd already have an idea how to deal with something that came up in training because someone else's dog had had the same issue at a clinic I'd attended.

[juliepoudrier]

For most of the clinics I've attended, the audit prices were significantly lower than the price of attending the clinic with a dog. I will put a dog in a clinic (had one with Jack Knox recently and will have one with Tommy Wilson next weekend), but I get tons out of watching the clinician work with other dogs and handlers because I'm not busy working my own dog and so can really concentrate on the interaction between the clinician and the other person's dog.

 

Mum24Dog,

Sue's post was in response to Gideon's Girl, who mentioned a price a bit higher than what you posted and then said the trainer would have to travel. We had two similar conversations going on at once.

 

ETA: Just checked Maxi's links and both trainers (Nij Vyas and Julie Hill) are exceptional handlers and the prices are good, especially Julie Hill's (30 GBP/hr). If you were able to go to Julie, you could combine lessons with practice and study using her wonderful book. I really like her training techniques.

 

J.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Aspiring or maybe Not Sheepdoggers,

 

Ms Mum wrote (in part): "With no access to sheep though, I wouldn't think of even starting my dog unless I could afford to follow it through with frequent enough training. Don't want to let the genie out of the bottle."

 

Your dog won't care whatever you decide. The genie, however, may be waiting to talk to you. He's pushy.

 

 

Donald McCaig

[Gideon's girl]

 

Are you saying that that cost for you would be so high because the trainer is driving in from somewhere else, and covering his/her travel cost as part of the fee?

 

This is where a clinic can be very cost-effective if you can find one and the travel/lodging is affordable. You get two-three days of instruction (you and your dog only work a couple times a day for a fairly short period, but you get the benefit of watching, listening, and asking questions as everyone else works, too).

 

Board and train can be very effective, especially if you follow up by spending some time with the trainer yourself, getting acquainted with how your dog works and has been handled, but it is not cheap, either. A good trainer is priceless but a trainer that does not accomplish good work with your dog (for whatever reason) is a disaster.

I assume that's why lessons by big hats who come down are that much. And I hope to find clinics I can attand without my dog for a bit and get lessons with my dog, then attend clinics with my dog. Or attend clinics with out my dog, send my dog to broard and train, get lessons with my dog, and attend clinics with my dog. As rare as good lessons are availabe down here, I think I may have to go the board and train route, even though my strong preference is to train my own dog.

[Maxi]

Dear Aspiring or maybe Not Sheepdoggers,

 

Ms Mum wrote (in part): "With no access to sheep though, I wouldn't think of even starting my dog unless I could afford to follow it through with frequent enough training. Don't want to let the genie out of the bottle."

 

Your dog won't care whatever you decide. The genie, however, may be waiting to talk to you. He's pushy.

 

 

Donald McCaig

 

Yep.. I was thinking the same thing.

 

Mum24dogs,As you live in a sheep-filled area, you may find that have little choice but to train your dog (and learn sufficient stock-sense yourself) ..at least upto the point where he is relatively responsible around stock. By this I mean your dog may need to be trained to a level where he goes into a steadying "work" mode when he sees sheep rather than moving straight into an excited "play/chase" mindset. A dog with this second attitude is much less likely to listen to you.

[Sue R]

I assume that's why lessons by big hats who come down are that much. And I hope to find clinics I can attand without my dog for a bit and get lessons with my dog, then attend clinics with my dog. Or attend clinics with out my dog, send my dog to broard and train, get lessons with my dog, and attend clinics with my dog. As rare as good lessons are availabe down here, I think I may have to go the board and train route, even though my strong preference is to train my own dog.

Oh, okay, you are talking about big-name handlers who come in to do lessons, either in conjunction with a clinic or running in or judging a trial, then? Yes, those are very pricey. I did that once with Scott Glen after a trial he judged. Celt and I did two 1/2 hour lessons (one on each of two days in a row) for $100. But, since I'd already gone to the expense of the travel and was either camping or staying with the hostess for free, the expense was not a huge add-on for me. It was very worthwhile but I have to admit that at my stage of understanding, I would have done better perhaps to have had a bit more experience in order to make the most of his instruction. I think something like that is particularly good for someone who wants a very knowledgeable person to help them with a particular problem or "tune-up" needed with their dog.

 

Board and train is good with the right person but as others have mentioned, you need to be able to work with your dog and that person as well - otherwise, it's like having your computer programmed by someone and then you need to run it without knowing the program!

[mum24dog]

Yep.. I was thinking the same thing.

Mum24dogs,As you live in a sheep-filled area, you may find that have little choice but to train your dog (and learn sufficient stock-sense yourself) ..at least upto the point where he is relatively responsible around stock. By this I mean your dog may need to be trained to a level where he goes into a steadying "work" mode when he sees sheep rather than moving straight into an excited "play/chase" mindset. A dog with this second attitude is much less likely to listen to you.

 

Not necessarily. Plenty of people, including me, have collies that don't get into trouble with sheep because they have been trained to ignore them.

 

Conversely, an extremely experienced collie owner friend has just adopted a dog that has had previous training on sheep which she is carrying on. She says she will never be able to trust him near sheep when not working because he is so obsessed. I don't want to start and regret it.

[mum24dog]

Well I just did a Google search. The 2 I found quite quickly were http://www.sheepdog-training.co.uk/course.htmlhttp://www.nethhillbordercollies.co.uk/index.php/training/sheepdog-handler-training.html

The first is run by someone who regularly is placed in Open trials and has previously represented England at the International. The second is based in Scotland and has won almost every ISDS trial going. Both have written sheepdog training books.

Of course their websites may be out of date and as I said in my earlier post,they may not be close to you, But these sites do give an indication of what some 'big hats' are charging.

However, your earlier post mentions how close you are to Derek Scrimageour. If you decide to start training and if his prices are not excessive, then surely (as Mr. McCaig suggests) isn't he the obvious choice?

ETA does the owner of the blue Merle dog you posted a video link to in another thread live near you? Her website describes how she used to work with Derek Scrimageour. As someone just starting out, her charges may be less

 

The trouble is that having to travel, even if I had the time, would negate any saving in training fees. Thanks for the links but they are several hours away. I know about Nij Vyas and I'm pretty sure he would suit me but let's just say that what I read about Julie Hill makes me think we would grate on each other.

 

Anni Ritakallio works in Cheshire now so probably around a couple of hours away.

 

Derek's Christmas discount rate is £50 an hour for 1-1 so too expensive for basic and regular traing for me and I can't spare the time to go that far when there are several alternatives within 30 mins. I've been up to Derek's several times and I would get tired of the journey.

 

However, things may not be as bad as I thought. I have been talking today to someone who trains with someone whose web site says £65 but she only pays £20. Another pays £10 to a hatless trainer for what may end up as more than an hour if the dog is up to it. At those prices it would be much more doable.

 

So, I need to chat to more people, find out who they train with and how much they pay rather than believing a web site, if the trainer has one.

[Maxi]

Not necessarily. Plenty of people, including me, have collies that don't get into trouble with sheep because they have been trained to ignore them.

Conversely, an extremely experienced collie owner friend has just adopted a dog that has had previous training on sheep which she is carrying on. She says she will never be able to trust him near sheep when not working because he is so obsessed. I don't want to start and regret it.

Well,there are dogs.. And then there are dogs.. Depends on the 'genie', within..As Mr McCaig said, he can be pushy.

 

YMMV

 

Good luck with whatever route you decide to take with your pup.

[Bogwoppit]

Talking cost, and please excuse my ignorance, but how often on average is training done? Weekly? Monthly?

I would very much like to do at least basic training if my dog takes to it. If only to get out of town and speak to nice people, whilst giving the dog a unique workload. At the moment I am putting £xx away a week for doggy costs, and I'd be curious how much I'm off by.

 

One of my big passions is country walking, and many public footpaths in my old stamping grounds run in and out of sheep fields. I would not deliberately risk any off leash dog in those fields, but sometimes life throws curves, and having the control to return the dog to me and leave livestock would help me sleep easy.

[mum24dog]

A friend goes twice a week, preferably 3 times. But she only lives 15 mins away and pays £10 an hour. She hasn't started from scratch with her dog and is hoping to trial in next winter's nurseries.

 

People on here have said they train every day with their own sheep.

[Bogwoppit]

I'd like to treat it as an interesting thing to do, where we could pick up roughly where we left off, give the dog a workout and break from the norm. I don't have the disposition for trailing, I suspect. I'm not a competitive person, I enjoy doing things well but at a relaxed pace - I also suspect there's no award in trailing for enjoying the stroll.

To be honest being able to move sheep at all would be a delightful success, I love learning for the joy of learning.

[juliepoudrier]

Just throwing this out there, but it is possible to start a dog working stock and still manage to walk them around livestock without them going nuts and chasing sheep. I used to regularly cut through my sheep pasture with mine, but if they knew we weren't working and I told them to stay with me, they didn't go off working sheep on their own, nor did I have to scream at them constantly to get them to stay with me. They know when they're expected to work and when not. (Caveat: This doesn't apply to puppies/youngsters before they have some control on them, but until they are reliable, they would just be on a leash.) So anyway, starting them on sheep doesn't necessarily mean that they will become trouble around sheep.

 

J.