Allow the Right, correct the wrong: a primer on praise

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

 

Disclaimer: While I have instructed/trained dozens of Border Collies for sheep work, I’ve not trained other breeds: no Salukis, Chows, Beagles Alaskan Sled Dogs or Daschundts. My remarks here are breed-specific. Border Collies are particularly eager to be trained and anyone who works at training will have good results unless the trainer is so fucked up him/herself that the dog becomes a billboard of the trainer’s psychological problems.
Further: my understanding of praise stems from experience with sheep work and many/most on this forum train their dogs for other activities. Some train explicitly for mannerliness while mannerly sheepdogs are a side effect of sheep work

Though I've seen sheepdogs in Scotland and Montana who have never worn a collar, I have seen few that weren't mannerly. Some of that derives from the dog's uncanny ability to read human wishes enhanced by meaningful work and the deep satisfaction that comes from having its genetic impulses expressed thoroughly. The work encourages trust which expands to the dog’s willingness to behave properly in circumstances it cannot understand.

In its essence, sheep work is modified pack behavior with the sheepdogger as leader of his/her household pack. Pack rules are reinforced by training,habit,work, and life world experience but it is the dog's strong desire to fit into HIS pack that civilizes him. I have carried dying dogs outdoors to empty because they didn’t want to violate what our pack does and doesn't do.

Other dog training methods can work. I have seen an ecollar trained golden retriever on command pick up a quarter from a flat concrete floor and in a minefield on the Kosovo/Albania border I watched a Croatian deminer play tug with his dog to relax him after some very tense moments. Though I believe training derived from BF Skinner’s theories isn’t much better than how my neighbor sorta trains her dog, I have seen mannerly dogs trained by Skinner disciples and my neighbor’s dog does pretty good too.

A mannerly dog accompanies you: wither thou goest, he goest. I remember the lobby of the Best Western in Sturgis South Dakota; still dark outside and the National Finals trial crew are grabbing a quick cuppa before they head out to the field. Their dogs, fifteen Border Collies, are lying around or standing with their handlers. Nobody pays them any attention, nobody commands and none of the dogs are leashed. Most of these dogs have never been to Sturgis, none has been in this motel before and they don’t know each other. The clerk steps over dogs to refill the coffee maker. As each worker leaves, his/her dogs get up and follow.

The commonest theory of canine epistemology is atomistic and too simple: Dogs behave as we wish because they are rewarded for doing so and corrected when they don’t. Praise, food treats, play, “letting the dog have his sheep” are rewards. Corrections may be a disapproving voice or a zap with the ecollar. Whether one trains with the ecollar, or treat bag, same theory.


Within this theory, the virtues of praise seem self-evident. Dog does good, gets a verbal reward. Beginning sheepdoggers are shocked to be told, “Hush! Don’t praise the dog!”

Unlike other training methods sheepdog training begins off leash. Some dogs will drag a long line so I can catch it but if a dog seems calm and under some control it goes out with nothing on its collar but its collar.

So:In the small ring, eight docile sheep, wouldbe sheepdog, aspiring sheepdogger and instructor. Dog drops his tail, crouches and starts to balance sheep and its owner is so delighted she/he cries “Good boy! Whata good doggie!!!” as the dog quit, hesitantly wags his tail and the sheep escape.

For the umpteenrth time, I tell the aspiring owner: "You're breaking the dog's concentration."
Let me parse the praise mantra “"Good boy! Whata good doggie!". The initial "Good" is usually uttered in tones of incredulity, as if the dog has performed a miracle; if not quite turning water into wine, at least to Diet Pepsi. "boy" is a place holder. Though empathetic “Whata" is another place holder.The second "good" conveys the owner's astonishment that his/her dog could have performed said miracle and "doggie" is a diminutive trivializer.

To the dog this noise translates: “Attend to me. I am more important than your work or newfound passion for it Just who do you think you are!!”

Of course you've never spoken thus to your dog, but certainly you've heard others that did. What is the dog to make of it? The phrase is identical to the pillowtalk it gets in the evenings while its owner is watching TV. The wouldbe sheepdog is called from his work back into the pet relationship.

Don't get me wrong, I like to ootchy-coo my dog as much as anyone. Butt NOT when they're working. EXCEPTION:Rarely, a dog gets so stressed and confused during training, a little praise/ootchy-coo reassures it. and (also rarely) praise informs the dog he’s got a new skill right. Normally praise confuses the dog and some sheepdogs can't take any praise while working. My Jake cannot be praised, during or after a training task. If your sheepdog is balancing on you as you try to teach a flank (away or comebye), it is much, much easier to correct the wrong flank with a quiet "ack" than to encourage the correct move with praise. Praise is very complex, corrections are simple.

Let me try a different tack. Some year’s ago I was a guest at the Volhard's training camp where an assistant escorted me to the lodge for a cup of coffee. Since dogs weren't allowed indoors, I left June outside on a down stay When we came out, June was where I’d left her and my escort enthused, "Good girl! Whata . . .”

I interrupted "Why praise her for doing what she's supposed to do?”

Every morning I put away the clean dishes in the rack and ssh the dirty ones.. I've been washing our dishes for forty years and though Anne occasionally offers a correction, I don't think she's ever praised me. I don't praise her for doing the laundry either.

That’s how things are done in our household pack.

Some years ago, pet dog trainer Carol Benjamin had an epiphany which informed her best selling training book, Mother Knows Best. In brief and not in Carol’s words: if one wishes to train a dog why not watch how a bitch trains her puppies? In their first few weeks of life, Mother uses the neural patterns in her and her pups to teach the pups what they need to know. Watching a dam with a litter one sees affection, protection and nothing remotely like praise. When they need cleaning, she pins them down and cleans them ignoring their protests, she decides when they feed and if they bite too hard she lets them know. It's hard to avoid the term "tough love". In Mother knows Best, Carol’s tough love is modified by her own and puppy playfulness but her core observation isn't very different from Jack Knox's simple sheepdog training mantra: “Allow the right, correct the wrong." Or as I have sometimes told praising students: "Why don't you just shut up?”

Training with Dr Skinner’s methods are a superior way of teaching tricks particularly with dogs accustomed to the "training game". But the world is not a collection of tricks, it's a buzzing, booming confusion. The dog needs experience in doses it can accept and learn from; there simply aren't enough tricks to master every new thing the world can hurl at a human or a dog. Both must become wise®.

While I have seen Skinner dogs who were successful, happy family pets and trained to excel at agility and tricks, I've never seen one who would have been at ease in that Best Western Motel lobby in Sturgis.

The Rural Hill SDT has side events for spectators including an agility demo. One year after June ran I took her to the agility field where a nice woman offered to show us how to run the course. At the tire, she handed me a treat and suggested, "Put a leash on her and lure her through it." I said we probably wouldn't need those things. I corrected June when she tried to avoid jumping through for thirty seconds until she jumped through it. Ditto at the tunnel. I guided her through the (wide apart) weave poles with my hand. When I asked June to walk the dog walk, she did so. I didn't try the teeter-totter because I thought the sudden bump would have been unfair. While I don't presume this experience made me an agility handler and don't know if correction training without praise could produce winning agility dogs I will make a lesser claim. I have seen top sheepdoggers introduce a young dog to sheep and within that first ten minute session get it balancing its sheep, downing on command and beginning to accept its flanks. A reasonable parallel to June’s intro to agility would be if a skilled +R (Kristine's term) trainer could get a first time sheepdog to do as well in a ten minute lesson using treats and praise.

When Jake and I went to the Vashon Island SDT I stayed with my sister in Lake City (north Seattle) and as soon as there was light to see, I took Jake out for a half hour walk along a residential street. The street was wide enough for two cars to pass; no sidewalks; a grassy shoulder/verge fronted driveways, yards, tall hedges and domestic jungles inviting Jake's exploration We crossed several cross streets. At that hour, early drivers were leaving for work, a little sleepy, in a hurry and not expecting a dog off leash. When I heard a car, I recalled Jake to my side and pointed my flashlight down to help the driver see us.
Jake thought driveways and mysterious hedges were an invitation to explore and he really wanted to run too far ahead. But I didn't want him so distant or across the street he couldn't get back before before a car, passed nor did I want him to meet a neighbors' cat/dog/fearful armed householder behind some hedge. So I kept him close with quiet "Jake" or "ack" corrections.
The third day I was writing this it thought to count the corrections I offered on our walk, figuring there'd be maybe a hundred. To my surprise, I gave exactly sixteen corrections in thirty minutes and six passing cars. My initial blizzard of corrections had taught Jake I wanted him close, don't cross the street, don't go deep down the neighbor's driveway. He'd internalized the requirements of this brand new situation better and much faster than I thought he would. Without a word of praise.

 

Derek Scrimageour suggests a three toned approach to commanding a dog: Neutral, encouraging and correcting. I think that's about right.

 

Jimmy Wilson was a shepherd and every day he'd go up the hill with Peg, his bet sheepdog. Jimmy spent more me with Peg than his wife. Weekends, he'd trial and Jimmy and Peg got into the International team three times. Should have won it once, people said. Though Jimmy was a gentle man he never praised Peg or petted her after a good run and others started ragging him about it, "Come on Jimmy. Give Peg a pat. Show her what you think of her!"

 

"What makes you think Peg doesn't ken what I think of her?"

Donald McCaig

[mum24dog]

Just one misconception to correct to start with; Sheepdog training is not unique in beginning off lead (and does it always?)

 

Many positively inclined trainers also train off lead preferring to enable the dog to choose to cooperate rather than be compelled.

 

Have you ever seen Kristine use a lead? I think you could seek a more accurate analogy. It's simple enough to know what you have to do when presented with a few pieces of equipment, not so much when faced with a novel challenge involving two different species (not counting the human) and where one of those is being given the opportunity to practise what it hopefully has been bred to do for generations.

 

And I wouldn't draw any inferences from the fact that you were able to lead a dog through a few agility obstacles with no training and no lead. It's what we expect from our absolute beginners in their first lesson. Our current class that started a couple of weeks ago comprises 2 very gung ho labs, a lurcher, a rough collie and an Akita. All can do as you describe and that's without having the years of experience working with their dogs that you have.

 

Recently a very old school trainer confidently informed me that agility dogs can't work on lead because they are trained off lead. Absolute ********* (insert appropriate description). I'll be honest, I'd rather ditch the lead when competing in Obedience but my dog has no problem whether it is there or not.

[Alfreda]

"A reasonable parallel to June’s intro to agility would be if a skilled +R (Kristine's term) trainer could get a first time sheepdog to do as well in a ten minute lesson using treats and praise."

 

This contradicts what seems to be one of your main points: that trick training and agility-type sports are substantially *different* (more complex both cognitively and socially, more driven by instinctual patterns that are shaped and developed verses discrete, behaviors that are strung together).

 

I agree that it *IS* different than training sheep herding. So, no, it's not a reasonable parallel. Having said that, tho, I imagine that an R+ trainer *could* get a first time sheepdog to do as well using praise- some sheepdogs (not mine) are easy starters- they don't chase, dive-in, grip. They just go around and hold the sheep to the handler. They are sensitive to body pressure and they respond to that right off the bat. They offer rough, undeveloped instinctual chunks of the gather/balance/hold/bring package naturally. Those aspects can be shaped and developed by "yes" by "ack" by pressure, by continued work (R+) and largely, (I would argue) by experience in the social context of working with a human, to accomplish real tasks.

 

"The commonest theory of canine epistemology is atomistic and too simple: Dogs behave as we wish because they are rewarded for doing so and corrected when they don’t. Praise, food treats, play, “letting the dog have his sheep” are rewards. Corrections may be a disapproving voice or a zap with the ecollar. Whether one trains with the ecollar, or treat bag, same theory."

 

Behaviorism and the 4 quadrants there-of, are useful mostly, I think, in generating options (try another quadrant if something isn't working). I've seen more creativity and enthusiasm in training among those who are in the camp that emphasizes R+ than in any other sector. I think that's healthy. Too often among correction-based trainers- there is a tendency to escalate (to be punitive) rather than to analyze and think or feel one's way to another approach. There is also a lot of what I would call, plain, unquestioning superstition about "alpha" this and alpha that, and a tendency to take a mistake or misunderstanding (on the part of the dog) as a personal challenge to so-called pack based "authority." Talk about simplistic!!

 

Having said that, I completely agree with what you've said about behaviorism being too simplistic. I would suggest to you that the field of learning -both human and animal learning & cognition- has already progressed way beyond either of those models. Whether we are talking about people with Autism, PTSD, rewiring our own brains, or dog training, we are way beyond Skinner's "black box" approach. Back in the (60s) Skinner said that since we can't know what's going on cognitively and emotionally inside the animal, it doesn't matter, we just need to respond to the outwardly expressed, observable behavior. In some ways, it's amazing what CAN be accomplished by only doing that. It's amazing just how much animal training has improved and been enriched by- ie: the likes of Karen Pryor- etc. So, it may be simplistic, but neverthelesss, it's been a highly useful tool.

 

One problem in discussions, is what some have called the "tautological" aspect of behaviorism in which "punishment" is defined as something that decreases the likelihood that a behavior will occur etc... There are semantic/linguistic problems. But likewise, "correction" is a very imprecise word, even for a writer (teasing you here Mr. McCaig ). Given that as Kristine and others said on the other thread, people use the word "correction" to mean anything from a re-do, to a No-Reward marker, to a mild aversive, to a punishment. I think it would be great to have a true "train-off." Like they did in the past with the wild mustangs... let's get 10 BC litters and have experienced sheepdog trainers train pups using only verbal praise vs only verbal correction and compare?

 

Perhaps a better parallel would be to try a much simpler experiment at your house? I think it was Karen Pryor (not sure) who cited research that it takes 5 "at-a-boys" for every criticism to improve a relationship (or something along those lines...) So how about we try having Mr. McCaig offer Mrs. McCaig 5 compliments or "praises," a day for a week, and see what happens?

 

Just a wild hair... ... from someone who can't even figure out how to use the quote function !

[geonni banner]

Perhaps a better parallel would be to try a much simpler experiment at your house? I think it was Karen Pryor (not sure) who cited research that it takes 5 "at-a-boys" for every criticism to improve a relationship (or something along those lines...) So how about we try having Mr. McCaig offer Mrs. McCaig 5 compliments or "praises," a day for a week, and see what happens?

Dunno about the other folk here with "significant others," but mine would have responded with, "What are you up to?", What do you want?", or "Do you need to lie down?

[Root Beer]

I will say one thing about praise.

 

Every dog I have ever worked with has known, very obviously, when my praise is genuine, and when I am "putting on" praise. And that "putting on" can even be when I am genuinely glad my dog has done something . . . but I'm not really like "wooohoooo!" about it. When I am "putting on" praise, I have found it to be highly ineffective, where genuine, spontaneous praise can be extremely effective (even genuine, spontaneous quiet praise). But it's so unpredictable.

 

That's where reinforcers like food, play, environmental reinforcers, etc. become extremely valuable. Praise is great because you can take it into the ring with you. But when teaching high precision skills, praise usually isn't going to be a strong enough reinforcer/motivator to introduce those skills.

 

Nothing motivates Tessa like a heartfelt "good girl" from me. But for those times when that kind of praise is just not spontaneously happening on my part, thank God there's chicken!! (This is for training behaviors or initial fluency building, not in a performance context, obviously).

 

As far as never seeing any of my dogs working on a leash, you've been missing out.

 

 

And praise was important in this little performance. Tessa had never performed with a wine glass before and praise was the only way that I could communicate to her that she was doing well. (Definitely spontaneous, heartfelt praise here - I was delighted that she was doing so well with me holding that silly glass)

 

But all of those behaviors were initially trained with food . . . and yes - off leash. I start training everything - except leash manners - off leash. And I kind of start leash manners off leash, too . . . in a way.

[Maralynn]

My dogs eat up praise. Sometimes it sends them a bit over the top. But the settle right back down when asked.

 

Obviously, praising while they're figuring something out is counterproductive. I'll stand back and watch while my dog is figuring out a scent puzzle. They know their job and are using their brain - my verbal involvement would get in the way. But for other tasks that they're not sure of? Then I'll offer verbal support and encouragement.

 

I convey the tone that I want them to mirror. And it works. Soft, soothing "goooood dog". Happy, upbeat "atta girl!". Goofy, fun "what are you doing?" They respond in kind.

 

They're pretty happy, sensible well mannered dogs. I've had several people comment on their temperament and good behavior. I, too, can take my dogs to a variety of new places and they retain their wits about them. It's pretty cool watching Kolt check in with me first to see if he has permission to go give a favorite person a crazy greeting. And how he adjusts himself immediately when asked.

 

Timing, consistency and handler attitude conveys the message to the dog. And praise is a valuable, powerful training tool that gets great results for me.

[Alfreda]

Geonni writes:

"Dunno about the other folk here with "significant others," but mine would have responded with, "What are you up to?", What do you want?", or "Do you need to lie down?"

 

Hahaha! Not an unusual response! As Kristine points out, sincerity is key- otherwise it just seems like manipulation.

 

This may be a bit off-track from border collies, but here's a link to an article re: research into effective RATIOs of praise vs criticism in business performance -it also cites John Gottman's research on characteristics of marriages that make them more divorce resistant.

 

https://hbr.org/2013/03/the-ideal-praise-to-criticism/

 

Point is that both kinds of information (praise and criticism) are important and effective and can serve different purposes in relationships and in training.

 

The main difference between some dog trainers seems to be that, when challenged to teach something difficult, will they going to default to finding and focusing on the thing that's WRONG (and coerce until it's "fixed") or will they focus on what's RIGHT and try to build from there? When children learn, they progress by making neural connections from what they already know or can do to the new information or skill. Of course people used to use other teaching methods like: Allow the correct/ruler on your knuckles for wrong.

[Root Beer]

You know, I have had a very interesting experience in Rally FrEe. It was designed - intentionally - to be a sport that would, in addition to being what it is - promote +R based training.

 

So . . . for us humans, you do not start with a perfect score and get deductions. You start with 0 and earn points at every station.

 

At first I didn't really think it was going to make all that much difference, but in practice I found that it did. On exercises where my dog has a weakness, I started to think in terms of maximizing points, not in terms of, "my dog doesn't do this well enough". I started to focus more on improvement instead of having a mentality that it should always be perfect and if it wasn't, it was somehow "failure". I generally try not to think in those terms, but those kinds of thoughts do creep in at times.

 

I have found it is a very powerful scoring system.

[Alfreda]

late EDIT (sorry to be confusing):

 

Posted Today, 10:11 AM

"A reasonable parallel to June’s intro to agility would be if a skilled +R (Kristine's term) trainer could get a first time sheepdog to do as well in a ten minute lesson using treats and praise."

 

This contradicts what seems to be one of your main points: that trick training and agility-type sports are substantially *different* THAN SHEEPDOG TRAINING (which is more complex both cognitively and socially, more driven by instinctual patterns that are shaped and developed verses discrete, behaviors that are strung together).

 

I (think) I agree that agility/sports/trick training *IS* different than training sheep herding.

[geonni banner]

My experience with praise has suggested that a dog that is motivated to do well for his own sake will light up when praised for high performance, and not when it turns in a performance that is less than stellar. My dogs have responded well to praise when they were pleased with their own performance. This is especially true if what they are trying to do is physically or mentally challenging.

 

It's like, they brush off my praise when I'm praising a "good try" and they really respond with excitement and happiness when they are praised for nailing something difficult. The conversation goes like this:

 

Me - "Wow you really nailed that! I'm so impressed!"

The Dog - "I know, right? Gimme five!

 

I tend to choose dogs based on their being interested in mastering skills and situations, not necessarily to please me, but because they get a charge out of it for themselves. For their effort paying off, enabling them to feel a flush of success.

 

For this reason I try to teach them things that are challenging for them, and build their self-esteem. And I try to avoid spending time teaching them to do things that are merely cute or clever. Those kind of things have their place, but it's a small place, and does little to build character, courage or a work ethic. I mostly use them to acquaint an inexperienced or young dog with the give and take dynamics of training.

 

To me it seems that showering a dog with praise to do endless repetitions of acts that have no real use or value is condescension of the worst kind, to an animal with the brain and heart of a working dog. My Doberman was disgusted by such foolery, as is my current dog, Sugarfoot. But she will bask in praise for a difficult job well done.

 

A small example is once when I was out walking with her and another dog owner had lost a ball over a high chain-link fence. Her retriever was standing at the fence staring at the ball, and would not move to try and secure it. I pointed the ball out to Sugar - "Lookit! Lookit!" and then said "Get It!", pointing away, down the fence. She never hesitated. She took off down the fence at a run, found a gap under it, ran back down the inside to the ball and returned by the same path carrying it. She came straight to me and dropped it. I was pleased, to say the least, and I told her so. But my delight was nothing to hers. She swaggered all the way home. (The other dog's owner was mind-blown.)

 

Yeah, it was only fetching a ball. But it was more. It was fast thinking, problem-solving and having big fun, all at the same time. It was a job that needed doing, and she did it well. My praise was merely the smallest speck of a cherry on top.

 

Oh how I wish that money and mobility would have been there to enable me to take this dog to stock, when she was young. And to keep her at it until she couldn't any more.

[denice]

I am not going to even address the agility vs herding training and how they are alike or different. I have played with some dogs I have had in the past getting them to do silly things like climb a ladder and run gown the slide.

 

I think an important point that has maybe been missed is there is a difference between Praise and Encouragement. Some dogs that are praised to the extend that they stop thinking and are only concentrating on the praise or person. This can set up a working sheepdog to have challenges since it needs to focus on the sheep. A dog that has has not been praised to the point of mindless wiggle will take a quiet good girl much differently. I talk to my dogs quite a bit though out the day and Jack Knox has told me more than once to Hush. I have learned to be quiet and trust and wait on the dog. Sometimes I am in to much of a hurry to help and do not allow them time to think things through. I have also learned the difference between praise and encouragement. An atta girl or sshhh when they are right goes a long way when you that hesitation and uncertainty. Jack rarely says good girl but he does encourage quit a bit when it is needed. I truly believe a hand on their hand for a second means as much to them as ootchy goo.

[Maja]

Very interesting post. When talking about training, I usually find it easier to communicate my ideas to people that train hunting dogs than to BC owners who do something else than sheep herding.

[mum24dog]

Whether you use an abundance of praise, treats, toys or very little / none whatever is much less important than whether it achieves the end result.

 

The style of Obedience in the UK in the higher classes requires sustained heelwork and other exercises without any commands whatsoever beyond the original one and no minuscule physical cues at all. It is extremely difficult for the handler, less so for the dog which will very likely have been taught through play. Handlers have to learn to shut up and suppress the slightest bodily twitch or eye contact. All of it very unnatural for both dog and handler and requiring huge discipline.

 

Agility is rather different. You get handlers who give a great number of verbal cues and those who give none, relying on body language. Some dogs are more forgiving than others of handler errors. Unnatural behaviours again.

 

Clicker trainers vary between those who give a lot of prompting to their dog and those who have learned to keep their mouth shut and allow the dog to figure it out.

 

Search and rescue dogs here taught with play. I could go on.

 

I'm sure that you would find far more understanding of what you want to say amongst those in the non working working world.

 

It's not as if those who work stock with their dogs are the only ones who are possessed of the magical secrets of training the perfect dog. It would be somewhat arrogant for anyone to believe that.

[mum24dog]

Just to add that I totally agree that mistimed praise can interrupt the dog's concentration. Seen it far too many times when a dog is praised while in the weaves and it comes out, for example. As has been mentioned, praise and encouragement aren't the same thing. One is for a job well done, the other a signal to keep going.

[Maja]

I'm sure that you would find far more understanding of what you want to say amongst those in the non working working world.

 

It's not as if those who work stock with their dogs are the only ones who are possessed of the magical secrets of training the perfect dog. It would be somewhat arrogant for anyone to believe that.

 

I have two threads for two of my dogs on a forum for sport dogs. There are only some border collies there and very few there are herding folks. My topics are there because I was invited to join and write about sheep herding. The people who invited me know me from a clicker-list, where I often presented my results and thoughts in clicker training of which I did a lot with my first border collie.

 

So there on that forum I needed to explain lots of things about the sheep dog to people who do not deal with stock. All the people there are very interested and very open about training methods. And I find that usually it is easier to explain some things to people who have working hunting dogs, than other sports. In border collies the situation is more pronounced because border collies are in many aspects very different when on stock and when doing other sports.

 

That is not to say, I was not able to communicate what I meant, but that - as I wrote - it was often easier to communicate to field trial people. But all the discussions were always very enlightening, and I learned a lot form everybody there.

 

I fully agree with your last statement, but I find the implication rather disagreeable.

[CptJack]

Frankly, I find there are a lot of communication breakdowns between moving between various areas of dog 'fancy' (ownership, training, interest), and that while the primary methods may be the same, the ultimate goals are so vastly dissimilar, with different things being valued, that it can be hard to express not so much *what* you are doing, but *why* you are doing it.

 

My lifetime, I have trained dogs for, or participated in the training of
Hunting

Police dogs - these first two being my father/my father's dogs.

A decently behaved pet and silly tricks

Agility

And a tiny, tiny smatter of other sports like dock diving and treibball.

 

I'm even somewhat confused by obedience (as sport) and flyball training. I don't think any of it's easier or harder one way or the other, but I think if you do not fully understand the end result and goal, you're going to have a hard time understanding the decisions made in pursuit of it.

 

I suspect recognition of that fact on every side of the equation would do everyone good (and lead to less a-) defensiveness and b-) smugness).

 

And, no, that is not directed to anyone particular here, but more the turn the conversation seems to be taking.

[Root Beer]

Whether you use an abundance of praise, treats, toys or very little / none whatever is much less important than whether it achieves the end result.

 

. . . .

 

Clicker trainers vary between those who give a lot of prompting to their dog and those who have learned to keep their mouth shut and allow the dog to figure it out.

 

And, training being interesting as always, I am transforming from a clicker trainer who would be stone silent during a clicker session to one who is giving more natural verbal feedback, mixed right in with the clicks and treats - for various reasons, mainly to provide more supportive feedback so he knows he is figuring it out!!

[Alfreda]

Maja,

I would like to hear more about how you transitioned from clicker training to herding (with the lovely and talented "she wolf" Darinca... ).

 

You must have made many decisions regarding the kinds of feedback that worked best for you and your dog on sheep (body pressure, restraint, verbal correction, aversive noise, praise, encouragement etc.)

 

Also, are there positive hunting dog trainers in Poland? Here, many use e-collars, but this trainer/group is in high demand:

http://www.positivegundogtraining.com/

http://www.positivegundogassociation.com/

 

Rebecca

[Root Beer]

There are a couple of positive gun dog pages and groups on Facebook, as well.

[Tea]

hum, I dunno, I dunno......praise yeah I praise but I find for my own work the less said the better.

 

 

How do you praise a dog when working a pissed off young range bull away from heifers- it is dangerous ( he/she works because they love it).....I say nothing.....if I could say something that would break the dogs concentration....he could get squashed. And my best dogs know not to let their concentration be broken...I won't say anything.....but maybe shhhhhhh to send them- (You are on your own to move the bull towards the gate and I will back you up.....on my horse.)

 

It seems that the sports work others are doing is very different from the work I face. Not better or inferior...just different.

 

When I trial I must say some things to make panels or shed the right sheep. But my best work, the work that I myself I'm proud of is as quiet now as I can make it. A partnership shared with both dog and person- and horse- knowing and understanding the task.

[Alfreda]

^^^ this, Tea, makes sense to me, but I have 2 questions:

 

You're talking about a fully trained working partner who knows what to do and is experienced at reading stock, and working in your ranch routines. Do you use any more praise when you are first starting/training a young dog to help them learn when they're correct?

 

I was also thinking that in herding, the tone of voice (whistle) might convey what is essentially a "praise" message (as in a quiet good, keep going) within the command?

 

 

[Maralynn]

I think that there is a pretty big distinction between jobs where dogs can use instinct and ones where they need to be taught every step. They can figure out jobs that take instinct and people need to keep their mouth shut and let them work while they're figuring it out. Any sort of scent work is best set up so the dog is always working independently of the handler. Otherwise you can cue false alerts if the dog looks to the handler for direction.

 

But training the agility and obedience portions needed for SAR work and I talk and encourage quite a bit because I'm directing what I want them to learn.

[mum24dog]

Many times I will praise my dog for doing what is expected simply because I was brought up to say please and thank you and not take people for granted. I don't see my dogs as furry people but the attitude is deeply ingrained.

 

Much of the time it is more of an acknowledgement that I have noticed they are there and what they are doing.

[denice]

I find the better the dog is the less I say. All my bc work sheep, most of the time it is not to much of a life threatening situation but those sheep can and do run up to a dog and will butt it if they feel they can get away with it. I have learned not to break the focus or force a command my dog does not want to take. I did that once to get my dog a ram head in the ribs - I felt like crap because I caused that. Lesson learned.

 

Tone is HUGE. I do encourage more with a young dog just to let them know they are doing well and that is what I want. An atta boy goes a lone way I think. In my mind I make a distinction between praise and encouragement. Not that my praise is ever over of the top but some dogs stop thinking when praised and I dont ever want that, on livestock especially. Even my corrections are quiet and low key most of the time in order for them to keep thinking. My tone is vastly different but not the volume.

 

I try to have my younger dogs in a smaller place with stock I am pretty sure they can manage. Set them up for success so to speak. As they mature and gain experience I ask more of them. They will be eventually working where I can not see them so I keep the end picture in mind when we are training. My voice is the only thing I will have to help or correct when they are behind a group of livestock so all the training before that leads to having calm quiet control of the dog yes but also the dog having calm quiet confident control of the stock.

[Tea]

I do think tone of voice and tone of whistle tells the dog.....A lot. Encourages and can say other things, like do it right now quickly its important, or do it slow now and careful.

When I start a dog I praise it after the fact- the whole work was good. I am pleased. However I don't say- Well that was a load of crap you bad dog....after I finish our work. I just put the dog away and try again later. Trying to think what my mistake are. Of course I'm sure the dog has an idea that it was not good. Starting the dogs at the right age and with the right stock and in the right situation are pretty important.

 

I do not think my tone in the work during the work implies praise but more likely how something should be approached. And in the best times, I don't do this only a shhhhhh. I have learned a lot from my best dogs with that shhhhhhhh..

 

Young dogs are so different my best ones have been for the most part easy to train. If they begin to do something wrong I might say HEY! But I praise at the end of something. Not during. Generally.

One of my toughest cowdogs.....Blood Sucking Fly Man- AKA Tick (Who you most likely will not see at a trial.) One of his problems is he didn't care if there was praise or correction. He cared only for control of stock. He taught me a lot. The thing that taught him was working in the open with more and ranker cattle. The work showed him why I needed stuff to be a certain way. Not a dog for sheep. I have a little bitch that if you yelled at her it would break her heart. So I don't, but I also realize in my own work I have to watch out for putting her in a situation where people are yelling at each other! She is still young, maybe she'll grow out of it. But I don't think so.

 

Sweep taught me that yelling just stirred him up.

 

I hope that is clearer- Just my ideas anyway. But still I think it is important to remember that doing this work and doing SAR and Doing Agility or whatever you do are different things- And that's OK.

 

In horses the difference between riding a three day horse xc and a Gran prix dressage horse is different. The aids are similar but in xc you do rely on the horse a whole bunch more. In Dressage, the nature of it is control.

 

With my working cowhorses I give them a lot of the control back.

 

I have worked with guys that use hounds and they do use praise and correction in their training of the young dogs on a trail, but mostly praise, and the correction gentle.

 

Of course I am just giving you my thoughts coming from my experiences. Everybody's journey a bit different.