Mary & Dogs Posted December 5, 2002 Report Share Posted December 5, 2002 Is this a common practice. I got an e-mail re a site for sports border collies. These people had bred a female to two different males and were going to use DNA to tell with sire went with which puppy. Anyway, I think that is what they were doing. Have you heard of this practice? I can see if there was a mistake and two males managed to breed the same bitch. But on purpose? ------------------ Mary Hartman Kansas City, MO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted December 5, 2002 Report Share Posted December 5, 2002 I can see it now, Jerry Springer does, "Hey, Dog, are you this bitch's Daddy?"... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted December 5, 2002 Report Share Posted December 5, 2002 Since the dogs which are sires are father and son, I wonder how that will affect the results of the DNA? Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary & Dogs Posted December 5, 2002 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2002 I guess I have had it all wrong all these years. I thought you bred one male to one female - and not to close relatives. Pam - maybe that explains Bandit. ------------------ Mary Hartman Kansas City, MO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted December 5, 2002 Report Share Posted December 5, 2002 Fathers and sons, assuming different mothers - will have traceable genetic material... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted December 5, 2002 Report Share Posted December 5, 2002 Bill, checked it out with some friends who are PHD's--one a biochemist, the other a physical chemist. Both seemed to think that in such a case, depending on the relationships between the sire's dam and the son's dam, the accuracy would drop to at least the 75% range (actually, the biochemist thought more like 60% but that was just off the top of her head.). If there is a good base line from both sires, it would bring the accuracy up more. But even with today's technology the accuracy of paternity tests is not 100% Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted December 5, 2002 Report Share Posted December 5, 2002 Well, that depends... One way to up your odds would be to have the DNA of the mother of the son checked...and then you could get pretty close to 100%...that is, if her DNA was found in a pup, then you're pretty sure of the path the genetic material has traveled... Otherwise, at first thought, there is at least 1/8 of different genetic material in the pups...and maybe more, I haven't a ton of time to trace the paths out (and to be honest, since I'm not likely to ever do it, and it isn't my exact area of expertise, I'm not terribly interested except academically - Denise where are you?). So it depends on the quality of the isolation of the genetic material and the methods used to assay it...our lab monkeys here think it wouldn't be terribly hard... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com [This message has been edited by PrairieFire (edited 12-11-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted December 5, 2002 Report Share Posted December 5, 2002 I've heard of this happening accidentally, but never intentionally. Sounds like more AKC nonsense. ------------------ Bill Fosher Surry, NH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JEL Posted December 6, 2002 Report Share Posted December 6, 2002 My only question is - to play devils advocate - is to ask...is this a bad thing? What if you took the time and trouble to breed to Joe Famous stud dog, and your female came home and accidently bred to your good ol' homeboy? Do you write it off and give away the pups of unknown parentage; or would you rather have the option of DNA'ing and being able to register? What if you were importing a bred bitch? If you were a breeder, and you bothered to go overseas and search for that special female whose bloodlines and working ability had you drooling, and before importing her - you had the opportunity to choose the stud dog she was bred to - what if there were two different but equally appealing stud dogs...being that she's leaving the country for good, wouldn't it be nice NOT to have to choose, but breed to both? And lastly, after hearing time and again what a crap shoot breeding can be, even when you're breeding 2 nice working dogs - sometimes the "mix" just isn't what you'd hoped for, and the pups just don't meet expectations - doesn't it almost make sense to breed to two different males? [bear with me...] lets say you breed to male #1 and have 6 pups, and the breeding was a disappointment to you; so next time you breed to male #2 and have 6 more pups, and you're much happier with this breeding. Well - you've produced and sent 12 puppies off into the world for the one dog that you were looking for. OTOH, you could breed to both males at once, have 6 puppies, and get the dog you wanted with only bringing half the "excess" into the world. Ok - I know its just not that black-and-white (!) but do you at least see where I'm going? Unless you sold the other 11 pups on spay/neuter contracts, and followed up to ensure compliance, you could unwittingly be contributing to future substandard breedings. (even assuming litter #2 was *perfect* and each and every pup was deemed outstanding and worthy of being bred - you'd still have 6 substandard pups from litter #1.) Anyway, all I'm getting at, is that just because alot of AKC-minded folk will no doubt use this as another marketing tool for selling puppies, doesn't make the concept - used for the right reasons - a bad idea...or does it? Janet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted December 6, 2002 Report Share Posted December 6, 2002 "you'd still have 6 substandard pups from litter #1.)" Incorrect reasoning, Janet. Just because an expereinced, traditional herding person may not repeat a breeding doesn't mean that the breeding produced "substandard pups" - if the breeding was a proper one in the first place, the pups are probably well above standard - but perhaps just not what the working breeder was looking for. Incorrect conclusions don't invalidate the question, however, it is an interesting one... My first problem would be the "akc dna testing program"... Since I don't trust the akc to do ANYTHING right, why would I think they would test properly? Proper and correct dna testing is much more complicated than you see on CSI... As Pam pointed out, mistakes can very easily and simply be made - if things are NOT handled properly...and doing it right is VERY costly...I'm guessing that to test and to do a PROPER comparative assay on every pup in a litter of 11 pups, for example, SHOULD cost around $100 for each pup....using the "bleeding edge" of testing materials and methods, and gels and "readings" by QUALIFIED persons...I haven't the foggiest what the akc charges, what labs they send to, or the qualifications of the personel taking samples, transporting samples, storing samples, testing samples and reading samples. And I won't even mention "chain of custody" if samples are swabbed, say, at a local vet's office...and mailed...and... I'm certain they will tell you it is topnotch. But disregarding that, even...the breeding to two males seems to be one of those problems inherent in our society - "Y'know, I just can't make up my mind, so I'll breed her to both", "Y'know I just can't make up my mind to stay married...to beleive in something besides Entertainment Tonight...to vote for a politician because they stand for something, not because they have good commercials...to investigate, and research, and ponder, and talk to others and DECIDE on bloody SOMETHING." It seems a shallow and hollow method of satisfying human ego rather than making proper choices. Just a friday morning rant. ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com [This message has been edited by PrairieFire (edited 12-06-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted December 6, 2002 Report Share Posted December 6, 2002 Hi Janet, My feeling is that you should choose a sire for a litter and see how it goes. If it doesn't work, you don't repeat it. If it does, you do. It seems to me that it would be a lot easier to judge whether a breeding worked if you had six pups than if you had three. The whole DNA test seems like an added expense that accomplishes nothing other than allowing someone to essentially get two litters out of one bitch in one season. And, as others have pointed out, you have to hope that the DNA tests are accurate. Depending on how closely related the two dogs are, the odds of getting an accurate result approach those of a coin toss. In your scenario of an imported bitch, this might make some sense, but less so now that the quarrantine restrictions to the UK have been lifted. If you simply must have that second set of genes, you could always send the bitch back, or bring the dog over for breeding. And let's not forget about AI. I've also heard of a person who owns a bitch in Scotland and imports pups from her as she needs them. The bitch lives with a shepherd where she gets regular work, and the two of them work out a breeding plan for her every now and again. My sense is that if you can't decide what dog to take the bitch to, you probably don't know enough about either dog. ------------------ Bill Fosher Surry, NH [This message has been edited by Bill Fosher (edited 12-06-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary & Dogs Posted December 6, 2002 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2002 I can't really see anything ethically wrong with this - its just kind of a wierd thing to do. Could this be the wave of the future? You would have to have all of the puppies DNA tested and that would be a lot of money. And like was pointed out - if both sires were closely related I would worry about the accuracy of the DNA testing. And, not knowing anything at all about DNA testing I would worry about being sold a bill of goods. I'll bet there are a lot of breedings out there that might really be multiple sire breedings - the result of an accident - and no one ever says anything to anyone. They just go ahead and register the puppies and keep quiet about it. Now that is unethical. But this breeder is very upfront about the whole thing. People buying these puppies would know exactly what they are getting. And maybe in the world of competitive sports this is not a big issue. I don't know because I haven't ever been around the sports dog people. Do the sports dogs have to be registered to compete? I do know that if I was buying a good working dog I would want to know exactly what the bloodlines were, I would want to see the parents. I would really like to see a close relative work before it was trained so I could see what the natural ability was like. And I would be looking for the most ethical breeder I could find. Finding a really nice working dog is hard enough without having to worry about stuff like DNA testing. ------------------ Mary Hartman Kansas City, MO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted December 6, 2002 Report Share Posted December 6, 2002 Bill Fosher wrote: "My sense is that if you can't decide what dog to take the bitch to, you probably don't know enough about either dog." Well said. You should be EXCITED about the dogs you breed - you should wait, breathlessly and with great anticipation, for them to be old enough to take to stock - you should say, "My god, I LOVE the way that bitch turned that bull!" and "That dog is the pushiest son of a gun in the county, I can't wait to see what his son's gonna be like!". Not, "Well, let's just breed a bunch and assume we get the best of both." ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JEL Posted December 6, 2002 Report Share Posted December 6, 2002 Interesting points from both the Bills... I'm not a proponent - but I guess I'd have to say I'm not against it. I guess (and since I'm not a breeder, I probably don't have a right to make an opinion..but what the heck - ?!?!?) I think it sounds like a valuable tool to have available...certainly better than the "accidental breeding" scenario where the breeder says, "well, the pups do kinda LOOK like so-and-so; he must be their pappy...." I'd rather pay an extra $100 or so on the puppy price for the DNA test, over the "look" test, if I was buying from that litter. [or maybe I just don't buy from that litter - ???] Maybe its something best left for occasional and last resort use, rather than something to rely on consistently...? Or is it something best avoided, even at the cost of the disappointment incurred when you have a planned breeding; and an "accident" occurs? Bill G: I've never watched CSI....am I missing something good? Better than Quincy? (anybody remember Jack Klugman as the intrepid Medical Examiner?) Janet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted December 6, 2002 Report Share Posted December 6, 2002 Janet - watching CSI can be highly amusing to anyone with a scientific or engineering background...one can feel quite superior poking fun at the "deep thinking"...much like Quincy - at least before Jack Klugman got to do those 5 minute monologues... I treat it like Misty3K (Mystery Science Theater 3000), sardonic comments issued sotto voice, or appropriately hollered out...sometimes accompanied by the waving of arms, hopping up and down, or the throwing of toast at the screen... I would propose that if someone isn't certain who bred thier bitch, that that would be a breeding you would want to avoid - heck, it might have been a "well-heeled traveling man"... Tools are tools. DNA testing is exactly that. When used as a marketing tool to enhance and encourage the distribution of pups, it is heinous - not unlike ANY tool that is used for that purpose - health checks, "titles", whatever - ANYTHING that is used, not to ensure a "proper" breeding, but to insure that the breeder can sell the pups, preferably at a premium... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com [This message has been edited by PrairieFire (edited 12-06-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted December 6, 2002 Report Share Posted December 6, 2002 I can see the puprose of such a breeding in the case of an imported bitch, but can't understand it to a father and son. Way back, the old timers (even older than me) said "if you like a dog, breed to the sire". I could understand the DNA test (although w/o mitochodrial DNA information I question the accuracy--assuming they do not have it))in the case of a mismating, but the web site gives me the impression of an intentional breeding. I cannot understand this. I can see it as an effort to produce fewer litters. When you think of it, it is sorta convenient. You can have 2 smaller litters (a bitch will only have so many pups) sired by 2 different dogs. Could be thought of as a way to cut down on the number of litters.(insert smiley face here) And, as Mary said, I'd want to know that the dog I choose was the sire (granted, in most cases we only have the breeder's word), and in this example, I would really have to look into the accuracy of the testing. If the 2 sires were essentially unrelated, I don't think the problem would be such a big deal to me since the chances of accuracy would be much greater. Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawna Posted December 7, 2002 Report Share Posted December 7, 2002 Several years ago I was given a gorgeous welsh stallion who couldn't be registered because his mother had been put in with another stallion without waiting to see if she had caught from the first one. Although the Welsh Pony Club didn't do DNA testing, they were willing to accept the results done by the American Quarter Horse Association. They needed far more than just one sample from mom and the two possible sires. They said to be accurate they needed samples from several offspring from both sires and other offspring from the mother. The whole thing was very involved in order to be accurate and very costly. Consequently he is now a gelding. I can see doing the testing in an accidental breeding but to breed to two sires on purpose just to boost sales, which is what this sounds like, is, in my opinion, wrong. As was mentioned earlier, if you can't make up your mind which sire to choose then you haven't done enough research in the first place and I would question your ability to breed good dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBluez Tess Posted December 12, 2002 Report Share Posted December 12, 2002 What is the ABCA policy on this? Say this person does the AKC multisire DNA tests and Puppy 1,2,3 are puppies of Rover Pyppy 4,5 are puppies of Spot Will ABCA take 2 litter registrations? Filled out on two different forms and sent in the second one after the first one has been registered Or can the breeder send in only a litter registration for Rover's pups? Diane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest C Denise Wall Posted December 12, 2002 Report Share Posted December 12, 2002 "What is the ABCA policy on this? Say this person does the AKC multisire DNA tests and Puppy 1,2,3 are puppies of Rover Pyppy 4,5 are puppies of Spot Will ABCA take 2 litter registrations?" Yes, with the appropriate DNA test documentation. We are in the process of writing a policy including approved labs and procedures. At this time, it is being handled on a case by case basis. C. Denise Wall ABCA Director Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tucknjill Posted December 12, 2002 Report Share Posted December 12, 2002 Hey Denise, What about frozen Semen? I am thinking about putting Tuck on ice and wondered if I had to do anything special? Thanks, Sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest C Denise Wall Posted December 12, 2002 Report Share Posted December 12, 2002 Sam - There will also be a policy on this but in the past I believe most people have considered it like any AI (artifcial insemination) breeding and just signed the stud forms as the day bred like a live cover. I have AI'd two litters myself this way (singleton litters - Kate and Mick) but using fresh semen. Denise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tucknjill Posted December 12, 2002 Report Share Posted December 12, 2002 Thanks! Just making sure I cover all my bases as I understand it is expensive and I dont want to not be able to use it if I choose...Missed you at Jeffs!!! Best, Sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ts Posted December 13, 2002 Report Share Posted December 13, 2002 Sam, Before I neutered Tux, I had his semen collected twice for a total cost of $200.00 which included his DNA test. The vet also checked the quality of the semen before freezing. The vet was a fertility specialist referred to me by Michigan State. Tux's semen is stored in a sperm bank in California for a cost of $60. annually. (I got "secret numbers" to order its release, etc.) Tweed is an A-I. The cost to A-I the bitch (not mine) and the tests to insure when she is optimally ready was only $130. Conversing with this vet was very interesting. He said that the newest thing that he was doing for the AKC folks was A-I ing the bitch to multiple males per breeding. By having pups from numerous selected males, the breeder "thought" that he could easily determine which male that the bitch crossed best with. The breeder then knew which male to breed her to in the future. PLEASE NOTE: I AM JUST REPEATING INFO AND NOT GIVING AN OPINION. Denise, I am glad that the ABCA is going to develope a policy. When I did the A-I over 2 years ago, the association did not have a policy and really didn't know what to do. We ended up just registering the pups the regular way. Does anyone know if they have ever embryio transplanted bitches like they do sheep and cattle? Finally, I respectfully disagree with both Bills when they say "If you can't decide which dog to take the bitch to, you probably don't know enough about either dog." The good breeders that I know almost know too much about the potential dogs that they consider. They have considered their faults, their progency, their trial record, etc. They are not "stable blind" and carefully consider the faults in their bitches that they consider good enough to breed. Then they need to decide if they want to breed for like or to compensate for weaknesses. Should you line breed or go for an outstide cross? Still they worry if they have chosen correctly. And they won't know for sure if they made the right decision until those pups are 2-3 yrs. and fully trained. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBluez Tess Posted December 13, 2002 Report Share Posted December 13, 2002 >>Yes, with the appropriate DNA test documentation<< What if the sires were father and son. I believe it is over 99% accurate but not 100%. Diane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted December 13, 2002 Report Share Posted December 13, 2002 While my background is a little different than Denise's - I work in an environment where we make and test hundred's of dna and rna test protocols a year - and market the protocols, reagents, and automoated equipment for labs and clinics...the various gene whizzes ("lab monkeys") here think that we could tell you 100% with relatively fresh blood - and if you could throw in the blood of the mother of the son - then definitely 100%...under our conditions. One of the reasons I think that Denise mentions "approved labs" is the HUGE variablity of testing - and handling - and reading... Aw, Terry, "respectfully" disagreeing, that's no fun...but I understand what you are saying - but the caveats you mention would apply even if you bred the bitch to a dozen sires...wouldn't it? ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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