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Here's a conundrum:

My training in training (limited as it is) has always been based on the idea that it is best to give a command once- or at least that's the goal :). Some trainers train "sit" with the expectation that dog should sit until "released," or told to do something else. (Building up time for that command is a key aspect of this approach). Others add a "stay" command to prolong the sit/down/stand behaviors.

 

For prolonged behaviors do you use one command and expect it to go on, or do you repeat the word to keep it going? Why or why not?

 

Currently, I tell my dog "heel" and he's supposed to stay in heel mode until released. However, in distracting situations, I do find that by repeating the command (sweetly, and with praise) it can serve (?) as a pre-emptive "reminder" that he's still in "heel" mode.

 

Is this "bad?" Am I diluting the power of the command word or am I helping the dog to succeed?

 

I was reading Bobbie Anderson's Building Blocks for Performance (admired by handlers in many activities, including herding and agility). She's a proponent of using a variety of praise words, and corrections, and of using command words only once.

 

But in herding, there are many examples of repeated commands. Sometimes it is for ongoing behavior as in the Derek Scrimgeour and Andy Nikless DVDs in which the "Away" is given and then "Way, Way, Way..." to keep the dog going round.

 

Other times a command word is repeated to convey praise or correction for what the dog is already doing...? I guess that's the part that is most confusing to me: repeating a command as a correction when the dog is already complying with the behavior.

 

Example: I audited an Aled Owen clinic once. There were several dogs who were not lying down right away, or who were "cheating" by taking several steps in and then lying down. He instructed the students to sternly repeat "lie down!, lie down, lie down!" while walking forward, through the sheep, into the dog's space, and to continue issuing the command, while standing over the dog, even after the dog had downed...huh? :huh:

 

 

 

 

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I usually don't repeat commands, but there are situations in which I will. If a dog has had its focus shifted by a sudden or scary event, I will repeat the command as a re-framing device. I do this with the distractable puppy too.

 

I feel that if a command is obliterated from the dog's "mental buffer" by a sudden, overwhelming distraction, the repetition is, from the dog's viewpoint, a "first command." I feel that this is especially true with the fearful dog or pup. While my ultimate goal is to not ever repeat commands, it is unfair to expect a dog to respond properly to a command it doesn't remember getting.

 

I will use the command under similar conditions as praise. A bouncy puppy who sits promptly can be praised with a heartfelt "Good sit!" to remind it what it's being praised for and to thereby prevent it breaking out of the sit in an excess of happiness for getting praised.

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Years ago I was on the "the dog should sit until released on just the sit cue", etc. train, but I got off. I find a "stay" cue not only works better for my dogs, but it just makes more logical sense to me. So, I will say, "sit" . . . "stay". Or, "sit" . . . "wait". And I have practiced giving these cues in a pleasant and conversational tone so I don't bark them at my dog!! :D That is not considered "more than one cue". It's a sit cue and a stay cue.

 

You choose what works for you. As far as "heel" goes, I might repeat my "heel" cue from time to time, or "side" for the right. Or I might bridge the behavior with something like "gooooooood" or whatever. This isn't a "correction" - it is support for the behavior in progress.

 

When people advocate using only one cue, they are usually talking about a single cue for a single behavior. So, one "twirl" to get the dog to twirl, instead of saying, "twirltwirltwirltwirl" as the dog is going around.

 

But with sustained behaviors, like heeling, supporting the behavior with additional verbals is not really considered the same thing. You won't dilute a cue that way.

 

But when it comes down to it - find what works for you. I used to be a whole lot more uptight about this. Now I just want my dog to be able to perform reliably on cues that make sense to both myself and the dog. Other than that, I couldn't care less what anyone else says is "right" or "wrong".

 

Now, if I'm competing in a performance venue, like wcfo Freestyle, I will try to cue in the manner that you need to in order to be able to qualify (although my dog's well being always comes first). But outside of competition, and where it doesn't matter . . . find what you and your dog prefer.

 

I do something else that some people have a serious issue with - I release using cues, not always a release. So, my dog is in a start line stay, and I say, "Jump" instead of "OK - Jump". Horrors!! Actually all that matters is that you are consistent so the dog understands what to expect. Again - no one way here. I have better things to do with my life than stress over adding in an extra release word every time I am going to release the dog into a different behavior. Seriously!

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Example: I audited an Aled Owen clinic once. There were several dogs who were not lying down right away, or who were "cheating" by taking several steps in and then lying down. He instructed the students to sternly repeat "lie down!, lie down, lie down!" while walking forward, through the sheep, into the dog's space, and to continue issuing the command, while standing over the dog, even after the dog had downed...huh? :huh:

I don't have a hard and fast philosophy WRT training. I think I lean a bit toward what Root Beer said. I try to use a command only once. If I am in training mode, and the dog responds to one cue, he gets loads of praise and a treat (m aybe a jackpot). If he needs a second cue, he will get a "good dog", but that is it. I try to build value for responding to the single command. I don't stress too much about it as long as I don't become that person that says sit, sit, sit, sit etc. before their dog decides to maybe sit.

 

Before I ramble on too much about my probably less than optimal training technique, I want to respond to the "lie down, lie down ...." situation described above. I attended a Tommy Wilson clinic last December, and he talked about how some dogs are really stressed out by the technique described above -- saying lie down, then if the dog doesn't obey, the handler says the command again and puts pressure on the dog by marching towards it. He says that some dogs get so stressed by that pressure that they don't lie down or will freeze in a sort of hunched position. He suggested trying to do exactly the opposite - actually move back (thus removing pressure) while telling them to lie down. I actually saw it work with one dog at the clinic. I think that this technique is another tool in the toolbox and can be very useful for certain?/many dogs. I have tried both methods with my dogs (asking for a lie down but without sheep), and I find that the backing away works better when the dog is a bit unsure if they really want to lie down. I can MAKE the pressure technique work too. It is an experiment in progress.

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I guess I mix the two. I never really thought about it, bad me! I guess I have a distinction in my mind between "active" behaviors and "passive" behaviors. I know not all dogs can/will make a distinction, but it's worked for Keeper and I.

 

I view "passive" behaviors as being more of positions. Sit, down, get back, touch, stand, yadda yadda are things I'll only say once and will expect them to be held. I'll give mild corrections, so I'll say "ah-ah" if one of those is broken, rather than repeat the cue. It doesn't have to be a correction even, I can say "ah-ah, go back" in a cheerful voice and Keeper will happily go back to whatever he was last doing.

 

I'll repeat commands for some ongoing activities. At this point Keeper's heel doesn't need repeating, but I would repeat heel during the learning process. I'll repeat the cue for back, limp, pretty, handstand, orbit (at this point, he's getting close to only needing the cue once and repeating the behavior until I reward him), and a couple more I can't think of.

 

I also readily use "wait" though, so I'm pretty flexible. :) I'm not afraid to use wait paired with a behavior that I wish to eventually be a one-time-only cue. I also use it in situations where I need to reinforce a difficult behavior. We're practicing 2o2o stuff, and he still needs a "wait" to hold the position if I'm running away from him or something.

 

tl;dr Use what works for you and your dog. :)

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Yeah, for me it just really depends.


Was the dog really not paying attention/didn't hear me? I'll get the dog's attention and repeat.


Or was the dog staring at me in seeming incomprehension while I say 'sit'? If that's the case I'm not repeating. I'm not repeating because I'm going to poison the cue or turn the cute into 'sit-sit-sit' or whatever.


Is it a longer duration than usual? I'll repeat it.

Did the dog break something I know they're capable of? I won't and I'll reset without a word.


It really just varies.

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I agree that you have to do what works. But what ever you do, there has to be consistency and consequences. With my young dog, I poisoned the "down" by asking for it at the wrong time and then made matters worse by repeating it over and over again with an escalating voice. besides not trusting me, he also learned that he didn't really have to respond to what I asked for. It has caused a lot of problems, not the least is damaging our relationship. I have been working hard to fix that ever since and suspect I will be working on it for a long time.

 

Interestingly, my oldest dog, who I do agility with, is the only one of my dogs that knows the words "stay" and "wait". he never had a good stay or wait until I stopped using the words. what I found is that a sit is a sit, a down is a down, and a heel is a heel no matter how long they do it, as long as they understand the behavior. When I stopped using the word stay, I invested more time in my dog's understanding of control positions (sit down, stand) and the value in them. When training, I knew my criteria and worked to build understanding of it with him. Soon, it only required one cue to get a long sit or down; or for him to back up across the room, of maintain heel position. The dogs don't need the extra commands, they just need to know what is expected of them.

 

The same goes for flanking sheep. I know a very successful open handler who believed that when you gave a flank command to a dog, that they should continue to go in that direction until asked to stop. For outruns, she taught her dogs both flank commands and a noise. When she gave the flank command, she expected her dogs to go until she stopped them. With the noise, the dog could stop on their own when sent for an outrun. this way she maintained the integrity of what she was asking for.

 

anyway, short story long, consistency is all that matters.

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Dear Doggers,

 

Most sheepdog commands "Down", "That'l do", "Walk up" have a range of meanings depending on work circumstances and handler intonation. Indeed, I'm not sure that "command" (as conventionally understood) is an accurate name for these locutions. Usually, one "asks" and the dog "answers". That said, most handlers do have a whistle/intonation that means "LiedownoffyourfeetNOW!" which is the traditional obedience trainer's "command".

 

Since the dogs don't seem to have much problem understanding these subtleties of meaning I think the traditional "One command, given once, enforced" mantra derives from (a) the roots of obedience training in the 19th century Prussian police and ( B) an understandable pet dog trainer's reaction to the novice students who don't really believe they have the right to tell their dog what to do. The mantra helps cure that problem - it's a white lie.

 

Donald McCaig

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I think there is a difference in obedience commands and working stock commands. Once the dog know the obedience commands I try to use once so that the dog knows to do whatever I ask the first time I ask it and not the 3rd. As others have said to repeat and remind the dog if an extended exercise I think is fair.

 

On stock there can things the stock is doing that the dog instincts are telling him one thing and I want something else. I do not mind repeating myself there to let the dog know I understand what he wants to do but I still need him to do this. In training stages I will repeat the flanks as the dog is going around but do not for the older dogs. I will add a ssshhh if I want the dog going past balance but I want to maintain the dog feeling that balance and stopping at that point on his own. Some dogs are more comfortable standing than a lie down when working and I am fine with that. I have a dog that gets a big tense when asked to down so I tend not to ask for it, he does much better standing. I believe he was 3 before he would accept the fact that I needed a down in some situations so I think you have to work with the individual dog and not have a attitude that they have to work a certain way. I think releasing pressure when asking to lie down by backing up is a great way to teach it. Coming forward is a way to correct if they do not lie down and repeating it is also a correction. I think you can come forward with different INTENT the same way you can use Tone. You can come to help them lie down and reinforce it nicely or you can forward in a way that the dog is aware it is a correction.

 

Taking off pressure backing up often allows the dog to think, relax and lie down easier. Even leaning into a dog as you ask it to lie down will effect some, standing straight will help. The same way taking pressure off when you send them allows them to go more freely. Many people step into a dog to send it putting pressure on a dog, some dogs feel that pressure and hesitate to go or go to wide because of it. If you step to the opposite side as you ask your dog or even lean away from the dog it will feel that and it does make a difference.

 

We humans are very often not aware of our non verbal cues but the dogs are.

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Like when training children :) one command works better ONCE the dog has learned the command. While learning, you can "ask, tell,demand" using the command word, and there may be situations when working that require the same approach.

 

Then there is the negative reinforcement method of reinforcing the down (once it is learned IMO) by adding pressure and repeating the command to get the down. This one can be tricky for many people because they don't add pressure (the reinforce) and then once the dog is down they don't release the pressure immediately, but if done well it works quite nicely.

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Thanks to everyone for sharing ideas about this, and for articulating the ways in which you dance in that space between the Prussian police and that person who (as gvc border puts it) says “sit, sit, sit.”

 

It makes sense to repeat "commands" to re-frame, re-set, or to add praise/encouragement for behavior in progress.

Tricky at times (especially in early stages) to work in the subtleties without “poisoning” those request words (as dsmbc shares).

 

Root Beer- yes, I also release using cues- I usually only use the word “release” when no other request is being made –it’s like “free-choice” time. Is there a strict protocol for cuing or repeating commands in freestyle competition?

 

Kingfisher- not sure what 2o2o stuff is? But I like really the “yadda, yadda” command—think I might use this to label my guy’s occasional alarm barking in the car—I’ll just say “Yadda Yadda, Otto” in a bored, but cheery voice when there's a trigger, and I’m sure he will be quiet, and disengage to take a treat. :)

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About the adding vs lessening pressure to get a lie down-- I see that it would depend on the dog, context, learning stage etc.

 

What I didn’t understand was why a person would continue to walk forward saying “Lie down” AFTER the dog had lain down. It seems like that is deliberately not releasing the pressure. Shouldn’t pressure be released as soon as the dog gives or complies?

 

Is this possibly related to the idea of a "double correction"?

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I think there is a difference in obedience commands and working stock commands. Once the dog know the obedience commands I try to use once so that the dog knows to do whatever I ask the first time I ask it and not the 3rd. As others have said to repeat and remind the dog if an extended exercise I think is fair.

 

On stock there can things the stock is doing that the dog instincts are telling him one thing and I want something else. I do not mind repeating myself there to let the dog know I understand what he wants to do but I still need him to do this. In training stages I will repeat the flanks as the dog is going around but do not for the older dogs. I will add a ssshhh if I want the dog going past balance but I want to maintain the dog feeling that balance and stopping at that point on his own. Some dogs are more comfortable standing than a lie down when working and I am fine with that. I have a dog that gets a big tense when asked to down so I tend not to ask for it, he does much better standing. I believe he was 3 before he would accept the fact that I needed a down in some situations so I think you have to work with the individual dog and not have a attitude that they have to work a certain way. I think releasing pressure when asking to lie down by backing up is a great way to teach it. Coming forward is a way to correct if they do not lie down and repeating it is also a correction. I think you can come forward with different INTENT the same way you can use Tone. You can come to help them lie down and reinforce it nicely or you can forward in a way that the dog is aware it is a correction.

 

Taking off pressure backing up often allows the dog to think, relax and lie down easier. Even leaning into a dog as you ask it to lie down will effect some, standing straight will help. The same way taking pressure off when you send them allows them to go more freely. Many people step into a dog to send it putting pressure on a dog, some dogs feel that pressure and hesitate to go or go to wide because of it. If you step to the opposite side as you ask your dog or even lean away from the dog it will feel that and it does make a difference.

 

We humans are very often not aware of our non verbal cues but the dogs are.

Denise,

Thanks so much for this thoughtful post. It really helped clarify some things I was finding confusing in herding vs obedience.

 

Also it was a good summary of different intents and purposes in the use of body pressure (with or without verbal cues). I guess I had a more simplistic idea about applying pressure (posture, proximity) to push a dog out or down.

 

With my pup: at 10 mos one trainer said he was *not* sensitive to body pressure. But later, when more sessions in a round pen turned into mindless, frantic circling, others offered a different interpretation: which was that the context (pen, person) was actually *too* pressurized for him. So the correct interpretation is important in making decisions about how to train.

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What I didn’t understand was why a person would continue to walk forward saying “Lie down” AFTER the dog had lain down. It seems like that is deliberately not releasing the pressure. Shouldn’t pressure be released as soon as the dog gives or complies?

 

Is this possibly related to the idea of a "double correction"?

 

I would think it could be one of two possibilities. Either the trainer has gotten pissed off at the dog and is doing the wrong thing by "crawling" all over the dog to make a point (we've all done it at some point) or the trainer is working with a dog who fully well understands what "lie down" means and is seriously trying to make a point.

 

For example, with the youngsters I'm training now, I pretty much ask while releasing pressure. Sometimes I have to take a step toward them to remind them, "Hey, listen to me." If, on the other hand, my 9 y.o. fully trained (open trial level) dog were seriously blowing me off on a lie down then I might well continue putting pressure on after he complies just to make a point. That's something that would happen only rarely, at best, but it could happen, especially if his noncompliance was causing a problem with the stock. In other words, that should be a last choice for a dog who fully understands what's being asked of it--it shouldn't be a tool of a novice at all, in my opinion, because it could be misused, but of course as with all training there are nuances and subtleties that depend entirely on the dog and situation.

 

Regarding the pressure of a round pen, the space can be too small for some youngsters, and honestly no one should really need to stay in the round pen for an extended period of time (there will be exceptions, of course), but if a round pen is too much pressure, there's nothing wrong with moving a youngster to a larger area if you can keep things under control. At the last place I lived in NC before moving back to VA I had no round pen, but I did have a couple of small pastures (~ an acre or slightly less). I started all youngsters/beginner dogs there using a trained dog as a "perimeter dog." The trained dog's job was simply to keep the sheep contained in a smaller space within the larger pasture so that they couldn't outrun the youngster or create chase situations. The trained dog doesn't interfere with the work in any way--just helps by peeling the sheep off the fence if needed or preventing them from bolting for the opposite corner of the little pasture. But at some point all of my dogs are expected to work in tight, high pressure situations, so although I might move a youngster out of a smaller space if the pressure it too great and causing problems, eventually they will go back to small spaces and have to learn to deal with that pressure.

 

J.

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Root Beer- yes, I also release using cues- I usually only use the word “release” when no other request is being made –it’s like “free-choice” time. Is there a strict protocol for cuing or repeating commands in freestyle competition?

 

No. I run into that on the Agility side. Some who insist that when you lead out, you must say, "OK! Jump!" or "OK! Tunnel!" to release. Never just "Jump" or "Tunnel" (or whatever is first or next) to release.

 

It would be ridiculously awkward in Freestyle to release the dog every time you are moving into something new, even if the dog is stationary, because you use scads of cues in Freestyle and I usually try to plan it so I have to actually cue as little as possible! And it may well be the Freestyle influence that makes having to say a release before an obstacle cue in Agility (from a sit or the end of a contact or something, not as the dog is running) seem burdensome. There is no harm in it, and I will do it if an instructor is insisting on it (it's not a battle worth fighting at all, and my own instructor is fine with what I do), but in real life I usually just cue the obstacle when I want the dog to go.

 

OBVIOUSLY, if I say, "jump" to my dog while he or she is in a sit-stay, it means, "you are released form the sit, start moving, and take the jump"!! I don't need to throw "OK" in there.

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I have seen the importance of a release word when leading out. Sometimes for very high drive dogs (usually sport collies), who don't have a specific release word will just start running the second they think they heard an obstacle word as opposed to a definite consistent word that always means start running now but not a second before. Some dogs are more stable and not as amped so they are fine with just saying the obstacle.

 

I also prefer to use a release word off contacts in agility, because I've seen way too many dogs miss contacts because they just keep running. Again not all dogs, but some need that consistency.

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I'm all for personal preference and what works for an individual dog and team. If a release word works for you, awesome!!

 

I take issue with those who insist that every team needs the same cue protocol. What makes logical sense to one handler may be very burdensome to another. And what is clear to one dog might muddy the waters for another.

 

Last night in Agility, I told my instructor that I would need to make sure I didn't cut my line too much after a rear cross, or Tessa would have gone into the tunnel instead of onto the dogwalk. She asked why I didn't give her a verbal cue. On discrims, if I give a cue after the line is set, Tessa will turn off the line, thinking I am telling her to change what she is doing, and take the other piece of equipment! So I have to set the correct line and shut up! Or give the verbal for the next obstacle prior to her takeoff for the jump (not a good choice this time since the path to the dogwalk wasn't super clear that early).

 

That's a Tessa quirk. It won't effect most dogs. I would never tell someone else that they were not allowed to use a verbal there because my dog benefits from not having one. My instructor had no issue with me not using a verbal there (she just wanted to know why I didn't use one). Others might have. Now on that one, I would have stood my ground a good bit more. A release word on a start line stay might be excess verbiage to me, but it won't confuse my dog. Throwing a verbal cue at Tessa at a place that will send her off course is confusing, so it's very different.

 

Cue protocols can vary from handler to handler and dog to dog. That's perfectly OK!

I say each handler should have the freedom to figure out what works. (No problem with suggestions from instructors, just with insistence at times)

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If I tell me dogs to sit, they are expected to sit until I say "alright." Same for down, up, (jump up onto, say, a hay bale.) load up (pickup bed) etc. If I say stay, that means stay where you are but you can move around a little bit, sit, down, whatever.

 

If I tell one of my dogs to lay down and they don't listen, I'll usually keep repeating it until they do and then they get a "good dog" and a calm rub. Nothing exciting at all. Then I'll go back and basically retrain the command from scratch and we might practice pretty strongly for the next few days. I hate repeating commands but I don't want them to learn that they can just ignore it and I won't make them do it.

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Alfreda

 

I would think Aled may have been making it very clear to the dog that lie down Meant Lie Down and he was very displeased. It is difficult to day since we were not there. Often things are taken out of context at clinics and people see trainer x doing such and such to one dog or maybe a couple dogs and they come away thinking that is the way to go. The problem is it is meant for that moment that dog and that situation. That is one of the reasons why clinicians do not allow video taping because a bunch of things can be misinterpreted. It even happens if you are there sitting watching. The trainers like Aled have worked with Thousands of dogs and see and do things that no one else can repeat as he can. That is where asking lots and lots of questions is helpful because you may see one thing and the trainer may see and feel something different. I would say most folks that come to Aled are trialing and dogs know quite a bit but there are areas the dog and handler need help on. Many many dogs do not stop when asked and that is a pet peeve with many of the UK guys because they know a step or two can cost them points at a trial. Dogs are allowed to practice the wrong thing so bad habit are formed and it takes more of an impression to make a correction and begin to break a habit. We put lots of pressure on the clinician to make a change in a short couple days so they do things that they would not do at home or with dogs they will see every day for weeks.

 

I have Jack Knox come every year for clinics and that provides quite a bit consistency for the dogs and handlers. They begin to pick up more subtle things seeing the same trainer once or twice every year. Jack told me a couple years ago that one of my dogs was uncomfortable being close to sheep. This dog was 3 and we worked often doing all the chores, he was fast and keen and would loose his head a bit but he was improving. I dont remember the exact situation when Jack told me that but I do remember my reaction. I thought what the heck - this dog works every day with me - what the heck is he talking about. I asked him later but he couldn't give me specifics. For the next year I would think of that. Yes he gripped every once in a while, yes he was tense in corners and along fences would rather hold sheep than bring them out. Jack often takes older dogs back in the round pen to work on things so that is where I went getting him to scoop sheep off the sides. Ten minutes in the round pen can do wonders. Then went in to corners doing more work up close and keeping him calm and thinking then we worked on shedding and getting him to walk in the middle of a large group of ewes and making his way all on his own. That was tough for him to walk calmly through the group of 60 ewes crowded in a small space and just make them move with his eye as he walked to me on the other side. He was obviously nervous. I finally understood what Jack had seen, that concern the dog had being in that situation where he was surrounded by sheep. Heck I dont like them surrounding me either. We worked on him being surrounded by a small group of lambs that move easy out of his way and worked our way back to the ewes. Still not his favorite thing but it does it now with more confidence and lots less tension. Just the other day I asked him to do it for me because I need to catch a ewe and he was great.

So the guys like Jack and Aled can see things that the rest of us miss.

 

As for your dog - I think often they start with us - the person- not being in their picture. They are all about sheep and us moving this way or that does not really matter. Then at some point the light switched is flipped and we are part of the picture. Now our presence and pressure matter. I find dogs that are orbiting are not thinking. Are they concerned or are they just avoiding something or are they not thinking at all and do not feel the sheep?? Different things can help from putting the dog and sheep in a small pen and getting him comfortable just calmly walking around the outside of the pen pushing them toward the middle even if we have to walk with them then walking and stopping on balance as we are on the opposite side. Taking the dog to a larger area can relax them as well but you have to come back and address the issue of working close at some point. The right sheep make all the difference in the world also. I expose all my pups early to corners and pushing themselves in tight places, just a bit of work and then we come back to it off and on. Just give them a taste so they know it is not big deal.

 

Very possibly your pup began with you not in his picture and then was concerned for whatever reason. The interpretations may not have been wrong, the situation very possibly changed. You have to keep in mind clinics and all training is a snapshot in time. It is that dog in that situation that moment. Problems arise when people carry what particular thing they "learned" at the clinic and do it for the next 6 mo or year. It is hard to get a clear total picture of the end/ finished product/ what ideal is in your head and measure things against that and see what needs work and know how to change things for the better. I try to have people work a dog that is father along than theirs so the feel what is should be or closer to what is supposed to be. Then you have to take the individual dog into consideration and make a judgement call of what and when to correct or do you let the dog sort that out for himself. Even Jack will say he does not know the answer but he watched the dogs as he tries different things and judging things as they happen. He says he never trains with a plan but works the dog and sees areas that need work. Tomorrow he may see something different so he moves to that.

I think that is what so neat about herding and training herding dogs. Every dog and situation is new. That is why I have come to the conclusion that I need to teach my dogs to always think, teach them to respect me and the sheep and then allow them to trust their instincts and trust my dogs. Those are the tings that allow us to do good work and get the job done. It is not so much to take the flank I say or stop right there - it is about attitude, respect and instinct. Points on the trial field are indeed lost by not being precise but at home I need the dogs well out of sight and without instruction so I train to accomplish that.

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