my collie doesn't seem to trust my friends

[Katilea]

These friends have been visiting since he was a puppy so he knows them, however twice now there has been 'odd incidents' that only involved this specific friend.

 

Th first one the other year, he had gone to greet her and they'd gone out in the garden when I went out he was laid at top of hill panting heavily and had a patch of fur missing under his right eye. it wasn't there before she arrived. Despite her seeing me looking round garden to try and work out what he'd caught it on she never said a word. He did go to her for fuss.

 

She came a few times in between with partner and one or two of their kids (teens) at xmas and he was fine with them all.

 

Last Sunday they visited the first time we'd seen them since my older dog passed away, he went in to say hello, but hen he snapped at friends partner twice when he tried to stroke him and growled at my friend when she was asking him what was wrong.

 

I asked if they'd pushed him away when he went in to say hello and she said no, and suggested it was cos he's not used to males (meaning him snapping at her partner ..I'm female and live on my own), however he does see and meet other men when we're out walking and today was fine when we were on an awkward blind bend with 2 blokes coming other way with a very yappy terrier. One bloke had picked up their dog the other stroked JJ under his chin as he passed, he just wagged his tail, never growled or snapped.

I can think of other males he likes and has no problem with and has even gone to give them a cuddle. My friend makes out that she can't trust JJ but he's fine with everyone else except them since he's grown up...so I'm somewhat mystified!

 

He is incredibly intuitive and I trust him as I always remember when we were out at lake and there's a guy who always fussed him but this particular day JJ was really pressing his body into him hugging him. I later found out from another walker that the man's wife had died and it was her funeral that day, JJ obviously sensed his deep sadness.

Has anyone else's collie ever taken a dislike to someone you were already friends with (or a family member)? Did you ever find out if there was a reason?

 

Thanks

[Sue R]

If something unpleasant happened during that trip to the garden in the first visit you describe, whether or not it had anything really to do with your friend interacting in some way with your (younger at the time) dog, JJ might still remember and associate that unpleasant experience with her and, by association, with her family.

 

However, since this only just happened after a period of time where there was no problem, I'm wondering if there isn't something else going on, with JJ not feeling safe/comfortable or whatever during this last visit. If he was "off" for some reason and had a remembrance of that earlier injury, maybe he reacted negatively to your friend and her boyfriend?

 

I'd keep an eye on him and see if his behavior in other situations or with other people shows signs of changing, just in case there might be something going amiss (like a health or pain issue you might not be aware of yet).

 

Best wishes!

[Katilea]

If something unpleasant happened during that trip to the garden in the first visit you describe, whether or not it had anything really to do with your friend interacting in some way with your (younger at the time) dog, JJ might still remember and associate that unpleasant experience with her and, by association, with her family.

 

However, since this only just happened after a period of time where there was no problem, I'm wondering if there isn't something else going on, with JJ not feeling safe/comfortable or whatever during this last visit. If he was "off" for some reason and had a remembrance of that earlier injury, maybe he reacted negatively to your friend and her boyfriend?

 

I'd keep an eye on him and see if his behavior in other situations or with other people shows signs of changing, just in case there might be something going amiss (like a health or pain issue you might not be aware of yet).

 

Best wishes!

 

Thanks for answering. The only other thing I can think of is I haven't had men in the house since my older girl passed. My brother was here and the guy who came to take her body for cremation (the vet and vet nurse were female) he came in for a fuss from the vets, briefly sniffed my other dogs nose after she had been PTS then had to go in bedroom behind dog gate while the front door was opened so the vets could leave and the cremation guy could take her body. ..it's just been me and him since so unless he associates men particuarly being in the house and then his companion being taken away, I don't know.

 

Had him from 8 weeks old so my eldest was top dog was when arrived and has been nearly 4yrs. I wondered if he didn't feel as confident greeting people? or not sure of his role/position now? but as I said he's been fine outside greeting other people both male and female.

 

He's not had any injuries, not limping or showing any signs of being in pain. I've had Clinical Depression since the passing of my older dog so unless he's picking up on that and feels its now his job to protect me? ..Again though had no problems outside chatting to other people whilst out and he's sat there until we've finished chatting and moved on.

 

Does seem odd its only them he's reacted like this with, unless its a coincidence cos they're the first thats visited and stayed a while in the house since my old girl passed.

[Sue R]

Maybe there are several factors at work here. Hopefully, he will be able to improve with time. A lack of confidence could be part of it. Dogs can be very dependent on their "leaders" whether they are another dog or a human.

 

As for pain or other discomfort, you don't always see what might be going on in the body. Dogs (and other animals) are expert at hiding discomfort and pain because they are signs of weakness, and showing weakness in the natural world is often dangerous. And signs that do show can be very subtle to us humans but obvious to other animals. It's just something to keep in mind but since so much else has happened in your household, I'd be likely to attribute this to those events and life changes, at least for long enough to observe if his behaviors improve or get worse.

 

Again, best wishes!

[GentleLake]

I agree with what Sue said and can offer a few other things to consider.

 

Is it possible that your friend or her partner were approaching JJ in postures that he might have perceived as threatening? Looming over him, perhaps, when they greeted him (very different from the guy who scratched him under the chin), looking intently into his eyes, which could be likened to a hard stare from another dog (i.e. challenging) when they approached? Things like this that humans find perfectly normal but translate behaviorally quite differently for dogs may have contributed to his reaction.

 

It also sounds like there have been several other changes in his life that may be coming into play here. You may be onto something in that he may have looked to your older dog to make the calls and, as you've considered, maybe he just doesn't have the same level of confidence he did with her there. The fact that this was in your home rather than out and about and that you're feeling vulnerable right now could contribute to both his territoriality and protectiveness or even his own sense or personal danger.

 

Are these friends you might be able to solicit to help with him? I'd be inclined to arrange meeting with them on neutral ground away from home to see if he reacts the same way towards them. Perhaps instruct them about non-threatening greetings and maybe to come armed with some yummy treats that they can toss JJ's way while standing still and without looking directly at him to try to change his emotional response to him? You and they can stand, or maybe better sit (less looming) on a park bench talking and not paying any attention to JJ other than for you or them to toss treats at gradually decreasing distances if and when he becomes more relaxed around them. If this goes well, even if it takes a few repetitions, you could all go back to your house together, which would probably feel very different to JJ than them coming into your house when the two of you are already there.

 

I wouldn't worry to much about trying to figure out if something happened in the garden that long ago time (unless perhaps you're not trusting your friend?), but focus instead on identifying whether there might be any postures or behaviors from your friends that JJ might find intimidating and that they can alter, and changing his emotional response to them through counter-conditioning.

 

Best wishes.

[D'Elle]

Good insights from you about what might be going on with your dog; I can tell you think about it a lot and that is good. But you may never figure it out completely. You have gotten good advice, above. Other than seconding that perhaps you are wondering if you should trust that friend, and maybe your dog picks up on that.... I have nothing to add except to say good luck with this and please keep us informed.

[Katilea]

Thanks. What struck me as odd the first time when he had patch of fur missing from under his eye is that she never said anything, if he caught it when he landed too close to a fence or something she never said despite seeing me look round garden to work out what he had done it on. If she had had caught him with her nail if he'd jumped up and she'd pushed him away she never said she had caught him by accident. It just made no sense at the time there was no explanation and she'd been the only person in the garden with him so had to have either seen or done something (the garden's not that big he'd be completely out of sight).

 

What made me consider this a possibility is years back when she'd been dog sitting my previous dog, her and her daughter had been messing about with my computer and joystick (it has special accessibility settings which they didn't know) Instead of admitting this when I returned they said nothing even when I had got laptop out to show them something they sat there looking at each other knowing I was going to try and use my joystick to find it wouldn't work properly. I think If i hadn't wanted to show them something they would have gone home and said nothing... although this has nothing to do with JJ (as he wasn't born at that time!) I was aware when this incident happened with JJ that things had happened before and she'd said nothing.

 

The shape of missing fur under his eye could have been from a nail catching and lifting the patch right off as she has longer nails than I have, this is mainly why I'm wondering if it's just them that he doesn't trust and he's picking up something about their body language or intentions that I missed? If it was so innocent why did she never say, he'd jumped up a little too strong on her and she'd accidently caught him?

 

Again we've been out today and seen several people and other dogs and had no problems. It's difficult as I'm mostly housebound (other than getting round village on mobility scooter) and won't see anyone else, she mentioned coming back in summer on her own when we can go in garden but I'm reluctant to leave him unattended with her (eg if I needed to go back into loo or get drinks etc) so I'd probably leave him in a seperate room when they visit in future as its usually only for a couple of hours.

 

They were both sat on the sofa when he had gone into say hello last sunday and he suddenly started snapping and growling. I'm in a wheelchair so I'm always sat other than transferring between seats. I guess as she wasn't completely honest in the past on a few occasions I'm not convinced that my friend or her partner hadn't already pushed him away when he first went in causing him to snap the second time he put his hand out towards him.

 

Only other thing I can think of is I thought he was having sight problems a few years back, got him tested and it came back negative. He's meant to be CEA and PRA clear just because his parents were, (though not sure every puppy in every litter was actually tested before going to their new homes?) nothing obvious like cataracts or glaucoma, and he's not nervous outside with complete strangers approaching him which you think he would be if he couldn't see them coming at all, not running into anything or anything like that (although he's lived here since 8 weeks old so probably has everything mapped out if he did have sight issues that hadn't been detected by the vet).

 

I don't think he's totally blind or anything but it's as if his near vision isn't as good as his distance vision and maybe if they're moving their hand over him (if he's sat) to stroke on top of his head and he's moving his head further back he's not sure what they're going to do with their hand? Maybe it appears a blur to him kind of us looking through a frosted bathroom window and only seeing a shape and colours passing but no detail? (of the person passing the window). Though again he has no issues with me doing it.

 

He used to growl when I was putting his harness on and often the hallway was dark (no light if the doors into rooms are shut) but if I said 'harness on' or 'stick your head in harness' he'd walk forwards and put it on no problem. My old dog was blind in her later years (cataracts) and I used to describe everything to her so she knew what was coming and of course since she died I stopped (not realising JJ was also possibly having sight issues). He's not a dog that would enjoy tests so I don't want to put him through them for them to come back negative (at all or at this stage..I know of some dogs whose PRA hasn't shown up/been diagnosed until they were over 6 years old) but he did come from a farm with sheep and he did used to be a bit of a poo eater and I've heard of dogs getting parasites from that which caused them sight problems. (He did have giardia as a pup and took us a while to find him a food he was ok with that helped him gain weight) It did leave him with a sensitive tummy and he's on completely grain mainly free fish based diet, though no one ever mentioned back at the time that these parasites can also cause sight problems, but that's the only other thing I can think of as a possibility? ..other than the death of his companion affecting him more than I realised? ..or him just being a sensitive soul who prefers some people more than others!

 

Although he used to guide my old girl back to the back door at night when she'd gone out for a wee which made me think he can't be having sight issues, or if he has he's always had them so doesn't know any different?

[WickAndArtoo]

It sounds like JJ doesn't trust them. I wouldn't worry about why, it could be a million things... However given that you are questioning their trustworthiness also I would definitely say that the people aren't fully trustworthy and also JJ probably can sense that you feel that way and it's playing into it. If it were me I would not over analyze it and just keep him in a separate room if they are around, he is being put in a stressful situation otherwise so that way he won't have to deal with them trying to convince him to like them.

 

Our border collie is very particular about who he lets pet him, some individuals he lets pet him right off the bat and others he will move his body and head away to avoid it (always wags his tail and goes up to them so people think he wants it). Our boy can see fine, he just doesn't want to be pet by most strangers! Once he knows the person and trusts them that changes but I never make him be pet if he doesn't want it, I just tell them he is shy (which he is)... If they keep trying I just step in between them so Artoo doesn't get too scared. In my opinion dogs are goofy about all sorts of stuff, weird things and sometimes legitimate things will make them not like someone... I figure I will never understand why most of the time but it's my job to make sure my dogs feel safe regardless.

 

Sometimes they have great instincts! Like our Aussie mix dislikes very erratic and inebriated people ... He is sensitive to things like stress and anger and can sense it even if the person doesn't talk or anything. I trust his opinion if he can't seem to comfortable around a person it's usually for a reason.

[Katilea]

It sounds like JJ doesn't trust them. I wouldn't worry about why, it could be a million things... However given that you are questioning their trustworthiness also I would definitely say that the people aren't fully trustworthy and also JJ probably can sense that you feel that way and it's playing into it. If it were me I would not over analyze it and just keep him in a separate room if they are around, he is being put in a stressful situation otherwise so that way he won't have to deal with them trying to convince him to like them.

 

Our border collie is very particular about who he lets pet him, some individuals he lets pet him right off the bat and others he will move his body and head away to avoid it (always wags his tail and goes up to them so people think he wants it). Our boy can see fine, he just doesn't want to be pet by most strangers! Once he knows the person and trusts them that changes but I never make him be pet if he doesn't want it, I just tell them he is shy (which he is)... If they keep trying I just step in between them so Artoo doesn't get too scared. In my opinion dogs are goofy about all sorts of stuff, weird things and sometimes legitimate things will make them not like someone... I figure I will never understand why most of the time but it's my job to make sure my dogs feel safe regardless.

 

Sometimes they have great instincts! Like our Aussie mix dislikes very erratic and inebriated people ... He is sensitive to things like stress and anger and can sense it even if the person doesn't talk or anything. I trust his opinion if he can't seem to comfortable around a person it's usually for a reason.

 

I've learned he's alot more sensitive to my emotions, even the tiniest fluctuation. My old girl was pretty bombproof and loved greeting everyone, JJ is more 'mummy's boy' I think and much more sensitive.

 

I was going to see if he was better with them in garden if they played football with him or something if it was nice weather when they next came and tell them not to pet him, just throw his ball or something, but maybe best just leaving him in his crate.

 

Thanks to everyone who replied.

[D'Elle]

If I knew someone who had behaved in the way you describe, that person would no longer be my friend, and I would not leave my dog with that person, ever. That person doesn't sound honest, forthcoming, or trustworthy, all of which are required to be my friend and most especially in order for me to trust with my dog.

Just my opinion.