A potentially stupid question

[MrSnappy]

I need some advice about my dog who is developing an annoying and frustrating habit of going wide on her go bye side and circling the sheep. She's just 11 months so she's barely begun training, and we've worked her enough to get her to take pressure nice and move around pretty well, but now I'm asking her to stay behind the sheep and she's developing this new habit. She responds to the slightest movement on the away side and corrects herself and gets back behind the sheep, but she REALLY wants to circle on her go bye side and I usually can't get out there fast enough to stop her from circling that way and getting back behind the sheep again a full 180.

 

She seems to have no respect for the stick (or me) on that particular direction and though I've tried running into her on my trainers advice to turn her back, she's just a heck of a lot faster than me, and every time she gets away with it, she's more determined the next time out. I work with very sticky sheep and I've been trying to turn them into her so she doubles back to her balance point but she prefers to go AROUND them and then balance again.

 

What I've been working on is getting her stay back farther from the sheep with a "get back" when I'm walking her up, because it only seems to happen when she gets in too close and gets really excited. Then she sort of spins off and circles around the sheep before I can stop her. She gets frustrated because control is new for her, and she eventually can't contain herself and blows past me, at distance of about 20 feet, and circles them.

 

Should I use the fence to keep her behind the sheep, since at this point I know from experience she is not likely to get in between the sheep and the fence very often?

 

Please be kind, I am very new at working a decent dog. My other dog is mostly a hopeless case of really eager and really hard headed. He doesn't respect pressure at all and will take a stick in the face without a flinch. So he's just my for fun dog. But my little bitch works so nice and I don't want to screw her up TOO badly. My trainer is very good, but I figure out suggestions can't hurt.

 

Anyone?

 

RDM

[blackacre]

Originally posted by MrSnappy:

I need some advice about my dog who is developing an annoying and frustrating habit of going wide on her go bye side and circling the sheep. . . She responds to the slightest movement on the away side and corrects herself and gets back behind the sheep, but she REALLY wants to circle on her go bye side . . .

RDM

Oops, gotta get a grip on the technology here.

It sounds to me that the problem is that your dog favours the come bye and is not comfortable on the away, especially when she has to go to their heads on the away. (This would be quite unexceptional in an 11 month old dog by the way. ) Therefore, when you try to block her, she tries to beat you by going out wider so that she can keep going around on the favoured side.

However, I may have misunderstood the scenario you describe, so I have some questions for you.

Does she get to their heads in good order on the away?

When you are flanking her around the sheep, is she quick to flip back to come bye at the least change in direction of the sheep?

When you say she is quick to correct herself on the away side, are you saying she overruns the balance point going away and then flips back to the come bye to cover?

Depending on whether your answers confirm the assumption I am making, you may have to insist that she go away ASSUMING SHE IS READY FOR THIS KIND OF PRESSURE, and without making a big deal about it. Your trainer would be able to say whether indeed she is robust enough to take this kind of pressure at this pont, but since she/he is trying to get you to block her, then it sounds like she thinks the dog can take it.

To block effectively, you ideally need to be working in a round pen, 60' diameter at least. That way, the dog can only go out so far and you can step into her from your position on the inside of the circle. That is, you need to be right with the sheep, following the dog around as she flanks. From there, it is but a few steps outwards to block her.

If you have to work in a larger area, then you can put her on a long line (20-25 feet). Then when she tries to zoom past you on the come bye, you can step on it and give her a sharp verbal correction. You will now be in control and can enforce an away flank back to where she should have been in the first place.

Ideally of course, if you have a solid lie down, you can insist that she stops in the right position. Use the long line to accomplish this if you are not in the round pen. A reliable stop will do wonders. You can now help the dog do it right.

 

What I've been working on is getting her stay back farther from the sheep with a "get back" when I'm walking her up, because it only seems to happen when she gets in too close and gets really excited.

 

I do not favour this (at this point). You are increasing the pressure on her in the place she feels most uncomfortable, ie behind the sheep and just starting to walk up. This is a high pressure situation for a dog, the place where she must take control of the sheep and direct them, rather than just containing them by circling at a distance. Better to control the initial engagement in a round pen, or by enforcing the lie down--in increments if necessary, or by putting her on a long line as above.

 

Should I use the fence to keep her behind the sheep, since at this point I know from experience she is not likely to get in between the sheep and the fence very often?

 

Again, I do not favour this. Your dog feels pressure going away, especially to their heads. Getting her behind the sheep means she must go between the sheep and a fence This is a HIGH PRESSURE for a young dog. If you mean using the fence to stop her before she gets around them, you are just avoiding the problem and reinforcing her reluctance to go around the sheep on that side.

 

BTW, I should add that some trainers are not bothered by a one-sided dog of this age and feel that if you just let them go the way they are comfortable without ever insisting that they go to their bad side, that they will eventually come to it naturally.

BTW2, some trainers would suggest you put the dog away for a couple of months at least. However, I assume that you are like me and can't stand to do this. Your choice, just offering alternatives.

A.

[MrSnappy]

Originally posted by blackacre:

It sounds to me that the problem is that your dog favours the come bye and is not comfortable on the away, especially when she has to go to their heads on the away. (This would be quite unexceptional in an 11 month old dog by the way. ) Therefore, when you try to block her, she tries to beat you by going out wider so that she can keep going around on the favoured side.

Yes, I think you are correct in this. She tends to come in a lot closer on the away and goes really wide on the go bye. She sometimes sheds off the last sheep and tried to chase it down on her away side, which is something she never does on her go bye. So probably she's not as comfortable going the other way.

 

So am I focusing too much on her going past me on the go bye when I should be working on her away and getting her more comfortable?

 

Does she get to their heads in good order on the away?

I'm sorry, I'm not sure how to answer that because I'm not really sure what you're asking ...?

 

When you are flanking her around the sheep, is she quick to flip back to come bye at the least change in direction of the sheep?

Yes. She tries to use a go bye at every opportunity and rather than balancing will sometimes even stay to that side of the sheep to try and cover them rather than use the away side, even when forced into that situation.

 

When you say she is quick to correct herself on the away side, are you saying she overruns the balance point going away and then flips back to the come bye to cover?

If I am walking her up behind the sheep, and she starts to flank on the away (and I want her to stay behind the sheep) I just have to move slightly in that direction to put her back on balance. But if she starts to go bye, I often can't stop her. Sometimes she will go away and then flip back and take off on the go bye side, and start circling, so I guess you're right there as well.

 

Depending on whether your answers confirm the assumption I am making, you may have to insist that she go away ASSUMING SHE IS READY FOR THIS KIND OF PRESSURE, and without making a big deal about it.

So assuming I understand you, ultimately I should work harder on getting her comfortable on her away side, instead of working as much on her walking up behind the sheep?

 

Ideally of course, if you have a solid lie down, you can insist that she stops in the right position. Use the long line to accomplish this if you are not in the round pen. A reliable stop will do wonders. You can now help the dog do it right.

So rather than blocking her, I should just be stopping her and making her lie down when she starts to veer off on the come bye side? I was a little worried about making her lie down too much. Which leads to my next question about walking her up behind the sheep - should I lie her down or stop her every time she starts coming in too fast (she's trying very hard to learn her "steady" command) rather than enforcing a get back?

 

BTW, I should add that some trainers are not bothered by a one-sided dog of this age and feel that if you just let them go the way they are comfortable without ever insisting that they go to their bad side, that they will eventually come to it naturally.

Interesting. What I really want her to do is not squeak past me on the go by side when I am asking her to stay behind the sheep though, because this is what she is doing the most. She gets back behind them again after she has gone all the way around them, but then she will repeat a moment later. I don't have access to a round pen; we are working in a largish field, so I'll try the long line.

 

BTW2, some trainers would suggest you put the dog away for a couple of months at least. However, I assume that you are like me and can't stand to do this. Your choice, just offering alternatives.

A.

Well, I would hate to do that - though when the weather gets really crummy I may end up doing it anyway. We only get to work sheep once a week as it is, so I don't think I'm taxing her overmuch. She's got a good bitch on her, so she takes correction really nice most of the time, she just avoids being corrected by going out so wide on the go bye side when I don't want her doing that in the first place.

 

But thank you! I will try what you've suggested and go back to working on her flanks some more, and try to improve her away.

 

RDM

[Pam Wolf]

If she is consistantly crossing on one side, don't send her too far too fast. Just because she is clean on one side doesnt mean she will be on the other.

 

Pam

[blackacre]

How do you get the 'quote', the lines and the bold? Damn.

From your answers, it does sound like the dog is uncomfortable on the away. She is also a little nervous about engaging the sheep (normal). She copes with this anxiety by circling wide on the come bye. If she has to go away, the pressure sometimes becomes too much for her and she goes in and busts them up. Her fallback is to flip back to the come bye, regardless of the pressure point, so that she can get to balance from the come bye, her good side.

[insert the usual caveats about not having seen the dog etc.]

I think what I would be inclined to do (and remember, this is one man's opinion, no more) is to use the lie down and the long line in combination to help her do the thing she is most uncomfortable doing, so as to show her she CAN do it and that it is not so bad. If she is zooming past you on the come bye, you are not in a position to help her. Stop her before she can go past you, with the lie down or the long line. Insist that she flank back on the away to where she should have been. Use your body pressure to help her stay off the right distance. If she tries to flip back, stop her again with the lie down, resorting to the long line if necessary. As with anything else, don't overdo it. Be satisfied with incremental improvements and move on to something more fun for her.

Yes, I would lie the dog down or stop her if she is coming in too fast at the lift. She is way too young to be learning how to pace. If you can get her take a few steps and then lie down again, the sheep will be moving off anyway and you will have reduced the pressure.

A.

[blackacre]

Hi Pam,

I don't think she's crossing, but rather over compensating when covering on the come bye (on the fetch) and then just continuing on all the way around to get to balance, rather than flanking back to the away. Either way, of course, good advice not to stretch her out too soon.

A.

[Denise Wall]

I have one question. Sorry if I missed this somewhere. What are you doing while she is overrunning balance and trying to circle on the comebye side? Are you just standing there or moving backwards? If you're moving backwards, how fast? What I'm getting at is from what you describe, my picture is that the dog has stopped thinking about getting to balance and bringing you the sheep. If you were to say, run backwards, this may jolt her into feeling the instinct to go to balance and bring them to you rather than circle or head them when they're facing you. Sometimes the dog is anticipating the sheep running past you and has already started to run around and get them again. Could this be it?

 

I've had several dogs do this sort of thing as young dogs, if what's happening is what I'm envisioning. Aside from one sidedness, which may play a big part in this, I think the dog may be conflicted about losing control of the sheeps' heads by going back behind them to bring them to you. When you give them a more definitive sign (like leaving without the sheep ) that they need to be concentrating on you and stay behind on balance, they will often snap out of it.

 

If, on the other hand, she is crossing in front of you and the sheep, I'd say you are not in the picture enough. In this case, you need to keep her close and do more balance work off you. Just make sure you give her somewhere to take the sheep . That last sentence is something to repeat in your head whenever you're doing balance work.

 

This is all based on my interpretation of what's going on. Sorry if I'm way off base on what's actually happening.

 

Denise

[MrSnappy]

I have one question. Sorry if I missed this somewhere. What are you doing while she is overrunning balance and trying to circle on the comebye side? Are you just standing there or moving backwards? If you're moving backwards, how fast? What I'm getting at is from what you describe, my picture is that the dog has stopped thinking about getting to balance and bringing you the sheep. If you were to say, run backwards, this may jolt her into feeling the instinct to go to balance and bring them to you rather than circle or head them when they're facing you. Sometimes the dog is anticipating the sheep running past you and has already started to run around and get them again. Could this be it?

Oh you know, this could be part of it too, and would go right back to the fact that she is coming in really fast and close when walking them up to me. I mean, I'm not sending her to do outruns or anything, I am just trying to get her to stay behind the sheep for short distances. And she comes in so close that they sheep DO tend to push past me because I just can't run backwards fast enough. (It would be nice, in fact, if the sheep would stay off my feet no matter WHAT dog I'm working, but that's just a sad aside from my poor bruised toes.)

 

The pushing-past me of sheep is why we have been working on her get back, so she stays a more comfortable distance from them. But if it's true that I'm asking for too much from her in terms of pacing, then I think probably I should go back to just working on her flanks some more, especially her away.

 

If, on the other hand, she is crossing in front of you and the sheep, I'd say you are not in the picture enough. In this case, you need to keep her close and do more balance work off you. Just make sure you give her somewhere to take the sheep . That last sentence is something to repeat in your head whenever you're doing balance work.

She doesn't cross in front, ie, between me and the sheep (not that there would be any room for her to do that with these sheep), she just flies out wide on the go bye and goes back all the way around to her balance point again, pause, walk up a few steps and then repeat. I am pretty sure that if I just stood there and did nothing, she would circle them on a go bye for hours on end.

 

There are allll sorts of things going through my head when I work her, most of them not repeatable on this board, but I do try and remember to keep everything moving and give her room to do something.

 

I am sure that most of it is my problem, rather than hers. I have never claimed to be very good at working my dogs on sheep, that's for sure! I just don't want to mess my dog up too badly as she's so keen and tries really hard. Thank you all for your advice; I will try to back off her a bit and not expect quite so much.

 

Thanks again

 

RDM

[MrSnappy]

Originally posted by blackacre:

How do you get the 'quote', the lines and the bold? Damn.

Oh, I meant to answer this for you too ... you put *quote* *qb* in front of the paragraphs you are are quoting, and */qb* */quote* at the end, except instead of asteriks use square brackets.

 

 

 

RDM

[blackacre]

Originally posted by MrSnappy:

Oh, I meant to answer this for you too ... you put *quote* *qb* in front of the paragraphs you are are quoting, and */qb* */quote* at the end, except instead of asteriks use square brackets.

Cool, thanks. Third time lucky. It seemed to prefer the comands in caps.

A.

[Denise Wall]

Oh you know, this could be part of it too, and would go right back to the fact that she is coming in really fast and close when walking them up to me. I mean, I'm not sending her to do outruns or anything, I am just trying to get her to stay behind the sheep for short distances. And she comes in so close that they sheep DO tend to push past me because I just can't run backwards fast enough. (It would be nice, in fact, if the sheep would stay off my feet no matter WHAT dog I'm working, but that's just a sad aside from my poor bruised toes.)

 

If they're this good about staying with you then just turn around and run frontways and try to stay ahead of them. The best way to teach a pushy dog pace is for them to settle into it themselves, not be forced into it. I've known some people, and I've used this technique myself with a dog whose owner had one, to get a four wheeler and go as fast as it takes for the dog to not push the sheep past you. It really doesn't take long usually for them to get ahold of themselves and settle down some with the pushing this way. The sheep will only keep going very fast for so long anyway. I like this sort of thing for young dogs because you're not doing anything to handle them out of it, they're learning it for themselves. This is always the better way if you can do it that way. I don't do a lot of stopping or handling young dogs.

 

The pushing-past me of sheep is why we have been working on her get back, so she stays a more comfortable distance from them. But if it's true that I'm asking for too much from her in terms of pacing, then I think probably I should go back to just working on her flanks some more, especially her away.

 

It's hard for exuberant young dogs to go straight for very long. It's especially hard for them to go straight and steady for very long. You need to work that in with a lot of turns to relax them. They tend to stay more relaxed when they can keep feeling like they're catching and controlling the sheep's heads by flanking. Figure out the proper ratio for that dog's maturity of turning and flanking vs bringing them straight on to you from behind.

 

If you turn off square yourself (90 degrees) when you change direction, you'll encourage her to give more ground in the beginning of the flank which will help with the pushing. A lot of this, alternating going one direction, then the other, should help get things settled down. If she starts going too wide one way, back straight up or run forward faster to suck her back in behind them.

 

I would be very careful about pushing a dog this young off the sheep too much though. There are a lot of too wide dogs out there and pushing them off too young is part of the reason for it.

 

JMHO

Denise

[Denise Wall]

I wrote:

 

"If she starts going too wide one way, back straight up or run forward faster to suck her back in behind them."

 

Just to be more clear, I did mean run forward faster with the sheep behind you, not run forward faster if you are facing the sheep.

 

Denise

[Margaret M Wheeler]

Wow, you have gotten a lot of great input here! It makes great reading. Is this that nice little black and white pup you rescued awhile back?

 

Also, how often do you work her? I'm really trying to get a feeling for the right amount of practice time.

[Northof49]

It's hard for exuberant young dogs to go straight for very long. It's especially hard for them to go straight and steady for very long. You need to work that in with a lot of turns to relax them. They tend to stay more relaxed when they can keep feeling like they're catching and controlling the sheep's heads by flanking.

 

If you turn off square yourself (90 degrees) when you change direction, you'll encourage her to give more ground in the beginning of the flank which will help with the pushing. A lot of this, alternating going one direction, then the other, should help get things settled down. If she starts going too wide one way, back straight up or run forward faster to suck her back in behind them.

________________________________________________

RDM - this is what I have been doing with Cori and it has worked very well. After just a couple of workouts doing this, she has improved about 95% and very rarely wants to run out on the one side. It doesn't take them long to figure it out, when you let them basically figure it out on their own.

[blackacre]

Denise says: "Sometimes the dog is anticipating the sheep running past you and has already started to run around and get them again. Could this be it?"

 

I suspect that there is more to it than the dog anticipating that the sheep will push past the handler, inasmuch as she always does it on the come bye and never on the away. Now, it might just be that RDM is always positioning herself in such a way that the sheep blow past her on her right, but I doubt it.

 

I like the idea of the four wheeler though, as long as the sheep will keep running towards the (now mounted) handler and the dog doesn't just decide to cut in between the handler and the sheep and have a free for all. Pretty exciting stuff, after all.

 

A.

[blackacre]

Addendum: I would also speculate that RDM is having trouble doing the exercise you describe ie changing direction 90 degrees so as to get the dog to flank first one way and then the other way to cover, since the dog is probably reluctant to go the shortest, more natural way on her bad side and instead runs around the handler come bye to get to balance.

A.

[Northof49]

I like the idea of the four wheeler though, as long as the sheep will keep running towards the (now mounted) handler

 

________________________________________________

Yeah, but you know, it takes all the fun out of all that huffing and puffing, running your butt off trying to keep in front of the sheep, trippng over a miniscule pebble and falling flat on your face (preferably in a mud puddle or worse) and getting literally run over by the sheep, and all that fun stuff that you should have to experience and hopefully survive :eek:

[blackacre]

You fail to mention the best part, which is doing it going backwards. I think Denise is determined to spoil the novice handler's fun by suggesting she can just TURN AROUND and run forwards. Heresy.

A.

[Northof49]

You fail to mention the best part, which is doing it going backwards

______________________________________________

Oh yes, preferably to something from Swan Lake

[Northof49]

OR, if you are really really good at the running backwards thing, doing it to something from Lord of the Dance, shouldn't be out of the realm of possibilities.

 

Maybe we could start a new competition at the trials - choreographed sheep herding, ya - that's it! Okay everyone - start choosing your music

[MrSnappy]

While I greatly appreciate all the advice, I am getting very discouraged because you all keep mentioning "running." I try not to run anywhere! Gawd, if I knew running was involved I would have got into flyball instead.

 

Margaret - yes, this is my little bitch I rescued from a shelter. She's only worked once a week because that's all the access to stock that I have, though I have found "sheep rentals" closer where I could go more frequently, but I'm not keen to work her without supervision quite yet (this place only offers sheep, not lessons). I tend to put her out there for 10-15 minutes at a time, 2-3 times each time I go out. I don't want to blow a fuse her in her nasty little brain.

 

Thanks again everyone, I've really learned a ton here.

 

Edited to add: Northof49 - I have already been knocked down and run over by sheep and I try really hard to not let that happen again. My partner, who has never seen me and the dogs work sheep, thought it was hysterical when I told him. One day, I will send him out to work them instead, and then we will all know what "hysterical" really is.

 

RDM

[Northof49]

One day, I will send him out to work them instead, and then we will all know what "hysterical" really is.

_______________________________________________

 

That reminds me of the story of my friend's husband. We begged him to come out and learn how to move with the sheep with Trapper, so that if we were away and the sheep got out he would be able to deal with it. At that time, the sheep were in a pasture and pen set up across the road from her house.

 

Needless to say, he refused. One weekend when we were gone, he got a call from the neighbour about 1/4 mile away, saying our sheep were over at their place. Well, he went over with Trapper, and of course Trapper, knowing immediately that he was dealing with a stupid human that didn't have a clue as to what was going on, took total control - aimed the sheep at her husband, literally ran him over with the sheep and had them back down the road, through the break in the fence and backed into the corner of the pen before her husband even knew what hit him.

[Denise Wall]

For all of you starting out needing solace for being humbled by the dogs and sheep, I offer a repost of something I wrote on these boards a couple of years ago. I hope it makes you feel better :

 

When Kate was a pup, she would climb over five foot fences to get in with the sheep. Once, when she was about five months old, I was all dressed up, getting ready to go out to eat and made the mistake of thinking I could get her the short distance from the barn to the house without a lead. She took off for the pasture fence, went over it, and ran out 200 yards to the 50 odd sheep and brought them straight to me (or I should say, they ran straight to me for help), until they reached a dividing fence where she held them against it and began fighting with the ram. I ran out there as fast as I could in my cute little going-out-to-eat shoes. I'm sure anyone who has tried to catch a keen pup this age that stays on the other side of the sheep can understand the frustration of it. I got run into, run over, and feet crunched many times. I tried everything. I put them in a corner but she still went behind them and I couldn't block her. I tried letting them all through a gate into a paddock and shutting the gate in her face, a trick that had worked before, but not this night. I tried taking them to a pen and on the way is where they bombed into me the worst; I rode on the backs of a pack of them for what seemed like a long while, flat on my back, facing the sky, before they split, I dropped to the ground, and then the rest of them stampeded over me. When she brought them back again, I just lay there on the ground crying and begging her to come. This was about 30 minutes into this whole ordeal, it was dark now. I was very late for my dinner plans. You can imagine what I looked like by this point. But still she had no mercy. I finally did catch her about 15 minutes later by letting her pack them as tight as she could in a corner and leaping on her as she tried to squeeze behind them against the fence again. I was way past worrying about such things as flinging myself, in dress clothes, to the ground between a bunch of sheep by that time.

**********************

 

Needless to say, I never made it out that night. However, I'm happy to report that Kate is finally trying to make a good dog of herself.

 

Denise

[Bill Fosher]

RDM --

 

You've gotten a lot of good advice here, but I would emphasize that it's all based on the presumption that the pup is ready to take training pressure. Some silliness like this is to be expected, tolerated, and even encouraged in a young dog until it can take the pressure needed to disobey its instincts and trust in your judgment.

 

How is the dog's down? Could you teach it to lie still and watch sheep walk away from it, so it learns that the world doesn't end, and then let it gather them up however it feels most comfortable?

 

I'd also try to set up situations where the only way to not lose the sheep is to take a proper left-hand flank.

 

You can also try driving a little bit with her. Again, these are all things to help her become more comfortable and more confident, and to learn that the world isn't going to end if the sheep are moving away from her.

[MrSnappy]

Originally posted by Bill Fosher:

RDM --

 

You've gotten a lot of good advice here, but I would emphasize that it's all based on the presumption that the pup is ready to take training pressure. Some silliness like this is to be expected, tolerated, and even encouraged in a young dog until it can take the pressure needed to disobey its instincts and trust in your judgment.

Honestly, if I were her I wouldn't trust in my judgement too much! LOL. But honestly, she does take training pressure fairly well. However, I occasionally reluctant to do some of the things I have been advised. I've been told to run through the sheep straight at her when she comes into close when behind them, so she turns back and goes farther away and I think that's maybe a bit much for her at this point. In fact, I think it might contribute to her new thing of going wide on her go bye to avoid me.

 

How is the dog's down? Could you teach it to lie still and watch sheep walk away from it, so it learns that the world doesn't end, and then let it gather them up however it feels most comfortable?

Her down is very good now. I can lie her down behind them about 95% of the time.

 

She was really REALLY speedy when we first began, (which is why I got run over), and sometimes it is hard for me to stay ahead of her, even when we are flanking and doing turns. I have to lie her down sometimes to get back into position. And sometimes when I let her gather she does it so fast that I get trampled a bit.

 

You can also try driving a little bit with her. Again, these are all things to help her become more comfortable and more confident, and to learn that the world isn't going to end if the sheep are moving away from her.

There's another point of interest for me, because I was told I shouldn't drive with her until she can stay behind the sheep.

 

It's all really fascinating and you've all been so helpful, I've got lots to work on. I know that sometimes I expect too much, so all this advice is really helpful for me.

 

Thanks

 

RDM