Training an off switch

[dsmbc]

I agree, run from this breeder. A few years back, when I was considering potential pups, I went to a breeder who was recommended to me by some agility folks, though they all said their dogs were working bred. When I went, She told me her next planned breeding were high drive dogs that may not have an off switch. I spent some time with the bitch and dog and have to say, there was something not quite right with these dogs. It was also clear that they were not working bred dogs.

 

needless to say, I took a pass on this breeder.

 

IMO, breeding (or buying a pup) for "high drive" is just crazy. Too many breeders mistake crazy, bad behavior as high drive. High drive is about a work ethic.

[rushdoggie]

To me an "off switch" is a dog who has self control.

 

I think self control is 90% taught, not so much often by "training" but by not giving into demand behaviors.

 

Some dogs are naturally pushier and craftier than others. Thus, they get good at getting what they want. Some people are less savvy than others.

 

My dear husband is a person who gives in to demand behaviors. Its not that he does it on purpose or gives in when he gets tired of it, its that he absentmindedly does things when cued. The dogs figured this out within 2 weeks of us moving in together. He's doing something, dog is at the door, let them out. They were just out 15 minutes ago? That never occurs to him. Doing yard work, dog lays Jolly Ball at his feet, he kicks it. Hes not even aware he is doing it half the time.

 

I now have to put Jolly Ball in the shed when I garden or it plops on top of whatever I am doing every 5 minutes. Can't really get mad at the dog who has been "trained" to do this.

 

When we got Argos (the Border Collie) as a puppy, I had to instruct him carefully as he was only working p/t and was home a lot, and give him a daily schedule that included puppy time outs. Argos is not a manipulative dog. He is only a teensy bit pushy and only about a few specific things so it was easy to show DH that he needed to say no. He is excitable at times, but with regular activity breaks and routines he grew up to be one of those dogs who sleeps like 20 hours a day unless we are doing something.

 

When we got Jasper (the Papillon), I mistakenly thought that DH was "adequately trained." I was wrong, because Jasper is one tough and pushy little cookie. He is also busy, active and persistent. I had to actually train him to accept that No Not Now means "if you keep bugging me you will earn some crate time." Honestly, he was exhausting as a puppy. Adorable and lots of fun, but exhausting. He would be a nightmare in a pet home and with his size and natural pushiness he would have been a dog surrendered to rescue because he is not a sweet little companion friend they wanted when they got a Papillon.

 

Thank heaven he is grown up a lot and might actually be an adult now. But yeah, he had to be TAUGHT.

[GentleLake]

Too many breeders mistake crazy, bad behavior as high drive. High drive is about a work ethic.

 

Amen!

[kingfisher7151]

It is SOOOO much easier to amp up a "low drive" dog than it is to settle down a "high drive" dog. FWIW, I don't think I've ever encountered a working breeder describes a litter like that. Individual dogs sure, but predicting a whole litter to be "high drive with no off switch"? Yikes. I'd be running far, far away.

 

I'm still not completely sure how much the "off switch" is trained or genetically determined. I'm sure it's a mix of both, but the nature vs. nurture situation is always interesting.

 

I've also started to view "high drive" as being less "really motivated to do things" and more "unable to NOT do things". I think it's tied to impulse control. Sure there are plenty of highly motivated dogs, but their not what I picture when I hear "high drive". I picture the poor agility dog I watched at a recent trial that couldn't be crated, and spent the entire time shaking, panting, and barking. Dragged the owner (who pretty obviously thought they were hot stuff) down the bleachers and screamed its way around the course. NQ'd after taking every jump it saw, In whatever order it chose. There are WAY too many calm, collected dogs who can eat it up at agility or any other activity for me to think "high drive" is something desirable.

 

I really struggled trick training Trooper, who I considered to be moderately high drive. He was so bonkers about food or toys that he'd shriek and throw whatever tricks he knew at me in order to get what he wanted. Here was NO way I was ever going to get fine tuned behaviors. Keeper is very different, he's a thinker. He has a ton of tricks on his repertoire, including very specific ones. We just mastered his snarl on cue. I could NEVER get a behavior like that with a dog that threw itself at me. Of course, I got Keeper at 9 weeks and we adopted Trooper at 9 months. I wouldn't say I worked to put an off switch on Keeper. I just expected that there were times where everyone lays down and chills out, and he figured out the routine very quickly. The few times where he was driving me nuts he'd be put in his crate.

 

I trick train very heavily and admire the dogs that are SO into the behaviors and can fly through heel work and whatnot. But even more, I enjoy the dogs who can think their way through very minute behaviors. I'd NEVER consider a pup from a breeder who is intentionally breeding the crazy, impulsive dogs. Sure I could train some (emphasis on some) of that out of them, but why would I want to when there are so many other thinking pups?

[Maralynn]

I don't think that what you describe is "drive", Kingfisher. I'd refer to it as excitement. Kipp had drive that was pretty intense and he'd work through anything. But had the greatest chill behavior when not working. Heck, so did Missy. Kenzi is more excitable and was a lot more difficult to work with.

[Root Beer]

It is SOOOO much easier to amp up a "low drive" dog than it is to settle down a "high drive" dog.

 

(Above quote courtesy of kingfisher)

 

I don't know - I've worked with both extremes and I have to say my preference falls on the side of having to bring down to much than try to instill it when it's not there!!

 

 

To me an "off switch" is a dog who has self control.

 

I think self control is 90% taught, not so much often by "training" but by not giving into demand behaviors.

 

(Above quote courtesy of rushdoggie)

 

I concur, but I would add in that I also consider the dog's natural capacity for learning self-control as part of "off switch".

 

Some dogs lack good structure and training, but there are others who have all the right structure and limits, but still struggle with a "hair trigger" when it comes to stimulation. The handler might have to work harder to build good self-control in those dogs, and I'd consider that "lack of off switch" in a sense . . .

[kingfisher7151]

I probably didn't explain myself well enough, not unusual!

 

I was trying to explain that when I hear the term "high drive" it usually is used to explain excitement. There are CERTAINLY true high drive dogs! But when I hear people (especially agility people) say high drive it usually is referring to a really amped up dog, rather than a true work ethic based drive. Just GOTTA-GET-IT!! drive.

 

I probably have an easier time with lower drive dogs because I'm a hyper person. Same reason I don't work well with hot horses!

[TravelerBlue]

Thanks for all the responses, opinions, and counsel. Very helpful. For some reason my computer was not allowing me to load this page all day yesterday!

A little more info: The owner has two females, and goats on their property that the dogs work with. Both the two females currently have litters, by the same male. That sire belongs to a different family, and is said to have two national herding championships.

The owner of the two females says that one of those females doesn't have a good off-switch, and that's her basis for thinking those pups might not. From reading your comments, it seems somewhat likely that she just hasn't known how to teach that dog an off-switch -- or unwittingly actively taught her not to have an off-switch.

The pup I'm interested in turns out to be from the other female, who does have a good off-switch. The owner says another pup that I like the looks of from the same litter is always the first to go diving in to anything. The one I'm interested in usually sits back and watches before diving in. Not sure if 6 week old behavior a predictor, but there is that.

[TravelerBlue]

The sire is "Do We Win", Quinlan Texas. Anyone know of that dog?

Anyone see good or bad indications in their ancestries?

Dam's papers (The blacked out name and address of seller is my doing; just thought it maybe better not to post up info and name the person outright)

 

Sire's papers

[juliepoudrier]

I can tell you that the bottom half of the dam's pedigree is full of well known breeders/handlers of nice working dogs. I don't know the Texas folks listed in the top half of her pedigree.

 

I don't know what national herding championships they are referring to, but it's definitely not USBCHA, which would be the standard for working border collies. (I don't recognize him from the sheepdog side, and don't think he'd be a cattle champion unless it's NCA. I'm sure Debbie Meier would know if the sire is cattle bred.)

 

J.

[TravelerBlue]

Correction, due to miscommunication somewhere. The sire works cattle and has won awards in several *local* cattle trials. I don't have livestock, I'm just looking for a pup that will have good drive and be eager to learn things. I think this pup has reason to justify an educated guess that he'll be that.

[Laurelin]

I can't quote but Rushdoggie your post about your pap had me smiling. Gosh that sounds familiar! People always look at me cross eyed when I say the worst pup I raised was a pap and that she didn't turn off till 3 years old. But it's the truth. She was quite a learning experience. Great dog.

 

People conflate over excitability with drive all the time but it's not correct. Took me a long time to realize the difference but high drive (going at this from a sport angle) should not equal crazy. Most sports people I know are not after the crazy. They want level headedness. Well maybe flyball people do want crazy? I don't flyball.

[GentleLake]

I wasn't able to access the Boards much of yesterday and until just a little while ago today either, so I doubt it was your computer.

 

The owner of the two females says that one of those females doesn't have a good off-switch, and that's her basis for thinking those pups might not.

 

I'd still question why they thought breeding that bitch was a good idea. But if you're happy with the other one and the breeding on the pups, that's what matters.

 

As for personality at 6 weeks in the litter, all I can say is that it can change dramatically once the pup's removed from the litter's dynamics. I once took a pup from a litter where things sounded very much like the one you describe. The pup I got was the quieter one. That didn't last long after I got her home. She was a very busy dog for the rest of her tragically brief life. She did have an off switch, but I often had to remind her to use it. Otherwise she'd have been bouncing off the walls if I'd allowed her to. And she did just that when I was out of town and friend watched her and didn't have the common sense to ask her to stop.

[alligande]

 

I can't help but think that such dogs must be relatively unhappy. Imagine never being able to just chill out and relax. And really just because her whole purpose was agility (depressing notion in itself that she was apparently just a tool for someone's ego--isn't agility at its core supposed to be about doing something fun with your pet?). Sad. SMH.

 

J.

The longer my friend has this dog, we think she was given away not because of ill health of the handler but because the handler could not cope with her, sending her to a small island in Europe is one way to make sure no one will see her again! She does know how to chill in her crate, there she can relax, and slowly very slowly she is learning the joys of being a pet.

And I agree agility is supposed to be a fun activity with your pet

 

I don't get the whole "keep a dog amped up" for the purpose of Agility concept. The vast majority of the dog's day at an Agility trial is spent either in a crate, or a car, or in some other "relax while waiting" fashion.

 

 

But I don't see why anyone would want an Agility dog to be crazy at home. The dog still has to hang around waiting most of the day at a trial . . . seems that would be a skill to hone nicely in everyday life.

What I find sad about this dog, is that she does not know how to chill outside a crate, at an agility trial she would appear to be the perfect lady, quiet in a crate, driven in the ring. Between these two activities she is a pain.

 

And I agree with you Kristine on all your points.

[Liz P]

I've been watching this "breeder" desperately buying up colored dogs all over the internet, breeding dogs before health testing, breeding them very young, etc. Looks and smells like a puppy mill in the making. I would RUN far, far away.

 

ETA, this person basically began breeding last year and has come out and said she just wants to breed puppies, its her right to do it and people should just leave her alone. She has resisted any attempts to help her understand the fundamentals of a working dog, health issues in the breed, health testing, etc.

[GentleLake]

^^ Scary.

 

I'd run far and fast knowing that.

[TravelerBlue]

Liz P, **thank you** for posting. Just to make sure, you're talking about the breeder who owns the mother (Sweet Izzy) of the pups I'm interested in, in Palestine Texas?

 

I've been watching this "breeder" desperately buying up colored dogs all over the internet, breeding dogs before health testing, breeding them very young, etc. Looks and smells like a puppy mill in the making. I would RUN far, far away.

[Liz P]

If you would like I can PM you the name of the breeder so you can double check her name.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Off switch: Some years ago I took my Luke and June to the little dog park in Greenwich Village's Washington Square. A young lady asked me what breed they were.

 

"Border Collies>"

 

"No, they're not."

 

"Pardon me?"

 

"I'm a professional dog walker. They aren't Border Collies."

 

"Uh, why?"

 

"They're calm."

 

 

When the world makes sense to them, they'll settle.

 

Donald McCaig

[Maralynn]

When the world makes sense to them, they'll settle.

 

 

 

I like this. A lot!!

[TravelerBlue]

Liz P, I'm sending you a PM now

EDIT: Oops, can't message you. Yes, Please message me.