Allow the Right, correct the wrong: a primer on praise

[mum24dog]

"The leash is just decoration".

 

I like that Kristine. When competing in Obedience I use the lightest and thinnest lead I can find where the heelwork exercise dictates that I have to use one. Leash popping or worse has never been my style.

[simba]

I am considering moving to a purely positive style, just because my temper recently has been worse and I find it harder to distinguish appropriate and inappropriate corrections when angry- and that's a worse problem than being unable to distinguish appropriate and inappropriate positive reinforcement when happy.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

I loved Kristine's teacher's "The leash is just decoration", but had to wonder: Why decorate?

 

Donald McCaig

[Maja]

Thought provoking topic . But! I've got the solution

 

There is punishment unseen, and praise unspoken.

 

When one uses only positive reinforcement, in terms of guiding the dog's behavior it is like playing hot-and-cold game without the 'cold' side. It causes some dogs stress. Again, I noticed it first with the bernese, then in sheep dog training I noticed that a lot.

 

When I was a little girl. I went to ballet school. Our sensitive skinny bunch went through lot of pressure. Extremely motivated, we got criticized a lot and there was no nicey-nicey there. Praise was rare, criticism, correction abundant (and that was if you were doing well enough - lazy bums did not deserve correction, they were just ignored and then discarded after the next exam) . And yet, after a while, you just knew the teacher's silence when she was passing by you: the look she gave you that you caught put of the corner of your eye (since our eyes had to be in very specific position and definitely not on the teacher) - you knew that you were doing well. And each of us would glow inside when this happened. And we were no border collies - known for their ability to read people.

 

So I think Mr. McCaig, you praise your dogs a lot. And Jimmy Wilson praised his Peg a lot. It just was not according to the common convention of how to praise a dog, so the people assume you don't. I am 100% convinced that dogs know the silence that comes from approval, admiration, affection, respect. I am sure these moments are shared. And from what I know there are few people, as a group, who have more admiration and affection for their dogs than the stock people (as in Tea's post for example).

 

 

So there, I solved a problem once and for all .

[Root Beer]

Dear Doggers,

 

I loved Kristine's teacher's "The leash is just decoration", but had to wonder: Why decorate?

 

Donald McCaig

 

Well, that's simple in Rally. It's required in competition. In the first level of all of the live competition venues in Rally, a leash is required, and it must be loose! Tight leashes result in point deductions. And leash handling is a skill as much as any of the skills the dog learns, so you definitely want experience handing through courses with it. Right finishes can be particularly tricky for new handlers to manage a leash through. You want to practice until it's natural. Also, you want practice with dealing with the leash when the dog accidentally gets caught up in it. That sometimes happens no matter how good your leash skills are.

 

So, it is a skill that the sport we were studying requires. Once you get out of the first level, you go off leash, but you must get through that first level to get there.

 

Traditional Obedience requires use of a leash in some exercises in the Novice level, as well.

 

And while leashes aren't required in Freestyle or Agility, they are required in the crating areas, and often on the grounds, of most trials, except in the ring and warm-up areas. So, the dog having an understanding that the "leash is a decoration" in those situations is helpful because you can follow the rules, but you aren't depending on the leash for control. It's just there.

[denice]

Tea bring up a very good point. Every dog is different and the really good handlers/trainers take that into consideration and make adjustments. The longer you work stock and the more dogs you train this gets ever more apparent.

 

My older boy is nearly 13, Blu loves to work and it feels like he reads my mind. He came to at 5 and the connection was Instant. He taught me what is it like to have a true partner. He does not enjoy working with any other dog on sheep and sometimes he will hang back and not participate much but take him solo to sheep and I can ask him for something and I can turn my back moving on to the next thing trusting him to take care of it. I did a sheepdog demo last year at an Irish festival and had 3 dogs with me. There were Hundred of people watching every time, 4 to 6 times a day for 2 days. Blu was working and people clapped you should have seem perk up. I joked that I was now going to clap for him when he worked at home. He is a quiet steady dog just a "way to go", or a "You rock" when we are done makes him happy.

 

Scott is young and can be a bit overzealous working but also sensitive. I walk a fine line with him, he benefits from information while working but neither my encouragement or correction need to be much. To hard of voice concerns him, to much encouragement can add to his jet fuel that he already has in abundance. The more experience and more mature he gets the less I feel inclined to talk to him. Meg is steady and serious. She came out of womb that way and at 4.5 that has not changed. There are times she is so focused on sheep you have to break that so she hears you. Sheep like her, she loves working ewes and lambs and they trust her, she moves them with quiet authority. I currently have 2 littermates, Ivy and Zeva. They could not be more different in personality and work. Both amazingly talented but need a different approach. Ivy is serious and took herself to sheep at 3.5 mo and began working like a 2 year old. She is sensitive and learns better doing real work and does not enjoy "training" so much. Zeva is always happy and happy to work no matter what, she is quite a bit like her father Scott and I anticipate she is going to excel at bigger flock work.

 

I have seen trainer and clinicians have One method and this is how they train. This is the only way and by golly the dog will have to adjust. I believe you have a basic training philosophy that is continuing to develop and adjust to the dog and circumstance as needed. My philosophy is everything I do needs to allow the dog to think and use their instinct. I will step in to help when I feel that is needed but I try to allow them time to figure things out. I put them in situations where this can happen with sheep that allow it in a space that allows it. Once they have some basics I expand to more difficult sheep, different fields, different tasks... My encouragement, corrections and praise vary with the dog and circumstance but my goal is always to have the dog thinking. They know that I will be there if they need help and I know they will give it their best. I feel you have to give them room and freedom to learn. Keeping them right - be it on a leash or a small space or easy sheep or telling them every move will not allow them to think for themselves. I need them to be able to work out of sight and without instruction. Much of my early instruction is to ensure they are able to do this. I insist on them respecting me and the sheep and the rest follows.

[mum24dog]

Also often the law too of course. People who don't think laws apply to them when those laws are in force for good reasons are a real bugbear of mine.

 

I don't care what their dogs can do; responsible citizens should set a good example.

 

Same reason why I also wait for the pedestrian light at crossings instead of taking my chances with a gap in the traffic. I probably wouldn't get killed if I did but the kid watching might.

[Laurelin]

Regarding off leash ability I just think that comes down mostly to breed and individual more than anything else. Some breeds seem to just be more prone to be spectacularly well behaved with not too much effort (on average, there's always anomalies!). BCs often are really nice dogs off leash. My shelties were very easy to train and naturally mannerly dogs in that way. I hesitate to say it was my training skills (I really had little at the time!) but more to do with their nature.

 

And then I got a terrier/cattle dog mix. Oh how humbling sometimes.

 

I use positive and negative feedback for my dogs. I find we develop a 'language' that works for us. I would say in training I am typically positive but in 'life skills' not always. The two don't always correlate to me and the aforementioned cattle dogx sometimes needs a stronger hand. I try to be fair and work on a partnership with my dogs.

 

I find my dogs understand positive and negative well. 'Ack', 'No', 'Whoops!', 'try again' as well as 'good', 'awesome', etc. I find the dog drives how much talking and encouragement I need. My soft little girl that is not really driven but is very biddable and 'honest' needed more praise and wilted with any kind of correction. I let her know when she is doing well and I visibly would see it affect her performance. Cattle dog x tends to tune out praise if he's in the game and I handle him in agility much more sparingly and with much more forceful commands. So I don't think one is inherently easier for dogs as a whole to understand. It's going to come down to that specific dog, that specific 'job' and the ability of the handler.

 

I think it really comes down to the fact that a lot of people just plain have poor timing and ability to read their dogs. Some people are very naturally gifted at this and then a lot of us fall in between. I have seen as much completely ineffective corrections as I have ineffective praise. I think nagging corrections are probably more detrimental in most cases.

[D'Elle]

 

One common misconception I hear a lot about R+ is that it's a "bribe" rather than a reward. Another is the assumption that R+ people have to use treats and praise forever, rather than fading them out.

 

Once established, tho, I bet both schools of trainers still need to randomly "review" once in a while...?

There are many, many misconceptions about positive reinforcement training, especially regarding the clicker. I have frequently had people say things to me like, "But what if you need your dog to come to you and you don't happen to have the clicker?", or, "But I am not going to take a clicker into the ring with me!!" I have had these same people say this same thing to me over and over again, while each time I try to explain to them, again, that that is not how you use a clicker. These people don't really have any interest in learning about +R training. These people, like the vast majority of people who criticize +R training, have never even tried it and do not know how it works, yet feel they can condemn it for not being practical, not useful in their situation, not fast enough, or you-fill-in-the-blank.

 

I do "review" with my dogs the things I have taught them, but I do not use the clicker when reviewing. The review is just to remind the dog, "remember? You know how to do this, too", if it has been a long time since we did that thing. The clicker is a training tool, and the only time the clicker would be needed after the behavior is learned would be if the dog completely forgot what to do, and you had to start over from the beginning to teach it again. I have not had that happen.

[Tea]

Denice, really good info

 

we all have a type of dog we like best. But we need to be able to adjust to all types. In some ways it seems all the dogs have pieces of the whole, but I like to think more like they are part of a team, each having a slightly different position.

 

I want to know how to train a lot of different types so my dogs all can do their tasks.

 

(Hum, what position does Blood Sucking Fly Man play?)

[GentleLake]

I use the lightest and thinnest lead I can find where the heelwork exercise dictates that I have to use one.

 

I used to walk Mirk on a piece of string in some places where leashes were required and used a very thin puppy leash in the obedience ring.

[GentleLake]

I am considering moving to a purely positive style, just because my temper recently has been worse and I find it harder to distinguish appropriate and inappropriate corrections when angry- and that's a worse problem than being unable to distinguish appropriate and inappropriate positive reinforcement when happy.

 

Big ol' fat like for this!

 

IMO it's one of the best reasons to use a +R style of training in that it's a terrific form of self instruction to be more mindful of the negative habit energies we tend to allow to control our interactions with others of all species.

[Alfreda]

(apologies, I can't seem to quote in snippets from all over except this way)

 

Donald McCaig, on 21 Sept 2015 - 15:04, said:

“Yes, corrections are simpler than praise. When I say "Ack" to Jake he understands "Don't do what you're doing." The tiny part of his brain which philosophizes may puzzle over what part of what he's doing is being corrected but Jake has learned it only involves his activity: he is putting himself where he should not be. Easy-peasy….”

 

This discussion’s been keeping me up at night. I was just dozing off when I suddenly remembered that back in January I asked a question in the stockdog training section under the title “Inside Flanks.” I asked for clarification about something I’d heard Patrick Shannahan say at a clinic.

 

He said: Don’t make the command the correction.

 

He recommended using all commands in a consistent, neutral, or even upbeat way. If a correction is necessary, use another word as the correction, -as opposed to yelling “Lie Down!” or using a gruffer voice for example. In an ideal world, he said, there would be a different correction word for every different transgression.

 

This surprised me since, tone of voice is often used to convey information in all kinds of dog training, and it seemed to fly in the face of what some other handlers do. Some (perhaps Donald is one) seem to have only one correction word (ACK). Others do add corrective information (tone) into the command itself. I believe Julie Hill has a progression of “correction” that goes: ask, tell, insist. I believe this information is also carried in her whistles? Certainly it’s in her body language. (Herding experts please correct or enlighten me J).

 

Then Airbear (Kristie) posted this: Posted 31 January 2015 - 12:57 PM

“I have different corrections on my current trial dogs. The rationale is that the dog should be given some clue as to what he is being corrected for. For example, if the dog takes the wrong flank, I growl "Listen ...". If the dog walks through a stop, I might bark out a "Hey!" If the dog slices his away to me flank, I will correct with "Do you hear me?" If he slices his come bye flank, I will correct with "What are you doing there?" And then there are the mild reminders of "keep" and "out", which I use at the pen when I want the dog to maintain distance on his flanks…While this seems complex, once the dog learns what each correction addresses, they seem to enjoy the clarity. “

 

What are the different schools of thought on this? (One general word or many with specificity? Make commands/whistles more insistent? Or not?). It sounds like Derek Scrimegeour uses tone within commands to imply praise, does he also do this with correction? How much variation among seasoned sheepdog trainers is there about the form and types of “correction?” Perhaps in herding there are “lumpers and splitters” just as there are in so many other fields? (Maybe this should be a new/separate stockdog thread…)

 

In any case, yeah, correction seems pretty dang COMPLEX to me! ;-)

[Alfreda]

So, Tea, about Blood Sucking Fly Man- did he get a lot of injuries or did he just have a lot of close calls? ;-)

 

My philosophy is everything I do needs to allow the dog to think and use their instinct. I will step in to help when I feel that is needed but I try to allow them time to figure things out. I put them in situations where this can happen with sheep that allow it in a space that allows it. Once they have some basics I expand to more difficult sheep, different fields, different tasks... My encouragement, corrections and praise vary with the dog and circumstance but my goal is always to have the dog thinking. They know that I will be there if they need help and I know they will give it their best. I feel you have to give them room and freedom to learn. Keeping them right - be it on a leash or a small space or easy sheep or telling them every move will not allow them to think for themselves. I need them to be able to work out of sight and without instruction. Much of my early instruction is to ensure they are able to do this. I insist on them respecting me and the sheep and the rest follows.

I like this ^^^ Denice, cool to hear about your dogs! Glad Blu got some applause!

 

So, lets say, you had a young dog, normally biddable and respectful off sheep, but in the first several times with sheep in a round pen, he disregards you, and is chasing, diving in and gripping-- how would you respond? It's not good to have him practice that behavior, but, he also doesn't yet know what to do. He's too amped-up to listen (although you can call him off.)

 

My inclination would be to set him up to be: 1) calmer (bigger area, heavier sheep, more sheep) and 2) to praise, or encourage for any glimmer of thoughtfulness or "correct" early skills. If things are going well, I can see the importance of shutting up and letting him feel and think and learn. But if things aren't going so well, some trainers would be fighting him off (the sheep) and using harsher and harsher corrections (to make him "respectful"). I've seen that frustrate dogs even more and lead to endless, frantic circling.

 

Just curious... Rebecca

[denice]

As I have had more dogs and done more training I have learned many things. Each dog is different so there is always some adjustment with each one. Not unlike children, personalities and the way they learn are different.

 

Jack Knox has been coming to do clinics here for about six years, I always learn more each time he is here. This year I had a couple 4 mo old pups that had been working just a bit so we talked about them a bit. I knew Jack walks all his dogs as a group off lead through his sheep pastures several times a day. I could do that with my older dogs but never have done that with the young ones. We finally got deep enough in the discussion for me to learn he feels this is an important piece of the training. Before the pups are turned on to sheep he walks them through the pastures and teaches them to stay with him and call off whatever they are interested in. He feels then when he takes them to sheep this is already in place, they respect him and will walk calmly away from sheep with him. This is not to say some dont get into chase mode but I do not take them into a bigger area until I am rather certain I can call them off or at least interrupt that chase focused only on sheep.

 

I think many of those dogs who ignore you inside the ring walk in the ring with the wrong attitude so I adjust that attitude before letting them loose. If they are pulling you to sheep you have not done enough off sheep.

 

Ok my pups were already turned on and wanting to work so I began on lead, then a longer lead then dragging a lead and then no lead. Establishing this early helps training sessions go well and little need for correction, it is mostly body positioning at the start getting them to balance, bring sheep, stop and call off. When needed I step in front of the sheep and just keep blocking the dog till he figures out he isn't going to get to them

[geonni banner]

(apologies, I can't seem to quote in snippets from all over except this way)

 

'snip'

 

In any case, yeah, correction seems pretty dang COMPLEX to me! ;-)

 

This is interesting…

 

I do have commands that could be construed as corrections. “Wait!” “Leave it” and “Leave the cat alone” come to mind.

 

“Wait” is used sometimes when the dog is displaying an inclination not to wait, as in the situation where a friend comes to the door to go dog-walking with me. If the dog is antsy wants to rush out to greet the person, I will say “wait” and the dog does. I think some would call this a correction. But I also use it as a command when I want the dog to wait in a situation that that may not ordinarily call for waiting. An example would be having her wait to jump up on the bed until I throw a blanket over it because she’s a little wet or dirty. This presupposes that she hasn’t shown a behavior that suggests she’s thinking of jumping up there. In that case “wait” would be more like a correction.

 

“Leave it” would be a correction if she was about to dive on a chicken bone on the sidewalk. “Leave it would be a command if I put a new stuffie on the coffee table that was not a dog toy, but might look like one to her.

 

“Leave the cat alone” would be a correction if she was playing too roughly with him, but might be a command if I saw that the cat was feeling poorly or just relaxing peacefully. This is very handy when the cat comes home from the vet, because he is crabby and sensitive for a couple hours afterward. (He hates riding in the car. He’s perfectly happy at the vet’s.)

 

Of course the difference is usually one of tone of voice. Commands are delivered in a calm voice. Corrections are a bit sterner, to downright cranky, when in a tense situation. The one that comes to mind is when Sugarfoot took me totally by surprise when she snatched up my neighbor’s nasty little Jack Russell Terrier and shook him like a rat. The command was “drop!” but the tone of voice was all angry rebuke. She spit him out instantly. The little creep was unhurt, but that didn’t make it OK. And I saw the whole thing 3 feet from me, and if the terrier was showing signs of hostility, they were invisible to me. He was, for once, not barking and snarling, and walking calmly past my dog, not looking at her. Both were unleashed.

 

I definitely have more than one word for corrections. I use “no” almost exclusively in training situations. It’s delivered quietly, and simply means, “That’s not what I want.” So it’s more of a way of supplying a hint to the dog to try something else. I also use it if the dogs seems to be thinking about blowing off a recall. Like if there’s a cat mincing across the driveway and she takes a second or two to consider turning and starting to move in my direction. In the second instant of her pause, I give her a “no,” and repeat the recall. It seems to act as a reset button, so the dog responds appropriately to the 2^nd recall command.

 

Outside of training I would most commonly say “Hey!” if I wanted something to stop instantly. Or “Knock it off” if the dog was simply annoying me. On the rare occasions that the dog earns a stern rebuke, the word is “BAAAAD!” in a deep, growly voice. She got that as I was frog-marching her away from the violated terrier. It made an impression. She hasn’t offered to grab an obnoxious little dog since then.

 

This is kind of what I mean when I say corrections don’t need to be phased out, the way food rewards do. I still had work ahead of me do teach Sugarfoot what I did want her to do when approached by a screeching little dog. (Or a non-screeching little dog. And yes, that sometimes includes food rewards - but not always - because if the little dog is making her tense, she cares nothing for treats.) But after that one bull's-eye correction she's crystal clear on the fact that I don't want her to grab it. What she does instead, is to sit, facing me (when in doubt, sit!) and give me eye-contact, and let me deal with the rest. Which is exactly what I want. And that is why I say that fair and well-timed corrections do not undermine a dog's trust in you.

[Tea]

I am careful, because I love my dogs. I try to let them learn in the open so they can get out of the way. He has not broken any bones-maybe a cracked rib- tho a few times I have to admit I was surprised his has not been badly hurt. He is tough as hell. His main thing was getting kicked and then bowled over when a cow charged him. (These are horned.) I am usually on a horse so I can help a lot more. He had to be taught to bite correctly, as he is, shall we say- grippy beyond the point of necessity. That dirty biting is an awful thing to me. I see a lot of photos of a dog jumping up high biting anything and hanging and being swung in the air? What is that? I like a dog to wait and at the end of a charge when the cow's head is down bite THE NOSE. And let go.They don't have to leap, their legs are under them to move out of the way. These dogs Live a long time because they are calm and wise. The cattle learn to respect but not to be afraid. If you are in the open, no fences and your dog scatters the cows- a ten minute job can take all day.

 

Tick learned to respect the cattle so then he would listen to me. But the thing is this, a dog like Tick even tho I love him and he is useful to me I personally would not breed. They are like a gun. And they need to be controlled mechanically in order to get the job done. And the cattle fight them. ( Remember the dog I couldn't use in the fire because no feel? That was tick.) I cannot trust Tick at a distance, he is what he is and it can come out.

 

Why would you want to breed a dog that was SO hard to train. And the chances of him getting killed in the beginning was so high?

 

I love Tick, his little swaggering personality is very amusing. And he is very useful. I mean that he now IS very useful But.....

 

I have dogs that a child on a good horse could go gather cattle and it would not look like much, and the dog would do this with little training. That is what I like, no drama. And then I can day dream and write poetry.

 

The cattle like that too.

 

Also Tick cannot be worked on sheep. And I raise sheep too.

 

I know what could have happened to tick during training, if he had gotten into different hands. That's why it is important to share this. Tick would have been killed, shot or shocked.

 

It took me three years to train him. Train him it tried my patience to the limit- It should be bred in with only the real work in mind.

 

Sorry if this is off topic.

[Pam Wolf]

<shaking head in disbelief I am even participating in this one>

Donald, simply your experiences are very limited! I suggest you check out dogstardaily.com . It is a free site with tons of wonderful information by many different writers on the merits of positive dog training. it seems you mistake the beginning of training with bad results. True too many use lures such as food or tools such as clickers way longer than they could, but that does not make the method wrong/bad, but rather shows a lack of knowledge on the part of the'trainer'.

 

I would/do start puppy classes off leash. Not adult classes UNLESS I know the dogs and their friendliness towards each other. The lead when using positive for teaching (dogs which do not know behaviours) is to prevent problems from dogs which have less than ideal socialization to other people and other dogs. It is for safety ION, NOT to yank/jerk the dog in order to get it to behave properly.

 

A comparison of sheepherding-an instinctive behavior, and agility-a purely 'taught' behavior is absurd! That is one reason so many BC's are 'over the top' when doing agility. The drive built into (breeding) the BC for herding is the strongest there is, it is an 'abnormal' drive in the grand scheme of things. That we can get a male (stud dog) to work next to a female in standing heat (and she working too) shows just HOW strong the drive is. This is motivation for 'herding' (modified hunting-getting food as it were).

 

Agility is not something the dog does instinctively. Yes, a dog MAY go over an obstacle, but not naturally in the way it is required for agility. IOW it takes a different sort of training for a non natural sport such as agility because the dog does not have the internal motivation, it is external-often in treats, tug toys etc.

 

And it is possible to teach a dog to 'internalize' the reward of doing learned behaviours, few ever take training this far. This is only done via positive training. It is not a failure of the method, but a failure of the trainer.

 

And even positive training requires punishment to be effective. But punishment is only effective if it is done properly. It need not be harsh (shock collar, jerk, whatever) to be effective, but it HAS to be meaningful to the dog. A dog which is not doing well in stock work training and you feel the dog is 'blowing you off' can simply be removed from the work. The dog WANTS to do the work, but is performing poorly so you crate him away from the sheep.

 

Most sheep training is based on negative reinforcement. Praise can and is given even by some of the top handlers when starting a dog. It is a positive feedback. If the praise is distracting to the dog, then the handler has made a mistake, NOT the dog. IOW the handler has miscued the dog and the dog stops working, looks at the handler, or comes over for more praise. I've seen dogs trained with praise and dogs trained only with punishment(yelling at the dog when it is wrong, ignoring it when it is right) and I see some sad dogs (my perception based on their behaviour). I see dogs confused, unsure etc.

 

Now, if the dog is bred well with lots of natural ability the ignore the right, correct the wrong will work, but it depends again on the trainer, do they recognize the wrong in time? The problem with this sort of training is that frequently for the hobby and sport trainers is they lack the timing and ability to recognize the precursors of a behaviour thus making their timing of punishment poor. This is why I clicker trained my pony. I simply do not know horsey behaviour as well as I know doggie behaviour.

[Maja]

It took me three years to train him. Train him it tried my patience to the limit-

Darinka by comparison sounds like angel through and through.

[Alfreda]

I knew Jack walks all his dogs as a group off lead through his sheep pastures several times a day.

Denise, thanks for sharing that- I'm sure that BC pups can absorb a lot about appropriate behavior and attitudes towards stock from the culture of older dogs that they grow up with and from daily farm routines.

[Alfreda]

I have dogs that a child on a good horse could go gather cattle and it would not look like much, and the dog would do this with little training. That is what I like, no drama. And then I can day dream and write poetry.

 

The cattle like that too.

Like this ^^^! And also your description of teaching an appropriate grip. It sounds like you taught him what *to do* in order to replace the dirty bites he was doing.

 

...Your description of great riding made me want to hurry up and get reincarnated so that in my next life I could try to accomplish something so fine! :-)

[Alfreda]

Maja wrote:

“To make a long process short, I came to the conclusion that border collies more than most dogs have been bred to work for the human not only without an external reward, but that they were bred to give up on the self rewarding behavior (doing something with sheep after their own desires) for the sake of cooperation with the human (so basically - I am doing something and my reward is that I gave up something more fun, in order to do that something) . That lead me to realize that early training should promote this sort of bond and desire, that it should help the pup develop the sense that the grandest thing ever is doing things together for the sake of doing it together, not treats attached.

 

Maja, you’ve had a really interesting journey! Thank you for sharing about your dogs and the evolution in your philosophy of training! This post and your other one really had me thinking! It reminded me of the issue of intrinsic vs extrinsic motivation, which is an area of debate and research in human fields of education/psychology/business as well.

 

“There is punishment unseen, and praise unspoken….”

True! …. Your ballet teacher sounds very exacting! Very high standards/ expectations. In an atmosphere of disapproval, the slightest acknowledgment or nod, can carry so much weight. I imagine that in an atmosphere of approval, the slightest frown might carry a lot of weight too?

 

I flunked out of ballet by the age of 6, after a very brief stint. Took up swimming. Your post (and others') made me reflect on coaches and teachers I had in the past, and what motivated me in different settings.

 

In swimming, it’s basically about speed. Stroke perfection serves efficiency and therefore speed. (Unlike herding it’s not complex cognitively) Looking back, I think I worked hard to be noticed- that is, for the positive regard of both the coach and my teammates. I also worked hard for the internal pleasure of winning (against others, or against my own time). In stroke clinics, I worked based on a desire to improve. I used feedback that was both corrective (don’t cross your midline with your hand) and positive (do brush your thigh with your thumb before drawing it out of the water). The feedback I remember now was more about what to do, as opposed to what not to do. But none of that feedback would have made any difference if I wasn’t internally motivated to swim better/faster in the first place.

 

One herding trainer I took a clinic with said of my young dog “He doesn’t want to make himself uncomfortable for you.” On sheep, he was right. The prey drive was more powerful than the desire to work with me. He didn’t even have a clue that teamwork was what it was all about.

 

But the instructor went on to say “It’s as if he’ll go into a crate if you’re holding a treat, but not if the treat’s not there.” This comment I thought was not accurate. Although I trained some things with treats initially, off-sheep my dog does lots of things (without treats) that he’d prefer not to do: toe nails clipped, burs brushed out, re-call away from interesting people/dogs and even from squirrels and rabbits… etc… But on sheep, the instructor had a point.

[Alfreda]

A comparison of sheepherding-an instinctive behavior, and agility-a purely 'taught' behavior is absurd!

 

....(snip)

Now, if the dog is bred well with lots of natural ability the ignore the right, correct the wrong will work, but it depends again on the trainer, do they recognize the wrong in time?

 

Agree! When Donald first offered his primers on “correction” and “praise,” he alluded to the differences between highly instinctual activities like herding and other activities like agility and trick training, which involve (as Mara lynn, and Pam and many others have said) step-by-step learning, and which also DO NOT involve a third species with minds and agendas of their own.

 

We have a lot of agreement about that difference, so, I was expecting that maybe Donald would back-up his assertion that praise (or positive feedback) is not as useful or effective or as simple as correction (or negative feedback) in herding.

 

There might be good reasons to emphasize negative feedback (corrections) in herding that have to do with tradition, or what handlers have been taught. But I keep wondering: is there some more compelling reason that herding might REQUIRE or benefit from the use of negative feedback over positive?

 

I was trying to imagine an analogy to support Donald's assertion: eg: If a complex behavior comes out of the dog in bigger chunks and whole patterns as it does in herding (gather, fetch, stalk, drive, balance, hold), then perhaps shaping that is more like sculpture? A sculptor works in negative space from a whole piece of stone and chips away at it until she refines it into the desired image. The sculptor takes *away* what she doesn’t want.

 

A stonemason OTOH, builds a chimney by adding stone by stone, one on top of the other. Choosing each stone for its shape and qualities that will result in making a whole structure.

 

Thinking this way, I can almost imagine an argument that “allowing the good and correcting the bad,” might be a better, more efficient approach for sculpting a sheepdog. At least that would be an interesting hypothesis... But it would only be a hypothesis, one we’d want to test and compare with attempts to use only positive feedback on shaping the instinctual chunks.

 

And then there are those dogs that come to instinctual activities (shall we say) differently endowed. These include the herd dogs that are perhaps very “keen” but maybe not so “talented.” Or talented in one aspect (say, gathering) but dangerous in another (bloody gripping). These are the dogs that (as Tea describes) require a “mechanical,” step-by-step approach because the chunks of behavior they naturally offer are problematic, or less “well-shaped.” My gut tells me that clear use of BOTH positive and negative feedback might be even more important in working with these kinds of dogs. But I don't know.

 

In practice, it sounds as if most trainers (regardless of sport) are actually using both negative and positive forms of feedback. (and a range of R+, R-, P+, P-) The emphasis differs. The dog(s) differ. The experience and skill of the handlers differ.

 

This discussion has been making me reflect on the overall AMOUNT of feedback different individuals give, as well as the degree to which some trainers let the environment and experience teach the dog. A cow can give a dog both positive and negative feedback in the way she reacts to him. That can be a very powerful education. Likewise, I would suggest that a mother dog gives both positive and negative feedback to her pups (as does a pack).

[denice]

Allowing the right and ignoring the right are two very different things to me. I know Jack says to allow the right and correct the wrong, very possible other trainers say that say thing. I find people that are at clinics with their dogs seem to mostly be of two extremes with a few in the middle. Either folks wanting perfection and pushing a dog to get what they consider perfect or folks that have little idea what good looks like but know what bad is so they are on the dog quite a bit trying to keep it from making mistakes and therefore over correct. Many expect to much to quick, some do not take care of the beginning steps but want to advance without the dog being ready. It takes years of experience and many dogs and lots of time working stock to get to the point where you are comfortable with what good/right is and what is not acceptable. Even then you need to make allowances for the dog. Similar gripping from a 6 mo old pup and 4 yr old dog with sheep experience I would suspect is going to be treated a bit differently. I have been working sheep with border collies for 16 yrs and have a long way to go but try to improve and learn something from every dog I work.

 

As I said earlier good trainers adjust to each dog and each situation. I can not imagine myself not giving a dog input about what he is doing right and what is not right, especially when young. I find them equally helpful if done well. Possibly equally harmful if not done well.

I have had dogs like Teas Tick - talented but grippy buggers. Is that grip from lack of maturity or lack of confidence or do I cause it...I dont know but I do know that consistent grippy dog does not suit me because they make me nervous and that affects the dog and makes things worse. I had a pup I raised that was driving me crazy, just could not figure it out and could not trust him. Kevin Evans was here for a clinic and I told him this young dog was his project for the duration of the clinic. I had tried everything short of Major physical correction and only worked him on a long line because that is the only way I was comfortable. In one session Kevin had that dog working better than he ever did for me. Kevin asked how does he know inside flanks and driving and everything? I told him I had been working with him on a line but didn't trust him off a line. He worked that dog he was great, I worked him - he was an alligator. Rather humbling experience when that happens.

 

I have a pup now that is to tight on her outruns but she is only 9 mo old and both parents are plenty wide. I could push her out and make her right, correct her for being to tight. The other option is to give her time and change her sheep so they "correct" her for being tight or work a larger group ect. I have decided to wait on her for many reasons - 1- I know the parents who are both plenty wide, 2- she learns best from real experiences not training, 3- she is only 9 mo old 4 I see glimpses of it coming 5 there is a vast difference when dogs self correct than those we correct. If they self correct they have Got It, if we correct then often we have to continue to be aware of that issue.

 

We can talk forever about praise, encouragement, correction but it will only get us so far. So much depends on the dog and circumstance not to mention the person who is correcting or encouraging. Taking a young dog to sheep that break and run so he then chases - is it fair that we correct? Maybe we should have a smaller area or appropriate sheep for his level of maturity and capability? A dog that has has never experienced sheep that face him is it fair that we get disgusted that he cant move them or that he bites because he is uncomfortable? A dog pulling you to sheep and walk in the pasture gate and let go so he is off like a missal whos fault is that, not the dogs i would say.

 

People are to quick to attribute fault to the dog and credit themselves when things go well. I am just the opposite, when things are not good I think what did I do or didn't I do that contributed to that. When things go great and one of my dogs amaze me I think Wow what great instinct that dog has. My part in things going well is minor - I only have to get out of their way and be quiet thus allowing the right.

[Root Beer]

I would be very interested to know if there are any handlers who have trained their dogs to a high level of success in competition (any venue) in Agility without using treats, toys, or corrections . . . nothing but praise. I don't mean they have taught their dogs to run through a tunnel or take a single jump or to do a simple sequence of two or three pieces of equipment using nothing but praise, but the whole shebang: jumps, weaves, contacts, tunnels, table, chute, etc., to a high level of course competency. To a level of skill that is consistent and enduring through the highest level in the handler's chosen venue.

 

I'd be very surprised if this were the case, but if anyone is out there who has, I am interested in hearing those names!

 

This has absolutely nothing to do with stockwork or basic pet manners. I am interested in this strictly in an Agility context.

 

Praise alone . . . anyone?