TDFOSTER Posted December 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2014 Paula, the behaviorist recommended that I start working with Jade on a muzzle/gentle leader. So off to the store I went last night and we started work. As long as there is a treat that she can get to, she will put her nose through the loop of the gentle leader. I let it rest on her nose a couple of times and then took it right off and she seemed to tolerate that pretty well. Going to work with that a couple of days and then start to work with the muzzle. I got the one that is open at the end and allows her to open her mouth some. I thought that might not freak her as much as one that was closed at the end. Any other suggestions to help with this process? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d112358 Posted December 18, 2014 Report Share Posted December 18, 2014 Paula, the behaviorist recommended that I start working with Jade on a muzzle/gentle leader. So off to the store I went last night and we started work. As long as there is a treat that she can get to, she will put her nose through the loop of the gentle leader. I let it rest on her nose a couple of times and then took it right off and she seemed to tolerate that pretty well. Going to work with that a couple of days and then start to work with the muzzle. I got the one that is open at the end and allows her to open her mouth some. I thought that might not freak her as much as one that was closed at the end. Any other suggestions to help with this process? The muzzle you got isn't fitted correctly. The open-end ones are designed to keep the dog's mouth closed (or very close to closed), for use over short periods of time (I've usually seen them used at the vet or groomer) - fitted correctly they won't allow the dog to eat, drink or pant. The ones that are meant for longer-term use are either built like a plastic basket, wire cage, or some sort of Hannibal Lechter-looking leather/cage combo. My recommendation for muzzle training is to get a bottle of spray cheese. It's much easier than trying to stuff small treats through the end of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waffles Posted December 18, 2014 Report Share Posted December 18, 2014 Yes, to what d11 said. Return the muzzle and get a basket muzzle. The one you have should not be used longer than necessary, and I would only use one during grooming or at a vet (plus they can still nip while wearing one). I personally like the Baskerville brand muzzles. Allows the dog to eat, drink and pant normally. You can easily feed treats through it as well. The sizing can be funny so if you can buy one in store that would be best. You also do not have to use the top strap, that's really if you were worried about her pawing it off. http://t.petco.com/product/119470/The-Company-of-Animals-Baskerville-Ultra-Muzzle-for-Dogs.aspx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MossyOak Posted December 18, 2014 Report Share Posted December 18, 2014 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDFOSTER Posted December 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2014 Thank you for you advice! Just what i was looking for. I will see if I can find a Baskerville muzzle around here. Just trying to go in stages with her so she doesn't freak and then won't work with them anymore. I will let you know if I can find one here or have to order on line. Teri Wafles I just saw the link in your post. I will go there. We have Petco here so maybe they have them in the store. Thank yoU! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDFOSTER Posted December 19, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2014 Jade and I will be going to Petco tomorrow to try and find a Baskerville muzzle to fit her. They have all sizes in stock so hopefully we can do a decent job of fitting her. The store manager said as long as she wasn't aggressive she could come in. What he doesn't know is that she will just pretty much shut down when we go in. Last night Jade and the boxer got into it but it was totally resource guarding and my sister not paying attention. There were no injuries but I just hate for the behavior to continue and Jade start to make connections with it. She went in the boxers crate with a toy and the boxer wanted the toy and went in to get it.. I wasn't there so that is all the story I know. In addition, my mom left her for a couple of hours in her crate with a large black Kong filled with peanut butter and frozen for a couple of days. When she returned, Jade had totally destroyed the back of the plastic bottom. Have no idea what could have triggered that. It is a new behavior. It feels like bad behavior is really starting to escalate. I have been reading up on the Baskerville muzzle and muzzles in general. From what I am reading, Jade should only wear the muzzle when she is out with the other dogs? And or we are going places such as my work where she can have the opportunity to bite? She does get cranky in her grate occasionally when the other dogs get too close or if there is someone new in the house and she things they get too close. The crate is her safe place, she eats in there 1/2 the time and she knows to just go there when I leave for work and she gets treat so I don't understand why she would try to destroy it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdawgs Posted December 20, 2014 Report Share Posted December 20, 2014 I started to write something several times and deleted it. Now i am just going to say it: You wrote: "Jade bit my boss on Friday" When you go to the petstore on Saturday the dog needs to stay home. Buy 2-3 muzzles that look like they will fit, try them on the dog AT HOME, and return the muzzles that don't fit. Have you considered what would happen, if a kid (or someone's dog) startles her from behind while you are trying muzzles on? The muzzle will prevent her from biting, but it won't make her less fearful. In fact it may make her more fearful. Until a decision has been made and there is a plan, I would leave this dog at home in quiet place except for trips to the vet, behaviorist, trainer, etc. I am sorry that you are in this terrible situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d112358 Posted December 20, 2014 Report Share Posted December 20, 2014 I agree with blackdawgs that she should stay home, and that a muzzle on a fearful dog may make them more fearful. Don't take a known biter out in public. The muzzle is emergency protection. Early work with the muzzle involves forming a lot of positive association with having it on - this means work in a quiet room with no other people or dogs around and a lot of treats. If you don't trust her not to jump the other dogs, you need to keep them physically separated; a muzzle will protect them in the short-term but will likely cause her to escalate her behavior and make her more dog-reactive if it's rooted in fear. Why are there still toys out when multiple dogs are out together? Jade is a known resource guarder, so keep the toys put away and have separate supervised toy playtime. How many hours a day does she spend crated, and how much exercise did she get yesterday? She might be bored and acting out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDFOSTER Posted December 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2014 I know that it sounds like Jade is totally out of control and bites everything and everyone but that isn't the case. I do understand what you are saying about biting, toys etc. and the muzzle possibly making her worse. I only want the muzzle for short periods so that I can work with her when she is out and decides to snark...which so far the snarking is not necessarily related to resource guarding. With me Jade is totally submissive and when I have had her at adoption events with kids and dogs and adults, she has only snarked one dog that came right up into her space. I have taken her to Pet Smart on several occassions as we were trying to socialize her without incident ever. The reason the toys are out is because Jade wants to play tug of war with the boston and the boxer and 90% of the time there is no issue. She is extremely sad when she can't be with them. That is why I get so confused about the snarking. We also keep them separated when my sister are I are not home. My mom keeps them separated with gates and sometimes crating. Jade spends less that 3 hours a day in a crate. She plays outside running on the hill at my home and when I am home she plays alot with the boston terrier. We try to take them on walks but I work 12-14 hours a day so most days that is not possible for me. We have started to learn some of the triggers. They can never all three go to the door together. The Boston gets stepped on in the excitement. That is a trigger for her to start biting the other dogs. I get to be home for 4 days over the holidays so I am also hoping that I will be able to view them for longer periods of time and see if I can see a subtle trigger that I am not seeing now. She also goes to the vet on Wednesday for a work up and to discuss anti anxiety meds for the short term. Melatonin isn't much help but it could be I am not dosing her correctly either. More reason to have discussiosn with the vet. I am trying to come to grips in my mind that even though we are doing all of this, she may still have to be PTS. I watched her this week-end and even though she has been with us for 11 months at the end of December, she still freaks out at the sound of things she cannot see, i.e., sweeper being run upstairs and her and I are down; people walking across the floor above us...to me that does not bode well for getting her over her fears. Thank you all for your comments as they give me things to think about I might not otherwise have noticed or thought about. Teri PS I have not been to the Pet Store to get the muzzle yet. I will not take her with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdawgs Posted December 22, 2014 Report Share Posted December 22, 2014 As a FYI, there are 2 broad classes of antianxiety medications that are used in dogs. Valium and related drugs are used for situational anxiety (e.g storm phobia, fireworks), whereas the antidepressants are used for generalized anxiety (always fearful/ anxious). It can take 6 weeks for the antidepressents to reach maximun levels. These drugs work best with behavior modification. An expectation of weeks to months (more likely months and this can be many months) to see improvement is reasonable. Because drugs related to valium are controlled substances and have abuse potential in humans, some vets are reluctant to prescribe them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDFOSTER Posted December 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2014 Thank you Blackdawgs...this will help me in my discussion with the Vet on Wednesday. I knew that there needed to be a build up in the system to get the maximum results from most of the drugs...just didn't know the time frame. The trainer is aware that we are talking about this and I am to call her when the discussions have been had with the vet. I am just going to throw this out here. Does anyone think it is a good idea to just turn her over to a trainer to have full time while the drug therapy is being initiated so they can do behavior modification more than one session a week? Teri Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdawgs Posted December 22, 2014 Report Share Posted December 22, 2014 It depends on the trainer, their philosphy, how good they are, etc. LIving with a messed up dog is a lifestyle and has to be a labor of love. I have a now 8 year old rescue dog on prozac. When the dog was about 2-2.5 years, i did the DVM behaviorist thing, then worked with a trainer weekly for a time, but stopped shelling out the cash after I realized that the trainer was pretty limited. I spent A LOT of time working with the dog beyond the weekly sessions. As I said, it is a lifestyle. These dogs require constant management, so they can't get themselves into trouble. Now, I have a dog that can pretty much go anywhere with me (at her worst, she never put her teeth on a person or another dog, as she was purely reactive). She probably seems pretty normal to most people now. But, i know this dog so well that i can remove her from situations before badness even starts.I even managed to put some agility titles on her, No one thought that this was possible. At her worst, she would go off at a dog that was literally a block away. She looked for monsters everywhere. I stopped taking her to agility competitiond after I realized that she was holding herself togethe for me. I would not have put the work into this dog, if I didn't love her and if she wasn't mine. I think that you need to decide if you want to continue this. If you pull the plug, the rescue will probably guilt you, but no one here will blame you, nor would any other reasonable person. This has gone one for 11 months now, how much longer can this continue? Is this fair to you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d112358 Posted December 22, 2014 Report Share Posted December 22, 2014 I am just going to throw this out here. Does anyone think it is a good idea to just turn her over to a trainer to have full time while the drug therapy is being initiated so they can do behavior modification more than one session a week? It can take weeks or months for a dog to adjust to a new situation, particularly one that has some fear and anxiety issues. It's probably easier on Jade for her to be in the known environment. From what you've described in the thread till now, I wouldn't let Jade interact with any of the other dogs in the household - she's randomly going after the boxer around twice a week without any apparent provocation, may be resource guarding you, snarks at will, and the boston sounds like yet another reactive dog variable. Each time she bites the boxer or gets into it with the boston probably adds another month of dedicated work to undo those patterns of behavior, snark notwithstanding. Fear reactive dogs are extremely difficult to rehab - you have to implement so much structure that the dog doesn't feel the need to react, and slowly reteach them that their world isn't so scary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urge to herd Posted December 23, 2014 Report Share Posted December 23, 2014 Teri, to answer your question about letting her live with a trainer for the next several weeks, my advice is no. It will be a big stressor for her to get used to a new home/people/routine. AND, you will be able to observe her and notice if the medication is making a difference. Someone who hasn't lived with Jade doesn't have that world of experience with her. I know your pain. Please believe me when I say you are doing an excellent job for Jade, and giving her the best chance there is. Ruth and SuperGibbs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDFOSTER Posted December 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2014 Thank you all for your comments, suggestions, and advice. I know I have some huge decisions to make over the next several weeks. One of them being if I want to make the committment to keep her for the rest of her life if the decision to not put her down is made. Unless a trained person became interested in her I don't think I can just let her go to any home, no matter what. I am 62 and the reason I went to fostering is because I didnt' want that 14 year committment to an animal that I didn't know I could keep until the end of its life cycle. Felt that fostering was most likely the best of both worlds. I personally did not think it was a good idea to turn her over to anyone else while we are dong the drug therapy but I wanted to make sure I was not missing something. We have our vet appointment in the morning. And this vet works very closely with the rescue and is quite honest and upfront regarding the dogs so I am looking forward to his input. I don't think he will have problem telling me or the rescue that Jade has no chance if that is what he thinks. As much as I would totally like to restrict all contact with the other dogs in my home, that is not feasible so the very best I can do is keep them apart as much as I can and be as diligent as possible in not allowing Jade to snark Jet. Jade does not initiate the fighting with Mollie the Botston. We are working on figuring out what trigges Mollie and we have a couple of things already. Everyone who reads this or contributes to it, Have a Very Merry Christmas. Thank you for all your support. Teri and Jade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvw Posted December 23, 2014 Report Share Posted December 23, 2014 Merry Christmas Teri. You are one dedicated person! Peace to both you and Jade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDFOSTER Posted December 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2014 Merry Christmas to you jvw. I am going to take a break for a few days and just try to focus on family and Jade. Will touch base next week unless I have more free time than I think. Thank you all again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDFOSTER Posted December 29, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 29, 2014 Hope everyone had a good Christmas. Update on Jade's vet visit. Most blood work was within normal limits and the couple that were a bit outside were not concerning to the vet. BUT she still has a UTI with lots of blood and white blood cells and bacteria. So they are changing antibiotics and a 3 week regimen rather than normal 2 weeks. Jade also has stopped eathing any kibble or wet food. Tried 4 different kinds. So...started putting plain yogurt on it to get something in her tummy. She will take her antibiotic with peanut butter but since she gets that twice a day did not want to add peanut butter to the food. She is eathing some so will take that. Important to get something in her tummy with the antibiotics. Jade did fairly well over the holiday. She did spend several hours in a separate room from people Christmas Eve night and 4 hours in her crate in her normal sleeping room Christmas day. We had no snarking of any kind until yesterday. And after closely wathcing for the four days I was home, it is definitely resource guarding of toys and humans 95% of the time. The rescue has agreed to let me work with the behaviorist we started with. There was a comment that the inconsistent response time from the trainer was concerning to the rescue owner...so that made me feel a bit better about my gut regarding the trainer. Paula wants Jade to have some anti-anxiety medication started before we start actual work. She will have to write me a note to forward to the vet and the rescue owner as the vet does not want to prescribe anti-anxiety unless a behavorist/trainer specifically tells her it is needed. Guess I understand that but seems to extend the process to me. Have a Happy New Year everyone. Will try not to burn up the forum so much this week. Teri and Jade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxi Posted December 29, 2014 Report Share Posted December 29, 2014 Feeling ill and in pain from a UTI will may make some dogs (and humans) snarky. It may not be the full answer to all her behavioural problems especially as some of it seems to be resource guarding.. but getting on top of Jade's UTI may well help some of her issues. (Also some antibiotics make some humans feel nauseaous and/or alter the sense of taste.. so this may help explain why Jade doesn't currently feel like eating her usual food). Eta glad that most of your Xmas went smoothly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDFOSTER Posted December 29, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 29, 2014 Maxi, Thanks for the post. The vet very definitely thought the UTI was contributing to the cranky side. She said since she had had a UTI recently, she had much more empathy for the animals who had them and she wanted to get it cleared up. This makes the 4th time she has been treated since January. So hopefully the stronger and longer antibiotics will finally kick it. I figured the reason she wasn't eating was the antibiotics. I know how they make me feel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdawgs Posted December 29, 2014 Report Share Posted December 29, 2014 Four UTIs in less than one year is too many. Has the vet cultured Jade's urine to check for antibiotic sensitivity? It is rather odd that the vet has put the onus for antianxiety medications on the behavorist/trainer. Prescribing a drug is a medical decision. Of course the trainer/behaviorist should be involved, but ultimately it is the veterinarian's responsibility to make the diagnosis and prescribe the drug. Dosing these drugs can be tricky and there are drug interactions. I know of a dog that had a probable drug reaction to prozac because it was prescribed in combination with a flea collar containing a monoamine oxidase inhibitor. Luckily, the owner figured this out, not the prescribing vet. Some DVM behaviorists (equivalent to a human psychiastrist) do long distance consults. It is pricey, but they would be able to work with your vet to find the best drug/dose/combination for the dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDFOSTER Posted December 29, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 29, 2014 Blackdawg, So far no cultures. They have been treating her with the same cheap antibiotic that they have at the rescue. She went to a different antibiotic (supposed stronger) and for three weeks instead of two. Then she will investigate further if she is not clean. I gather Jade's urine in a laddle. first of the morning, so it never hits the ground so I know I am not contimainating it. She just said she can't evaluate on one quick visit, even based on what I tell her, that she needs anti- anxiety meds of any sort. She wants a behaviorist to evaluate and tell her that it is necessary before she will even consider prescribing as she is aware of all the issues in prescribing these drugs for a dog. Paula is going to write up her recommendations to the vet and the rescue. She has known Jade for the same amount of time I have, and I have kept her very much in the loop about what happens with Jade. Paula recommended several months back that we try anti-anxiety drugs so that Jade might be able to focus and not be so scared. I need to go back and look at what others have told me need to be the criteria for a vet behaviorist and see if there are any in Iowa that would be willing to not charge three arms and a leg to work with the vet. I know they paid a lot of money for their education and I respect that, but when you are working with a foster dog I would hope they would be a little kind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdawgs Posted December 30, 2014 Report Share Posted December 30, 2014 You may want to hold off on the anti-anxiety drugs until after the UTI is gone. If you start the anti-anxiety drug now, there is no way of knowing if an adverse reaction is due to the antibiotic or the antianxiety agent, and if there is improvement, it may be because the UTI is finally gone. Some antianxiety agents can cause loss of appetite. I would think of the resource guarding as anxiety, not bitchiness. The dog fears loosing something that it values, so goes into survival mode. My dog was a resource guarder--the behavior died after the anxiety was addressed. I never specifically addressed the resource guarding beyond not leaving high value toys lying around and feeding seperately. I've fostered and will never do it again (long story for straw that broke the camel's back). Personally, I am not comfortable having a dog in my home that does not receive vet care to the same standards of my personal dogs. Also, I did not like having all of the responsibility, but no control. For the last dog, I felt very taken advantage of by the rescue and already had $300-400 of my own money into the dog, not to mention the time sink, with no end in sight. So I called the rescue and told them to come get their dog. Ultimately he went to a good home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDFOSTER Posted December 30, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2014 Blackdawgs, I was thinking the same thing about the anxiety drugs to be started after the antibiotics and I think that is how it will actually work out by the time the holidays are over and everyone gets back into a routine. She also doesn't need anything else to suprress her appetite. I am getting her to eat some with plain yogart slathered all over it. Even though I sound crabby about this rescue I do think I am fortunate that if I speak up loudly, they do listen and they are very good about letting me take Jade to the vet or to get her the same kind of assistance I would give a dog that I had legal ownership of. But like all rescues, they are so inundated with dogs and puppies that I have to stay on top of things to make sure things get done. I never realized how many dogs go unaltered and how many puppies need rescuing. It makes me sad. Any toy with Jade is high value I have discovered the last several days as I closely watch her. Doesn't matter what it is. The boxer and the boston terrier get fed in the same room and there is absolutely no issue. The Shitzpoo in a different room...not because of a problem with good guarding but phobia about having feet on slick surface of any type. Jade is fed either in her crate or downstairs with me. So feeding doesn't have opportunities to guard. Been working with her on the Barkersville muzzle...only just holding it up and having her put her nose through it to get treats. I plan on working on that for several days before I ever try to strap it on. I tried working with the gentle leader across her nose and that sort of freaked her so I want to go very slowly with the muzzle. I can see why everyone recommended it over the other ones. Thanks to those who recommended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted December 30, 2014 Report Share Posted December 30, 2014 I've fostered and will never do it again (long story for straw that broke the camel's back). Personally, I am not comfortable having a dog in my home that does not receive vet care to the same standards of my personal dogs. Also, I did not like having all of the responsibility, but no control. For the last dog, I felt very taken advantage of by the rescue and already had $300-400 of my own money into the dog, not to mention the time sink, with no end in sight. So I called the rescue and told them to come get their dog. Ultimately he went to a good home. Blackdawgs, I'm sorry you had such a bad experience with the rescue you fostered for, but I sincerely hope you won't throw out the baby with the bath water. Some rescues go above and beyond to help the dogs that come into their care. Both the border collie rescues I volunteer with will spend thousands of dollars on the medical needs of dogs that most people wouldn't bother with. Sometimes those dogs come into rescue because their owners can't afford the veterinary care or simply won't spend the money on their dogs, or have been hit by a car and taken by animal control to the vet who'd otherwise put the ownerless or abandoned dog to sleep because of the extraordinary costs. I've seen a number of dogs whose medical expenses exceeded by many thousands of dollars the small adoption fee requested for the dog. So I hope you won't give up on rescues and fostering, but instead find one that you can feel good about and supported by. They are out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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