Jump to content


Photo

the other side (conformation)?


90 replies to this topic

#41 Katelynn & Gang

Katelynn & Gang

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 788 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Lake Orion, Michigan

Posted 29 January 2008 - 11:00 AM

There was a Border collie removed from the AKC stud books because it was bearded which was noticed by a rep at a event. There was a related dog at the same event which wasn't bearded with the same breeding that was never questioned.

Katelynn
Posted Image

#42 Marilyn T

Marilyn T

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 200 posts
  • Location:Michigan

Posted 29 January 2008 - 01:05 PM

"I think conformation would be like buying a toaster or something and saying "No,it cant make toast, but doesnt it look nice sitting on the counter?" If it can't make toast (aka work) than what's the point of having it? ( aka breeding to it)"

Yes of course! So if it can't work, it's good for nothing else! Not companionship, not performance events, and certainly not conformation! Well, since it can't work why don't we just take it out back and shoot it! Put the poor thing out of its misery!


I think this iillustrates just the point everyone is trying to make to the world in general. The standard for the border collie, every bordercollie, should be its working ability. The dog was developed for work. It was bred for work, and it should still be bred for work in order to keep the characteristics everyone provesses to adore about border collies. If companionship, performance events dreamed up by bored dog owners, or conformation is the goal, get another breed. Don't breed our working dogs for those traits. Breed only for working ablility. Judging a dog for a title in the lettered associations leads to false standards for this wonderful breed, and showing in them, and breeding sport litters is just taking the dog further away from its origins. Look at the show lab. It is short, squat, waddles, and is nothing like the retriever that it used to be. It would wear out after half an hour of hunting. The same is true of the 'border collies' showing up in the conformation ring. With the heavy bone, and thick dense fur, and short legs, they would fall down in exhaustion after a thirty minute double lift, even if they could do the first 600 yard outrun. I'm not even talking about the delicate trait known as instinct. I have done Beardie instinct testing, and most people can't tell the difference between chasing and herding instinct. I am sure the conformation border collie breeders are pretty much the same.

Now, before eveyone gets riled up, I don't care if border collies end up in sport homes, or as companions, just don't breed for it. Breed for the working dog.

#43 Flamincomet

Flamincomet

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 378 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Washington

Posted 29 January 2008 - 02:21 PM

I feel that they play these "show" games mainly because they enjoy them, and the "goal" (a well-functioning BC?) is mostly an excuse. Otherwise, why not take the straightforward route and just breed BCs that have proven to be good runners? It would be so much easier than breeding for straight-but-not-too-straight legs. Shame on me if I'm wrong, but that's the way I feel about it.


.........Yes, we do this because we enjoy it, otherwise I don't think many people would be doing it! And I can't comment on the "goal" you mentioned, because there are a lot of different people with a lot of different goals. I have not a shred of doubt that there are conformation people that don't give a rip about working ability and just want to have pretty dogs. I am NOT one of those people. I love both conformation AND working BCs, and yes, I do believe they are both still BCs for now, though different strains. This is my personal opinion, but I would not be one bit hurt if the AKC changed the border collies name to something different, mind you, not for a little while, because they ARE still the same breed, but, eventually they won't be, and I know this. Does this stop me from competing and showing in conformation or registering with the AKC? NO, because it is something I and my dog enjoy doing, and we will continue to do it for that reason. One day I hope to have enough knowledge to be able to have a "real" working border collie, and go out there and do with it what it WAS bred to do, but right now that is not *my* goal.

But they don't breed for them as far as I know. As for the use of glue on working dog ears, I've never heard of that and I hope it isn't true! If the culture on these boards is anything to go by (and it should be), a working BC breeder playing with glue should catch it so bad that I'd (almost!) feel sorry for them!


I can give you the link to their website if you would like. They OFA hips, test eyes, breed for working ability, and I couldn't find anywhere on their site that said they register with the AKC. According to this website they are very good breeders. But they also have a whole page on different ways to glue up ears for the prick look, as far as I know they don't actually BREED for that look though. Same as many conformation breeders :rolleyes:

Juliepoudrier, I do understand about what you are saying, and as I said before, I don't doubt that there are people that don't care about the ACTUAL standard, but I DO. And I can probably safely say now that I won't be very successful in the border collie show ring, but I don't really care. I do find it sad though that it is impossible for people like me, who WANT to keep the herding instinct alive in AKC border collies, to do both herding on a serious level and conformation showing. And I think that is the fault of BOTH the AKC and the ABCA. If I were able to, I would get a BC from working lines and show it in conformation, simply for enjoyment... but this is defidently not possible. Very sad.

"(Definition: I think we define ear set differently. To me prick is erect, tipped is semi-erect--like Lassie--and drop is an ear that hangs like a lab's or hound's.)"

And that is exactly how I define ear set also.

"The ABCA does not give out nor can it take away herding titles; it can and does remove dogs from it's registry (registration not title). The only titles available within our herding system are from the USBCHA National Finals and to my knowledge no USBCHA National champion has had its title revoked."

My mistake, how the AKC works (Giving titles and such) is a lot different then how the ABCA and USBCHA works. What happened was that the ABCA de-registered this dog, simply because it had won a conformation title. This dog in question was out of very respectable working lines.

"I believe that Autumn may also be mistaken about the rep at a trial revoking the registration of a dog because it looked "funny."

I was not the one who made that comment, I simply quoted it in my first post. I don't know any details about this, simply that it is similar to the ABCA de-registering dogs because they win conformation titles.

Autumn

#44 juliepoudrier

juliepoudrier

    Poseur extraordinaire and Borg Queen!

  • Registered Users
  • 16,092 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Virginia

Posted 29 January 2008 - 03:05 PM

Juliepoudrier, I do understand about what you are saying, and as I said before, I don't doubt that there are people that don't care about the ACTUAL standard, but I DO. And I can probably safely say now that I won't be very successful in the border collie show ring, but I don't really care.


And that is the truly sad part. The fashion show, dictated by the personal preferences of judges, precludes numerous dogs that do meet the standard but that simply don't match exactly what's being put up by the judges. As we all know, dogs that don't match the latest trend in the breed ring don't stand a chance, so the people who want to win (because after all winning = prestige and translates into puppy sales) conform to what the judges are putting up. Next thing you know, you get those big boned extremely hairy dogs with bulging foreheads (and so on) that all look alike (for the most part) and that are currently winning in the show ring. And all the while, the people breeding, judging, and showing them will claim that they are breeding for a structure that somehow implies the dog could work, if only given the chance. And we all know how true (not!) that is.

I do find it sad though that it is impossible for people like me, who WANT to keep the herding instinct alive in AKC border collies, to do both herding on a serious level and conformation showing. And I think that is the fault of BOTH the AKC and the ABCA. If I were able to, I would get a BC from working lines and show it in conformation, simply for enjoyment... but this is defidently not possible. Very sad.


Actually, it probably is possible. All you'd have to do is find an ABCA (or ISDS) registered working-bred dog with good potential on the trial field and that looked a lot like what was being placed in the show ring. While such dogs might not be as heavy of bone, they could certainly have a lot of coat, tipped ears, and perfect Irish markings. Where you'd be in trouble is if you put a conformation champion on that dog, which would cause the dog to be deregistered from ABCA. But (and it's a big BUT), even if the dog is deregistered, it's still eligible to compete in USBCHA open trials, and even in the finals (it would simply not be eligible for the prize money offered up by the ABCA). So in theory you could take a conformation champion and win the National Finals with it and no one could stop you from doing so. So you could, in fact, compete in the show ring and compete seriously on the trial field. The only thing you couldn't do is register your conformation champion or its progeny with the ABCA or win prize money put up by ABCA. So I disagree that ABCA is at fault. The registry disagrees with the breeding of border collies for a show ring standard and has decided to "put its money where it's mouth is," but the only practical outcome of that notice of deregistration is that you can't register the pups of your conformation champion with the ABCA. If the dog were truly a good one (from a stockworking standpoint), inability to register pups probably wouldn't be a problem. In theory. I personally don't think you could do the reverse, however (that is, start with a conformation-bred dog, get the conformation champion, and then manage to win the National Finals because as you have noted in the quest for that conformationally "perfect" dog, most show breeders have let working genetics fall by the wayside, deliberately or not).

J.

I know nothing with any certainty, but the sight of stars makes me dream.

~Vincent van Gogh

mydogs_small2.jpg
Julie Poudrier
New Kent, VA

Beloved, and living in memory:
Willow (6/1997-5/2014, run free, my heart), Boy (3/1995-10/2010, RIP), Jill (8/1996-5/2012, RIP), Farleigh (12/1998-7/2014, RIP), Kat (4/2000-6/2015, I miss you, my sweet, funny little clown), and Twist (11/2001-11/2016, you were my once-in-a-lifetime dog and forever my BEST girl)

The current pack:
Lark, Phoebe, Pipit, Birdie, Kiskadee (Kiss), Rue, Corbie, and Kite!

Willow's Rest, Tunis, Tunis mules, Leicester longwool, Teeswater, Border Leicester, and Gulf Coast Native sheep


Visit me on Facebook at Poudrier and Crowder, Set Out Specialists (P&C, SOS)

#45 sandra s.

sandra s.

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 3,559 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Lenggries, Germany
  • Interests:rock music (mostly Oasis and all their heroes and influences), nature (esp. geology), rockhounding, hiking, daydreaming, taking photos (still learning!), any activity that Kessie enjoys (with some exceptions, like rolling in you-know-what!).

Posted 29 January 2008 - 04:28 PM

I've no problem with people enjoying showing, although it doesn't tempt me personally. It's not all that different from playing agility or probably even hobby herding like we did for a while - a game, a challenge, a pastime, something to do together with your dog. But it is still a game, and not a good reason to breed even more dogs than there already are, IMO. The same game could be played with mixed-breed rescue dogs. It's not so much the activity of showing I can't get my head around, but taking those ear sets etc seriously enough to breed for them.

As for the goal, I'm no expert, but I have gotten the impression that conformation breeders justify their breeding to a standard mostly with "healthiness" arguments. If that is wrong, what other arguments do they use? That's what I was asking about in the first place...I just can't think of any at all.

I can give you the link to their website if you would like. They OFA hips, test eyes, breed for working ability, and I couldn't find anywhere on their site that said they register with the AKC. According to this website they are very good breeders.


They should be, according to their own website :rolleyes: (or do you mean this website, as in BC boards?). A lot of people seem to claim to be "working breeders", don't they? I'm just hoping your example is one of those. Of course I could be wrong, anything's possible with humans! Lots of people don't seem to mind docking tails either. I think it's unforgivable unless there's a REALLY good practical reason. Gluing ears would not be half as bad...only just as silly in my opinion.

#46 Rebecca, Irena Farm

Rebecca, Irena Farm

    Together, We Can Move This Mountain

  • Registered Users
  • 6,636 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Pilot Mountain, North Carolina, USA
  • Interests:Sheep (dairy), assistance dog (SD/full access and Emotional Service Animals), general training, stockdog trialing, dock diving, lure coursing, flyball

Posted 29 January 2008 - 06:06 PM

flamingcomet, I don't suppose your "Working breeder" was this one? http://www.lockeyebc.../info.html#ears

Or this one? http://www.majesticb.../PuppyEars.html
Becca Shouse - Irena Farm, Semora, NC
Cord, Ted, Gus, Sam - plus Maggie, Zhi, Lynn, Jetta, Lu, Min, and Tully

Posted Image
http://irenafarm.blogspot.com/

#47 juliepoudrier

juliepoudrier

    Poseur extraordinaire and Borg Queen!

  • Registered Users
  • 16,092 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Virginia

Posted 29 January 2008 - 06:52 PM

It's pretty sad when ear set is more important than the dog's actual ability to do anything. Autumn, if either of those sites are the one to which you refer, I think it's safe to say that they working competency strived for is at the lowest end of the scale. I know of no trialists competing in the upper levels of USBCHA trials who would even *consider* taking the steps to "adjust" the ears as outlined by the two websites posted by Becca.

J.

I know nothing with any certainty, but the sight of stars makes me dream.

~Vincent van Gogh

mydogs_small2.jpg
Julie Poudrier
New Kent, VA

Beloved, and living in memory:
Willow (6/1997-5/2014, run free, my heart), Boy (3/1995-10/2010, RIP), Jill (8/1996-5/2012, RIP), Farleigh (12/1998-7/2014, RIP), Kat (4/2000-6/2015, I miss you, my sweet, funny little clown), and Twist (11/2001-11/2016, you were my once-in-a-lifetime dog and forever my BEST girl)

The current pack:
Lark, Phoebe, Pipit, Birdie, Kiskadee (Kiss), Rue, Corbie, and Kite!

Willow's Rest, Tunis, Tunis mules, Leicester longwool, Teeswater, Border Leicester, and Gulf Coast Native sheep


Visit me on Facebook at Poudrier and Crowder, Set Out Specialists (P&C, SOS)

#48 sheepandakom

sheepandakom

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 200 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Varina, VA
  • Interests:Sheepherding, Border Collie Rescue, Showing Border Leicester Sheep, Law School.

Posted 29 January 2008 - 10:18 PM

I know a woman who taped her BC puppy's ears for months. I guess she wanted that perfect Border Collie tip. I saw the dog this past weekend and am thinking he's around 2yrs old now. His ears do tip, but they tip backwards. I have never seen anything like it! Imagine taking the top portion of the ear and flipping it back towards the skull. It looks awful! I don't know for sure, but my guess is the dog would have had prick ears and that by trying to force them forward, she caused his body to counteract the taping.

Emily

#49 Wendy V

Wendy V

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 503 posts

Posted 29 January 2008 - 10:25 PM

I know of no trialists competing in the upper levels of USBCHA trials who would even *consider* taking the steps to "adjust" the ears as outlined by the two websites posted by Becca.


Actually, I know of one person who competes quite succesfully at USBCHA open events, who regularly tapes ears of puppies. I find it silly, but it is their preference, and it causes no harm, so who I am to judge?

#50 juliepoudrier

juliepoudrier

    Poseur extraordinaire and Borg Queen!

  • Registered Users
  • 16,092 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Virginia

Posted 29 January 2008 - 10:46 PM

Actually, I know of one person who competes quite succesfully at USBCHA open events, who regularly tapes ears of puppies. I find it silly, but it is their preference, and it causes no harm, so who I am to judge?

Well, obviously I don't know the practices of everyone, but I think it's safe to say that most folks wouldn't bother. Gee I guess if I had only taped Phoebe's ears she'd have that pricked look I prefer. Frankly I can think of better things to do with my time and energy than tape my dog's ears....

His ears do tip, but they tip backwards. I have never seen anything like it!

Emily,
Lark's ears actually went through a stage, at three or four months, when the tips turned backward like you describe. It truly was odd looking.

I posted these not long ago in a thread on ears. Lark is about four months old in these pictures:
Posted Image

Posted Image

J.

I know nothing with any certainty, but the sight of stars makes me dream.

~Vincent van Gogh

mydogs_small2.jpg
Julie Poudrier
New Kent, VA

Beloved, and living in memory:
Willow (6/1997-5/2014, run free, my heart), Boy (3/1995-10/2010, RIP), Jill (8/1996-5/2012, RIP), Farleigh (12/1998-7/2014, RIP), Kat (4/2000-6/2015, I miss you, my sweet, funny little clown), and Twist (11/2001-11/2016, you were my once-in-a-lifetime dog and forever my BEST girl)

The current pack:
Lark, Phoebe, Pipit, Birdie, Kiskadee (Kiss), Rue, Corbie, and Kite!

Willow's Rest, Tunis, Tunis mules, Leicester longwool, Teeswater, Border Leicester, and Gulf Coast Native sheep


Visit me on Facebook at Poudrier and Crowder, Set Out Specialists (P&C, SOS)

#51 Bo Peep

Bo Peep

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 2,460 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Meridian, ID
  • Interests:Dystonia, PT Cruisers, NASCAR,

Posted 30 January 2008 - 04:26 AM

I also know a woman who put "super glue" on her BC that she got from good breeding. She has also excelled in obedience and herding and agility and published a few books. YET- still glues the ears.
ETA- my bad spelling :rolleyes:
Dianne the human and Usher the furry man in my life
http://usherssheepdo...g.blogspot.com/

#52 sheepandakom

sheepandakom

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 200 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Varina, VA
  • Interests:Sheepherding, Border Collie Rescue, Showing Border Leicester Sheep, Law School.

Posted 30 January 2008 - 10:01 AM

Emily,
Lark's ears actually went through a stage, at three or four months, when the tips turned backward like you describe. It truly was odd looking.

I posted these not long ago in a thread on ears. Lark is about four months old in these pictures:



Now that I'm showing my Aussie in obedience, I should run into these folks a lot more. I will be curious to see if the ears go back where they should be, but given that he's at least two, and I know that she had them taped and glued for a long time, I am betting they won't. I completely agree that it is too much trouble to tape ears--silly, too!

Emily

#53 pammyd

pammyd

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 460 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Glasgow Scotland

Posted 30 January 2008 - 11:23 AM

flamingcomet, I don't suppose your "Working breeder" was this one? http://www.lockeyebc.../info.html#ears

Or this one? http://www.majesticb.../PuppyEars.html


Ewww
1st why??
but also those ears look wrong
The 2nd ones gluing to the inside of the ear produces a look I have not seen in a natrual collie - ears (or the ones I have seen anyway) flop to the outside
and the prick ones look wrong too - out of proportion with the dog

I always had a wee thing for prick ears - but that is not what Ben has turned up with - and he would look wrong any other way
and his ears are the 1st thing most people notice about him

Nature knows best - prick ears suit dogs that are supposed to have prick ears!
It should be a fault to have ears that look so unatural
(and I know having said that someone will come on with a dog with ears that naturally look like that)

#54 Samantha J

Samantha J

    ~My Girl & My Boy~

  • Registered Users
  • 2,214 posts
  • Gender:Female

Posted 30 January 2008 - 03:54 PM

Ewww
1st why??



Those were my thoughts too!!

I had not looked at those links until now, why would anyone want to do that to a pup.
Natural has got to look better, i personally like to see the different looks to the ears in this breed. Makes them more unique.


Oh and i quite liked Larks ears on those photo's. Funny but very cute!! :rolleyes:

 
Holly2.gif Holly & ZacZac21.gif


#55 kelpiegirl

kelpiegirl

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 4,368 posts

Posted 31 January 2008 - 11:07 AM

Holly's mom:
You best not TOUCH your boys ears!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We love them very much- and Holly's too!

Those were my thoughts too!!

I had not looked at those links until now, why would anyone want to do that to a pup.
Natural has got to look better, i personally like to see the different looks to the ears in this breed. Makes them more unique.


Oh and i quite liked Larks ears on those photo's. Funny but very cute!! :rolleyes:


Never wrestle with pigs, you only get dirty, and they like it.


http://kelpiematrix.blogspot.com/

#56 Eileen Stein

Eileen Stein

    Moderator

  • Administrators
  • 5,520 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Shady Side, MD, USA

Posted 31 January 2008 - 11:35 AM

I didn't notice any new activity in this thread before now either. In fact, I can't recall ever seeing an Archived Thread added to before. Anyway . . .

This is true in a way. There are 2 types of judges, Breeder Specialist Judges, (Who are breeders and owners of BCs themselves and know the breed very well) and Round Judges (Who know many breeds, some better than others)
Breeder specialist judges always judge specialty shows, but since there are only 3 in the entire U.S., they are obviously unable to judge at every show, and a round judge that will probably judge more on group movement (Straight front legs and back, nice flowing gait) will put up dogs that otherwise would not have won. Because this happens more, since there are more round judges, we see a lot more BCs with straight front legs and back legs, instead of being slightly cow-hocked, which is correct for a BC. Since these dogs with less correct structure are winning more, more people will breed to them, often thinking the judges know what they are doing, so they assume the dog must be nice because a judge says so.


What I understand you to be saying here is that most judges of most AKC Border Collie classes don't know enough to choose good Border Collies even by conformation standards. Don't you see this as a flaw that discredits the entire system? It means that most titles are awarded by unqualified people. Personally, I have never understood why I should value the opinion of someone who knows so little about border collies that they have to be "educated" at judge's education seminars. If I want an opinion about the quality of my dogs, I will turn to someone who knows more about border collies than I do, not someone who knows less.

I put a portion of what you wrote in boldface to contrast it with the AKC standard, which says: "Stifles are well turned with strong hocks that may be either parallel or very slightly turned in." Why then is a "round judge" wrong for putting up dogs with straight back legs, since the standard approves them?

And secondly, this is NO different that many WORKING BC breeders gluing up their dogs ears for prick. And yes, I know of many people who do this.


How many? Name them.

"Bone must be strong, medium being correct but lighter bone is preferred over heavy." Again from the AKC BC standard.



This, and several other quotes you include from the standard, is a relatively recent change in the standard. Apparently, how a Border Collie should look in order to be "correct" somehow changed. But as others have said, the point is not what the standard says, the point is what is getting put up, which sets the ideal that is held up to the world as the perfect Border Collie, and which conformation-minded people then breed for. (As you said earlier, "more people will breed to [the dogs that win], often thinking the judges know what they are doing, so they assume the dog must be nice because a judge says so.") A loose standard just permits judges to put up whatever strikes their fancy, and we can see what strikes the fancy of the overwhelming majority of conformation judges bone-wise, coat-wise, ear-wise, etc. by looking at the cookie-cutter dogs in the ring at Westminster.

Yes of course! So if it can't work, it's good for nothing else! Not companionship, not performance events, and certainly not conformation!


Who said that if it can't work, it's good for nothing else? Dogs who can't work can be fine for companionship and performance events. But the whole point of conformation is to set the standard for breeders to breed to. And a dog who can't work is not a "correct" standard for border collie breeders to breed to.

Not all show border collies are healthy, just as not all working BCs are healthy.


Then truly, what's the point? How can anyone be proud of titles awarded by incompetent people for things that don't matter?

according to this website, when choosing between breeders, if Breeder A does all health tests and produces sound healthy pups, but they register with the AKC, and Breeder B breeds for working ability, but doesn't preform any health tests and it is more likely that a pup will have health issues in the future, but they don't register with the AKC, a person should choose Breeder B because Breeder A registers with the AKC. That is very very sad.


I don't think you can have read this website very closely, if you think that. I don't know where you got the portion I have put in boldface from, but if it is true, then you should be looking for Breeder C.

"Blue eyes (with one, both or part of one or both eyes being blue) in dogs other than merle, are acceptable but not preferred." From the AKC BC standard.


Another case where the standard was changed, apparently to reflect some change in what is a "correct" Border Collie that mysteriously occurred. Under the prior AKC standard, blue eyes were acceptable only in merles.

"The AKC just revoked registration on a very well bred border collie because the dog looked funny. The dog did quite well at an AKC herding trial but the rep didn't like the way the dog's coat looked."

This is sad, but no different than the ABCA taking away a BCs herding title because the dog won a conformation title. Which HAS hapenned. Conformation dogs can't win herding titles other than at AKC events, and working dogs can't win conformation titles at AKC events. I think there is something seriously wrong with that.


As others have said, the ABCA does not take away a BCs herding titles. The ABCA/USBCHA system does not award herding titles, except nursery and open champion at the finals. Conformation dogs are not prevented from competing (or winning, if they can) at USBCHA trials.

The ABCA does de-register dogs who are awarded conformation championships. Here's a brief explanation of why that is so, taken from a previous thread:

The kennel club model for breeding -- adopting an appearance standard for the breed, breeding to conform to it, and judging and rewarding the dogs who conform best -- is contrary to the development of a good working breed. Working breeds which have been taken into kennel clubs and subjected to this reward system for conformation breeding have all, over time, suffered loss of their inbred working ability. We simply do not want that to happen to our dogs.

Entering a border collie in conformation shows, competing for a conformation title, and advertising a border collie as a conformation champion all lend legitimacy to the idea that an appearance standard is an appropriate measure by which to judge a border collie. That is a destructive idea, and one that we cannot allow to take hold in our gene pool. The more firmly the idea takes hold that the conformation ring is a valid measure of quality, the more breeders will buy into this notion and will breed to conform to the appearance standard that is rewarded there, and the more our breed's working ability will deteriorate over time. If working ability is to be preserved in our breed, the border collie must be judged by a working standard and by no other. The working standard must be our only standard of excellence.

Dogs shown to their championship are excluded from ABCA registration not because it's impossible today for an individual dog to possess working ability as well as an appearance that is rewarded in the breed ring, but because of the impact that conformation showing, breeding and judging of border collies will have on the descendants of those dogs in the long run. When border collies are shown in conformation they are placed on a different path, one which will make not them but their descendants a different kind of dog. Once a dog is placed on that path, and shown to a conformation championship, we believe that in the interests of preserving herding excellence in the breed he should not remain in the working registry.


Details about the dog de-registered by the AKC because it looked "beardie" can be found here.

Actually, many years ago, I believe late 1800's, it was common that after herding trials a conformation show of sorts was held. These breeders of old were perfectly fine with their dogs being judged structurally against a written standard.


I know of no instance of dogs being judged to a written conformation standard following sheepdog trials. It's true that there were "best-looking dog" contests which were minor and did not last long. Here is what Tim Longton had to say about that in The Sheep Dog: Its Work and Training, published in 1976:

[A]ny attempts to hold show classes for the breed are to be deplored, unless they are linked to working abilities. Sometimes, at the end of a trial, prizes are given for the best-looking dog, which must either have run in the trial or belong to a member of the local sheep dog association. This is just to add interest to a sociable afternoon, and to encourage youngsters to take care with the grooming of their charges. It has no connection whatever with current attempts to establish show standards for the Border collie in which height, coat, colour, set of ears and eye colour would be laid down. Such a move would do nothing but harm to the working collie. . . .

Enough has been written in this book to show that the best dogs have been of all colours, coats and sizes. There should be only one standard for the Border collie -- work.


Support the ABCA Health & Education Foundation by using Amazon Smile


#57 Janba

Janba

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 114 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Sydney

Posted 31 January 2008 - 12:18 PM

A question about the "bearded' borders that is slightly off topic.

How did the beardie Turnbull's Blue get ROM by the ISDS when the registering of a beardie would be against its own rules

From the ISDS website- bold highlights are mine

2. The dog that is the subject of the ROM must be a Border Collie over two years old and have a clear ophthalmic certificate for the eye diseases CEA and PRA (CPRA) and must additionally have a DNA blood test result from Optigen for CEA/CH showing a Clear or Carrier result (this DNA CEA/CH test requirement replaces the need for parent dog eye tests).

4. A colour photograph of the dog seeking registration, showing colour and markings.

5. Written confirmation by a currently serving Director of the Society that the dog seeking registration is a Working Sheep Dog and is true to type. This means that, irrespective of its coat style, colouring or size, the dog is a Border Collie as accepted by this Society.


While I do not want to get into the working vs show debate a BC is a BC and a beardie is a beardie and they are two totally seperate breeds so any offspring of Turnbull's Blue would be crosses even though they may be top working dogs. I would have thought that any self respecting owner of a good working beardie would have wanted it recognised as that not a BC.

edited spelling
Posted Image

#58 Katelynn & Gang

Katelynn & Gang

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 788 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Lake Orion, Michigan

Posted 31 January 2008 - 01:05 PM

While I do not want to get into the working vs show debate a BC is a BC and a beardie is a beardie and they are two totally seperate breeds so any offspring of Turnbull's Blue would be crosses even though they may be top working dogs.


Today a Border Collie is a Border Collie and a Bearded Collie is a Bearded Collie. It wasn't always like that, just like a Border Collie and a Collie weren't always two different breeds.

Collies use to be the ISDS breed of Border Collie which we see today but shepherds put "Border" in front of Collie to put a ridge between the dogs in the show ring which could no longer work and their true working Collies, today's "Border Collie." Collies use to come in beaded coat as well as the coats we see today in the Border Collie which can and sometimes also does, till this day, include beaded.

There are ISDS and ABCA "Bearded" Collies. They are just Border Collies with bearded coats, just like you have rough coats and smooth coats.

Good ol'e Conformation. Gotta love live it, there is sooooooo much people don't know. Its sad.
Posted Image

#59 Eileen Stein

Eileen Stein

    Moderator

  • Administrators
  • 5,520 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Shady Side, MD, USA

Posted 31 January 2008 - 01:20 PM

Today a Border Collie is a Border Collie and a Bearded Collie is a Bearded Collie.


I would modify this to say that today, in thinking influenced by the Kennel Clubs and their appearance standards, a Border Collie is a Border Collie and a Bearded Collie is a Bearded Collie. But the ISDS certainly registers dogs that are bearded, and will register on merit a dog that the KC registers as a Bearded Collie (for example, Turnbull's Blue). Janba, look at the last sentence of what you quoted a little bit differently: "This means that, irrespective of its coat style, colouring or size, the dog is a Border Collie as accepted by this Society." Turnbull's Blue, though registered as a Bearded Collie by the Kennel Club, was "a Border Collie as accepted by this Society," and he was added to the studbook, and now his descendents are registered border collies. When it comes to "type," the ISDS is more interested in how the dog works than in how it looks, or what the Kennel Club may say it is.

Support the ABCA Health & Education Foundation by using Amazon Smile


#60 Janba

Janba

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 114 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Sydney

Posted 31 January 2008 - 01:56 PM

I would modify this to say that today, in thinking influenced by the Kennel Clubs and their appearance standards, a Border Collie is a Border Collie and a Bearded Collie is a Bearded Collie. But the ISDS certainly registers dogs that are bearded, and will register on merit a dog that the KC registers as a Bearded Collie. Janbe, look at the last sentence of what you quoted a little bit differently: "This means that, irrespective of its coat style, colouring or size, the dog is a Border Collie as accepted by this Society. Turnbull's Blue was "a Border Collie as accepted by this Society," and he was added to the studbook, and now his descendents are registered border collies. When it comes to "type," the ISDS is more interested in how the dog works than in how it looks.


When I look at the beardies I have seen working here and NZ and the Smithfields (working beardies like dogs not ASTCD) besides the difference in looks their working style is very different. They are loose eyed dogs, can bark a lot while working, and tend to move the sheep by their constant movement and barking. To me it is a different dog with a different style of working regardless of looks. This may be very different in other countries and having not seen this dog work he may have been an "eye dog".

I wasn't thinking of the coat type or looks but the working style.

ETA I can see the different interpretation of the last sentence.
Posted Image



Reply to this topic



  

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

Copyright: All posts and images on this site are protected by copyright, and may not be reproduced or distributed in any way without permission. Banner photo courtesy of Denise Wall, 2009 CDWall. For further information, contact info@bordercollie.org.