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Inside Flanks


Alfreda
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Hi all- I was wondering if someone could clarify the term "inside flank" for me? Specifically, inside (or outside) of what reference point?

 

An example in another thread describes:

The handler is at 6 o'clock. The dog is at 3, facing (or moving towards) 12. The handler wants to dog to go towards 6. The directional command would be "come by." But to accomplish that the dog has to turn its body 180 degrees. It could do so by turning towards it's Right shoulder (outward) or turning (in) towards its left shoulder. (This is why I have to think clockwise and counter, verses left/right)

 

I'm thinking that turning IN to the sheep would be the "inside" flank (?). If that's correct, maybe that's preferrable because then the dog doesn't take its eyes off the sheep?

 

When and how are inside flanks trained? Do most dogs just naturally turn in when reversing direction? I'm not aware of any special command--It would just be "come by," right? But I wonder if there are ever times when a handler might want a dog to reverse direction by turning outward (to take pressure off maybe)?

 

Am I totally confused?

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you at 6:00. dog at 3:00. if you say come bye and the dog crosses in front of you to get to 9:00 that is an inside flank.

 

Crossing between you and the sheep is what makes it an inside flank.

 

if you were to say away, sending the dog towards 12:00 that would be a regular flank.

 

doesn't matter which way the dog turns except that you don't want your dog turning it's back to it's sheep unless it is leaving them to go get others.

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As red russell says, inside flank refers to when the dog needs to flank between sheep and the handler. The outside flank is when the dog flanks behind the handler. Both manoeuvres may be used for example when driving the sheep away from the handler. IME They are taught around the time ( or just before) you start teaching the dog to drive.

 

 

Do most dogs just naturally turn in when reversing direction? I'm not aware of any special command--It would just be "come by," right? But I wonder if there are ever times when a handler might want a dog to reverse direction by turning outward (to take pressure off maybe)?

 

In general when a dog is flankng, he should move in an arc-like direction and keep the same distance from the sheep during the flank.

 

When a dog flanks, you don't usually want him spiralling inwards nor do you want him moving in a straingt line (known as 'cutting his flank'). In both cases he could push the sheep in the wrong direction as he flanks around the stock.

 

If you want a dog to move out as he flanks (for example to release pressure or to continue to flank wider to gather additional sheep that are further away (perhaps he cannot see the more distant sheep)) you could add an 'out' command to your directional command and say 'come bye out'. ..alternatively, some people alter the way they whistle or say the command....and by drawing it out the dog knows to go wider.

 

Another example of when I use the 'out' command is when If I am working at the pen mouth and want my dog to release pressure by moving away , then I use 'out' without adding a direction.

 

In contrast, If a flock is dispersed and I want my dog to gather only the nearer few to me (for example perhaps one is lame or is lambing, needs help and so she needs catching, but I don't want the rest). Then as my dog is flanking past the first group, I personally use a 'this' or 'here this' command to direct my (experienced) dog to come in on that first group and ignore the rest. ..IMO. This is not something you should do too often with an inexperienced dog, in case he gets into a bad habit of only gathering the first few sheep he sees and ignoring the rest of the flock.

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Dave and Maxi- thanks so much for explaining! "Inside" makes sense in the context of driving, and now I see in others as well.

 

It's fascinating how the 5-7 basic commands (in the hands of experienced handlers & dogs) blossom into so many nuanced instructions for a variety of situations.

 

Maxi's description of a drawn out whistle for "go wider" reminds me of something I've been puzzling about that Pat Shanahan said at a clinic I audited. He talked about how, ideally he would have a different correction sound/word for every different command/situation. For example if the dog didn't stop after a "lie down" there would be a specific word for "wrong" in that situation.

 

This came up in the context of a question about how not to repeat commands over and over and his advice not to "make the command the correction" --by using a harsher tone of voice for instance. Before I heard him say that, I had thought that tone of voice was usually used to enforce as well as to modify a command. Are there two schools of thought on this?

 

I guess it makes sense to separate corrective information, if whistles/words are already being modified to convey information such as speed and distance... ? But don't many of us use our voices softly to release pressure, and sternly to add it on?

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Some top handlers use the same word but with different tones to convey different levels of command - for instance, "down" said softly means (asks for) a down; if the dog doesn't respond, the command is repeated but with a ramped-up tone of voice (tells); and if no response, a harsh voice (insists).

 

Other top handlers may use the same word with different inflection to convey the desire for different levels of response - "down" softly may mean to slow down, more firmly to stop, most firmly to actually lie down.

 

In general, a flanking command that is gentle and drawn out means to go wider and relatively slower. Spoken quickly and with more urgency, to come in closer and more relatively more quickly.

 

The nice thing I think about it all is that is no *one correct way* but there are a variety of approaches that work best for different handlers and different dogs. There are foundation principles of course, but each handler can tweak just how he/she interacts with each dog for the best results for them as a team with their own individual personalities.

 

At least this is what I have picked up and is subject to my own interpretation!

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I have different corrections on my current trial dogs. The rationale is that the dog should be given some clue as to what he is being corrected for. For example, if the dog takes the wrong flank, I growl "Listen ...". If the dog walks through a stop, I might bark out a "Hey!". If the dog slices his away to me flank, I will correct with "Do you hear me?" If he slices his come bye flank, I will correct with "What are you doing there?" And then there are the mild reminders of "keep" and "out", which I use at the pen when I want the dog to maintain distance on his flanks.

 

While this seems complex, once the dog learns what each correction addresses, they seem to enjoy the clarity. With my first trial dog, I would give him a fast lie him down for taking the wrong flank. The problem is that he began anticipating that a fast lie down meant that he was taking the wrong flank, so he would flip over to the other flank. This was not awesome at the pen, or in an arena trial, where I actually just wanted a fast stop. :D

 

 

Maxi's description of a drawn out whistle for "go wider" reminds me of something I've been puzzling about that Pat Shanahan said at a clinic I audited. He talked about how, ideally he would have a different correction sound/word for every different command/situation. For example if the dog didn't stop after a "lie down" there would be a specific word for "wrong" in that situation.

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Hi Kristi,

Thanks for sharing that-- I can certainly appreciate that using one skill/command (fast lie down) too much to fix another one, could cause problems down the line. The larger vocabulary approach makes sense even if it's more complex... Do you do the same with your whistles though? Are all your specific corrections only verbal and only used close range?

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Do you do the same with your whistles though? Are all your specific corrections only verbal and only used close range?

All of my corrections are verbals, but I can holler them at quite the distance, believe you me! Of course, the dog learns what the corrections mean close at hand. I can shame my dog at distance of about 200 yards, if required. :D What my mentors have drilled in me, though, is that if the dog sliced on a flank WHISTLE, then verbally correct and give the whistle again. That is, if I blew an Away and the dog sliced, I will blow a lie down, verbally correct ("do you hear me?") then blow the flank again. Similarly, if the dog gives me a naughty shape on a verbal flank, then I lie him down, verbally correct, then verbally ask for the flank again. I don't have whistle corrections. Does that help?

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Yes- thanks for the clarification ;-)

 

So you're still using the "down" to stop action, then a specific correction, then repeating the original command.... hopefully the sheep situation isn't changing too fast!

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So you're still using the "down" to stop action, then a specific correction, then repeating the original command.... hopefully the sheep situation isn't changing too fast!

Yes, I still use the stop, if it's a sliced flank. And to be honest, it shouldn't matter how fast the sheep situation is changing, if you think a sliced flank needs to be corrected. For me, anyway, that correction isn't contingent on whether the sheep are going to miss a panel, or pylon, or turn around the post. Also, it really shouldn't take that long. You blow a stop (which your dog should take with minimum delay), issue a verbal correction, and then the flank. My dog knows his corrections, and by the time I have said "Do you ...", he is bending out on a better away to me flank. It sounds complicated, but it's really not, once you get used to it. :D

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