TxMom Posted October 10, 2015 Report Share Posted October 10, 2015 Yet another question as we work on finding a suitable dog. How would you determine whether an individual Border Collie is actually a threat to cats or just likely to be obnoxious (say, staring and following them around) and in need of training? We have two cats. They've been through three toddlers and a move and a new baby in the time we've had them, and once they have a little time to adjust, they're pretty cool characters. If something bothers them, they just walk away. We aimed for bombproof since we had young kids, and I expect they'll be pretty indifferent about a dog once they get past the initial shock. I'm willing to supervise and put some effort into teaching a dog not to be obnoxious if that's all it is, but we don't want to risk their safety. The Border Collie I had growing up respected a six-foot no-fly zone around any and all cats. We got him as a puppy and the first thing he saw when we brought him home and set him down was our cat, Bubba. Oreo gleefully took off running toward Bubba, who stood his ground, puffed up to twice his size, and swatted the insolent pup across the nose. Bubba had been declawed by a previous owner so no harm was done, but it was apparently quite a shock. Oreo never troubled another cat in his life. We had another Border Collie for a few years (he was given to us as an older dog) and he never bothered the cats either. So this is outside my experience, but we did have to teach Oreo not to bother chickens or horses and not to herd cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted October 10, 2015 Report Share Posted October 10, 2015 I don't remember if you're looking for a rescue or to get a puppy. If a rescue, many will be able to assess how a dog is with cats and will be able to tell you when you inquire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted October 10, 2015 Report Share Posted October 10, 2015 Before I brought Maid home I cut my cat's claws. He's used to it and doesn't fuss. When Maid arrived she went right up and stuck her nose in Mugen's face. He gave her such a swat. But now, even though I have to correct her for fixating periodically, Mugen hasn't needed to swat her for weeks. When I got Sugarfoot, (7 mos. old) I sat down on the floor and called her past the cat about a zillion times. Every time she walked by the cat without detouring toward him, she got a treat. If she didn't look at him she got two. She got it right away. (She got a "leave it!" if she veered toward him.) It didn't take more than a few sessions like that to give her the idea. Maid got the same routine, but she's got more prey drive, I think. She sometimes follows Mugen around. But she mostly keeps her nose to herself. Maid is so sensitive about corrections I mostly just look at her if she follows the cat. She backs off. But when Mugen gets the zoomies I sometimes have to tell Maid, "Leave it." Recently I discovered "That'll do!" will turn her away from the cat. She did have some experience with cattle before I got her, and she knows what it means. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted October 10, 2015 Report Share Posted October 10, 2015 I think that with careful management, MOST cat-dog relationships work out in the end (days, weeks or months later), even if they have a rocky start. And I believe that there are those dogs and cats that will NEVER get along. If you are a careful observer, I think that you should be able to tell within the trial period of your potential adopted dog whether or not things will work out. Of course, I would also be doing a lot of densensitization training, tethering the dog to me and employing time-outs and making sure that the cat had a safe place. It sounds like your cats should be fine even with an 'interested' dog. One thing I never allow is the dog chasing the cat. The dog gets a strong verbal correction and I will step towards the dog too. They get the idea. I believe that the cat can also influence the relationship. I have a cat that has a "kick-me" sign on her. When I fostered, several dogs would bother her when they first came into the house, but they never bothered the other cat. I had one dog that was so intent on getting at her, that I had to keep him on a leash, usually tethered to me, while he was free in the house. A couple of times, he got away from me and a chase ensued. Thankfully, although he was a lovely dog, he was adopted after about 3 weeks. I told the new owner that he was a cat chaser, but that was not to be an issue because he didn't have house cats. [i even found a puncture wound in my cat after he left the house.] When I checked with the new owner a few weeks later, he told me that Moss never bothered the barn cats even though he was free in the yard. Go figure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon's girl Posted October 10, 2015 Report Share Posted October 10, 2015 My cats actively seek out the dogs' attention, so I had to teach them how to behave appropriately around the cats. They aren't allowed to follow the cats and if the dogs are feeling rowdy, they have to lie down around the cats. As pups, each of them have been lightly swatted by one of the cats for impertinance, but they have never had a serious incounter since they learned respect at a very young age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TxMom Posted October 11, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2015 Thanks, y'all! We are working with a rescue, and they're helping us navigate the cat thing. I'm just trying to figure out if we need to avoid any dog who "shows an interest in herding cats" or if it's likely we could work things out. We did have someone visit with a very mannerly dog. One cat promptly headed upstairs, but stayed where he could see the dog rather than disappearing under a bed in another room. The other sniffed, fluffed up, and slunk away verrrry sloooowwwwly for further observation. He ended up on about the third step of the stairs, with the dog a few feet from the base. He watched carefully, but eventually started to look away occasionally and his fur returned to normal. When the dog started to approach, he hissed, but otherwise wasn't aggressive. I'm guessing he might not be averse to administering a swat if he felt it was necessary. The other cat, I'm not so sure, but he's always timid about anything new so it's hard to say how he'll adjust with time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted October 11, 2015 Report Share Posted October 11, 2015 If one is rescuing a dog, I think my criteria would be how intense the dog's interest is in the cats. Is s/he fixating and stalking? Is s/he reluctant to take a call off? Do you have to repeatedly call the dog back or get the dog's attention off the cat? Does the dog's interest change depending on whether the cat is indoors or out? Does s/he seem inclined to dash after the cat if it moves suddenly or runs away? In a puppy I'd not worry, but in a grown dog, that would be something I'd squint at.I'm saying this from having a dog I've raised from 8 weeks old who's now 6 years old and *still* can't leave cats alone when in the house! But our cats aren't afraid of swatting her and she has no real ill intent, ignores them when outside, so we deal with it.~ Gloria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCjetta Posted October 21, 2015 Report Share Posted October 21, 2015 I think it depends on the individual dog. My first dog (adopted at 1.5yrs) was a cat chaser, squirrel killer etc. Once I moved away from home with my other dog, I ended up with 2 cats. I was able to train the first dog to ignore the cats when she'd come to visit. At first she still stared at them too much and if they made sudden movements she'd lunge but if I yelled no she'd stop (I think the big thing here was that the dog was already trained and respected me) I ended up trusting her fairly well with the cats in the end. My sister adopted an 8 month old lab and they had 2 cats. The introductions didn't go great as her cats were timid and ran and then the dog would get super excited and chase the cats and seemed like he wanted to get them. We brought the dog to my house with my one cat who didn't run and the dog was just super excited to sniff and see the cat and wanted to play - so we determined he wasn't chasing her cats aggressively. They have had him 2 years now and he is fine with the cats now. The first 6 months or so he would still chase the more nervous of the cats when it would see him and run away but now he ignores her. I had my 2 cats when I got my current border collie. She was fine with them but a bit herdy at them. They have both been gone for the past 2 years and she has developed into a fixated monster when she sees or hears cats. Huge pupils, fixated, completely vibrating body, slowly creeping closer to them. I work at a vet clinic and she's there a lot. Now, if she sees a cat and it gives her any aggression (swatting), she will go after it (the same way she will go after a cow if it turns on her). I suspect she's doing a form of herding type behaviour with the cats but because she has the potential to bite I dont think I'd ever trust her with a cat again. If she knows a cat is in a room, she will fixate at the door (if she was allowed), for hours without losing her obsessiveness. There is also nothing (food, toys etc) that will redirect her from her fixating (you could probably literally drag her away by her tail and she'd still keep staring). I'd say a dog that has behaviours like this would be a heck of a lot harder to train to leave a cat alone than one that just seems mildly interested or curious but will call off or ignore the cat once its out of sight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cass C Posted October 21, 2015 Report Share Posted October 21, 2015 Lyka was trained to ignore the cats, but Lily is really curious and has had a hard time with that concept so I allow her to watch the cats from at least 2 feet away. She also easily calls off the cat watching. However for both dogs cats are out of sight out of mind. If you have the space consider a 'cats only' room, where there is a gate or something not allowing dog access, but allowing cats to easily come and go. Have the litterbox and food in there and some kind of a cat bed/box. That gives the cats a place to feel completely safe and decompress if the dog is bothering them. I think you're making a great choice getting a rescue for your situation as it sounds like you have a lot to think about in your future dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrecar Posted October 26, 2015 Report Share Posted October 26, 2015 I would have been afraid to get a cat had I not been able to observe Hannah's behavior with a neighbor's very dog-savvy cat, which insisted on coming into my yard to stalk wild rabbits nesting under my shed. Hannah was not raised with cats, and I am not what you would call cat savvy. But Hannah was easily called off (the cat would probably have nailed her had she not left it alone when asked), so I thought she would be fine if I brought home a kitten. If I were ever to adopt another dog though, I would go with a rescue that "cat tested" the dogs they take in, as some of them do. I must say I am enjoying cat ownership. I love purring! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TxMom Posted October 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2015 The cats will definitely have their own zone. Our house is set up well for that, actually. All the bedrooms are upstairs, including the master bedroom with a large window that gets afternoon sun. The cats love lounging up there. Everything else is downstairs, so downstairs is where all the people are all day -- and therefore, I assume, where the dog will want to be. Gate across the bottom of the stairs, and we're set. Of course, I'm assuming the gate will be more of a visual reminder than an actual insurmountable barrier. In any case, upstairs access for the dog will be by invitation only. We were talking about a young dog who showed a significant interest in cats, but it turned out that as they had him longer that interest and accompanying behavior grew more intense and definitely outside our comfort zone. I guess at least the question answered itself. Since then they've turned up a good prospect for us and are bringing her for a visit this weekend. She lives with cats in her foster home and is very respectful. I'm crossing my fingers she'll be "The One." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cass C Posted October 27, 2015 Report Share Posted October 27, 2015 I'd still give the cats a room that is 100% dog free 100% of the time, but that's really up to you It also avoids the issue of snackings on litterbox 'goodies'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TxMom Posted October 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2015 The litterbox is upstairs in the master bathroom for that very reason. As of right now, the plan is to have the dog sleep downstairs in a crate (I'll plug in a baby monitor just in case), at least to start with. I hate not to bring him or her into the bedroom, but since we first got the cats the master bedroom has always been their safe place and I don't think it would be wise to change that. Eventually, when everyone is settled in and if the cats and the dog have a harmonious relationship, we may reevaluate. But at least initially, and possibly indefinitely, I think everything will go better if that room is dog-free. I think they'll also have the rest of the upstairs 95% of the time. But I could see bringing the dog up to the kids' rooms for bedtime stories, on a leash or otherwise under control, if the cats aren't freaked out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cass C Posted October 27, 2015 Report Share Posted October 27, 2015 That makes sense. I guess I just assumed the dog would be sleeping in a human bedroom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TxMom Posted October 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2015 Without the cats in the picture, a human bedroom would definitely be my choice. But I think it'll be a fair balance of everyone's needs -- after all, downstairs is still comfortable (not like we're kicking the dog out in the backyard), and it'll only be for eight hours overnight when everyone's sleeping. Eventually I'm thinking the crate won't be necessary overnight so the dog can have his or her pick of comfortable spots downstairs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D'Elle Posted October 30, 2015 Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 I'd still give the cats a room that is 100% dog free 100% of the time, but that's really up to you It also avoids the issue of snackings on litterbox 'goodies'. I have a cats-only room, where a nice cat bed is and their litter boxes, fenced off from the dogs with a doggy gate. The cats can retreat there if they want or need to. I also have a huge cat post with a platform on the top of it so the cats can go up there if they want to get away from the dogs but don't want to leave the center of the action. Both are good resources to have if you have cats and dogs together. And I train a "leave it" so if I think the cats are being too annoyed I can call the dog off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Coyote Posted October 30, 2015 Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 Do you put the gate up off the ground a few inches so the cats can run under it but the dogs can't? I do that with one of my customer's who has an Old English Sheepdog. That way the cats can run and slide under the gate and get away from her if she gets too rambunctious. It also keeps her out of the food and the cat boxes. That gate is a $10 cheapy from Walmart and it works great. I put it up one time I was taking care of all the pets and the owners love it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cass C Posted October 30, 2015 Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 My gate is a fancy pet store one with a little door that opens in the bottom for the cats to get through without having to jump it or squeeze under it. It also closes if I have small dogs over for some reason. We were using a cheap gate slightly off the ground, but I have a cat with vision problems that kept running into it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrecar Posted October 31, 2015 Report Share Posted October 31, 2015 Thanks for the cat gate suggestion. I just found one on Amazon with a little door. I need one for my cat room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrecar Posted October 31, 2015 Report Share Posted October 31, 2015 Am I the only one with a cat that pesters the dogs? She isn't really bad about it, but a few times Hannah has left the room to get away from her rambunctiousness. ETA: Just wanted to add that the cat doesn't pursue her when she leaves the room. It is just that while playing, the cat might try to engage her a bit--nothing serious or worrying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon's girl Posted October 31, 2015 Report Share Posted October 31, 2015 All of my cats pester the dogs. They will all lie in hiding and pounce on an unsuspecting tail or try to take out a running leg. If the dogs are napping the cats will sometimes grab an eyebrow. And my JRT knows she is fair game in a hunt. Be afraid, very afraid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrecar Posted October 31, 2015 Report Share Posted October 31, 2015 All of my cats pester the dogs. They will all lie in hiding and pounce on an unsuspecting tail or try to take out a running leg. If the dogs are napping the cats will sometimes grab an eyebrow. And my JRT knows she is fair game in a hunt. Be afraid, very afraid. I guess my cat isn't such an anomaly then. I was surprised to see her actually playing interactively with the 6lb Chihuahua; and it surprised me that she came into the house with no fear of Hannah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon's girl Posted October 31, 2015 Report Share Posted October 31, 2015 I try to always raise puppies with adult cats and kittens with adult dogs. The last time, I got Micah and 2 rescue kittens within a month of each other, so I had to be extra careful that one rambunctious BC didn't hurt the tiny kittens. He seemed to understand, just like he does when he moves the lamb flock. Otherwise, he doesn't ever strike me as a dog with a lot of sensitivity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D'Elle Posted October 31, 2015 Report Share Posted October 31, 2015 Do you put the gate up off the ground a few inches so the cats can run under it but the dogs can't? The cats just jump over the gate. It's easy for them; they are cats. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted October 31, 2015 Report Share Posted October 31, 2015 The cats just jump over the gate. It's easy for them; they are cats. :-) Sure, that's true, but isn't there a danger that a dog seeing a cat hop over a gate might be tempted to follow? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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