Tolerance and dog aggression

[simba]

How much tolerance should a dog be expected to exercise around other dogs?

 

How much do you expect your dogs to exercise/what behaviours are appropriate? How do you teach the dog that?

 

Took the little dog to an on-lead area today. She was on-lead, we saw a bouncy excitable retriever who was off-lead, owners lying nearby in the grass. It was rushing at every dog which went by, but it was an open area with few people.

 

I had to go past it to get by so I went off in a kind of curve to give it plenty of space- 14 feet maybe? It bounced up to us. I put myself between the two dogs. It bounced around us in close circles and my dog first briefly showed discomfort (you know, looking away, licking lips) then growled and then air-snapped. Meanwhile big dog was bouncing right around us, putting its face up to hers, standing right over her, and eventually growling.

 

I beat a hasty retreat while telling the other dog to 'go home', but it was difficult to both do that and body block. I had no treats on me so couldn't try that trick.

 

 

On the one hand I do not want her to get the idea that snapping solves her problems, and maybe start resorting to that first. She will occasionally air snap to dogs which don't really seem to be rude, just perhaps a bit too close and too big. I am also afraid this could start a fight- it really escalated everything today.

 

On the other hand she behaves well when other dogs didn't approach her- it seems reasonable that she might just want to mind her own business and not have to interact (like Suzanne Clothier's article says).

 

So how much is too sensitive? When is it okay for a dog to snap or growl to warn another dog off, and when is it inappropriate?

 

[Gloria Atwater]

Well, all I can say is that in the case of a bouncy, excitable retriever bouncing right around my dog OFF LEASH, I'd forgive my dog entirely for air-snapping at him. I know if it were me, I'd have been hollering to the idiot dog's owner to get hold of the rude, obnoxious thing. And if they said, "Oh, he's friendly and wants to play," my reply would be a very stern, growled, "Well, I'm not and I don't."

Bottom line, that dog was incredibly rude, his owners were incredibly clueless and your poor girl had every reason to be offended. No, I don't want my dogs to become reactive and start biting other dogs, but in situations like this - which hopefully only happen once in a blue moon - I mainly do my best to get the heck out of there and my dog has total amnesty if all she does is growl and air snap.

That situation was way over the top, in my book. I'd say your girl actually did pretty darned good. My girl would have snapped and probably even charged at him, and my boy probably would have been entirely up on his toes, every hair on end and growling like a grizzly bear.

Bottom line, nothing your dog could have done would have eased that situation. Even if your girl didn't respond at all, it still would have been unpleasant and wholly unfair to her. Should you run into something like that again, it might be reason for you to put off being a nice, agreeable person and get in touch with your inner Mama Bear. The more you can protect your dog, the better it will be on her.

I think your dog actually sounds very restrained, given your scenario above. Large dogs and pushy dogs can be very much a trigger to border collies, because such dogs are a lot of pressure and being on leash severely limits her options. If you can keep working to avoid those kinds of dogs and situations, I think you should be okay with her. Make sure you earn and keep her trust in such situations and protect her from dogs who are more than she can bear to cope with.

Best regards,

Gloria

P.S.
My apologies if my answer sounds at all sharp! My annoyance is with that other dog and his dingbat owners! I HATE loose, obnoxious dogs whose owners don't do anything to rectify their behavior.

[G. Festerling]

With all of mine it is totally different. Belle hates everyone. But Thor. But they have to approach her and bug her a bit before she shows her teeth. And for some reason, she gets away with it. When my Germans show their teeth, then I am to late. But as a rule they are quite tolerant and rely on body posture more than teeth. Thor, my old Border Collie, he postures and is not allowed to meet many dogs but is good as gold about it and knows not to push it with me. His dad was a scrapper and so is he.

 

I think it is hard to generalize since in order for "nastry comments" to escalate, the other dogs temperament plays a big part.

[simba]

Yeah, I was fuming. The dog's owners were lying watching, and while they shouted at their dog and told it to stop, they didn't so much as sit up, let alone come over. I focused on shouting at their dog because it was in front of me, really. It happened so quickly I didn't quite know how to react.

 

Frankly I wanted to kick it. She's not perfect, but she's a small older dog with bad hips, it's not fair that she has to put up with idiots.

 

It's not so much that I think she was unjustified, than that I would prefer her to not snap, because of the way that gets perceived by other people, and because I fear it could start a fight she won't win.

[d112358]

I've kicked a couple of unleashed dogs who ran up while I was walking my terrier mix (she has a herniated disc and her personal bubble is about 5 feet). I figure as long as my dog knows to go behind me and gives appropriate escalating signals, I'm not going to change her mind about big bouncy dogs.

[Gloria Atwater]

Yeah, I was fuming. The dog's owners were lying watching, and while they shouted at their dog and told it to stop, they didn't so much as sit up, let alone come over. I focused on shouting at their dog because it was in front of me, really. It happened so quickly I didn't quite know how to react.

 

Frankly I wanted to kick it. She's not perfect, but she's a small older dog with bad hips, it's not fair that she has to put up with idiots.

 

It's not so much that I think she was unjustified, than that I would prefer her to not snap, because of the way that gets perceived by other people, and because I fear it could start a fight she won't win.

 

 

I understand. Unfortunately, though, in a situation like that, I don't think you really can expect her not to snap. She's only doing it when the other dog fails to heed her other warnings, and if you forbid her that, she could end up biting harder for greater fear. The best you can do when in a spot like that is just be as preemptive as you can in protecting her. Perhaps carry a walking stick as well?

 

I really am sorry you and your poor girl ran into that. Some people are such morons.

 

~ Gloria

[Scoutthebc]

"I think your dog actually sounds very restrained, given your scenario above. Large dogs and pushy dogs can be very much a trigger to border collies, because such dogs are a lot of pressure"

 

This makes such good sense, Gloria. Our pup loves to play with other dogs and puppies, but large dogs that get in her face scare her. Who can blame her? My approach has been to generate as many positive experiences with large, calm dogs as possible and not let pushy dogs get in her face!

 

I love the Clothier article. My previous dog (a Newfoundland) had little tolerance for rude behavior from other dogs. Luckily for us, she had incredible bite inhibition and her M.O. was a noisy body check, but we did manage it carefully. You can imagine that a stranger would not receive well a correction from a 100+ lb bear of a dog, soft mouth or no. Although it wasn't true, I never hesitated to say to an off leash, bouncy dog owner that "she doesn't like other dogs."the truth is, she had lots of dog friends and would ignore any calm dog in public or in classes. My trainer hit the nail on the head one day when she said, "she's a playground monitor." If she were in charge, no one would run or bark in the house, no one would wrestle too intensely, and no dogs would jump up or act over the top excited in any way. Young puppies were exempted.

 

My bargain with my Newfie was this: you ignore rude dogs that are outside of your personal space and I will keep them from getting in it. Her personal bubble was not allowed to be a half acre. Her love of tasty treats made it easy to dial down her bubble to a reasonable size.

[G. Festerling]

I actually think you take your dogs power to communicate effectively by interfering. All of the whole, don't force your dogs to have to visit issue aside. My old GSD was originally raised as a pet. She is an easy 100lbs. Not fat....just oversized! So she was early on told to tolerate (which was good manners for her as she never was an aggressive or intolerant dog by nature).

Now that she is older, I sometimes regret her not standing up to outside dogs that are jerks. And part of it is not wanting to be "bad" in her mom's eyes.

[Cody & Duchess]

I agree with Gloria. Your dog was fine, the retriever needs to learn manners. One of my dogs is really afraid of other dogs coming at her while she is on leash and the other dog is off leash. I adopted her because she was going to but to sleep bc of this fear. She has been with us 4 yrs. She trusts me to keep other dogs away from her. Most of the time I am successful. If I fail and a dog gets to close she does growl and show her teeth. I believe that warning sign is better than going into straight attack mode.

[simba]

Is there anything else I should do? Get between them, flee (without running), throw treats, shout at the dog and owners, anything else? It was a particularly big retriever, frankly it scared the crap out of me.

 

Where's the line between appropriate reaction, and leash aggression? Earlier on when she saw this dog running up to another dog in the same way, she started barking briefly, for example. Or she has occasionally snapped at dogs who were 'in her space' but not anywhere near being like that dog.

[d112358]

Where's the line between appropriate reaction, and leash aggression? Earlier on when she saw this dog running up to another dog in the same way, she started barking briefly, for example. Or she has occasionally snapped at dogs who were 'in her space' but not anywhere near being like that dog.

 

That's a line you get to set. My leash-reactive dog would lose his head barking at dogs 20 feet away (but is great off-leash), so with him I have very little tolerance for a stray bark - he gets intermittent reinforcement on almost every walk. My dog-selective snarker has a space bubble of about 5 feet and will redirect or leave it in the odd case where something at a distance gets her stirred up. That's pretty manageable for me, so I don't feel like it's a big deal.

[Maralynn]

If it was an on lead area and the dog was off lead harassing people while the owners ignored it, I would have though about calling the police and reporting an aggressive off leash dog. Your dog was not being unreasonable. Perhaps a walking stick of some sort would give you the means of physically keeping a dog further away from you in the future. Throwing a handful of treats at the dog while yelling at the owner would be another option that would probably get the dog's attention/redirect it at least

[Shetlander]

None of my dogs are taking applications for new friends and I am mistrustful of dogs I don't know. So I will step in between and tell, shout if necessary at dogs to go away when they approach my dog looking for play or trouble. I have an impressive bellow and most of the time they back off. And yes, usually the owner is assuring me how friendly the dog is.

 

I'd would definitely prefer it if Quinn didn't have a bubble with strange dogs, but he does. If we are in an on leash area, I expect other dogs to be under some sort of control and my dog isn't in the wrong because he doesn't want to romp with an instant BFF.

[Camden's Mom]

I'm lucky enough to have a dog who isn't reactive on leash to dogs approaching off leash, unless you count getting super excited to meet a new potential friend. Normally (unless I don't trust the dog that's approaching) I just let him sniff the other dog because it's easier. I also worry that I might develop a leash reactivity in him if every time we see a dog off leash I intervene and run the dog off.

 

Having said that, my eyes were opened to the seriousness of this issue of off leash dogs approaching when my dog was on limited activity from a leg injury. An off leash dog approaching us suddenly meant Camden could re-injure his leg and I was not about to keep extending his recovery because irresponsible owners didn't have control of their dogs. Calling out to the owners was always futile so I would throw treats to distract the other dog, bellow at the dog (like Sue suggested) and if the dog was terribly persistent I would try to physically body block (and a few times even kick) the approaching dog. My last straw was to just scoop my dog up and carry him away from the other dog (I do NOT recommend this, I only did this because it was either that or risk re-injury to his leg).

 

I dealt with this situation on almost a daily basis and I was frustrated and bewildered by people allowing their dogs to harass other on leash dogs... I never did purchase any but I found that there are spray deterrents you can buy. I wouldn't suggest pepper spray as that could really backfire but I think there were some brands that had a citrus smell that's supposed to deter dogs. You could also carry a crook or stick on your walks to help fend off approaching dogs. I'd even considered carrying a squirt gun... it might be enough to surprise an approaching dog just long enough for their owners to regain control.

 

And if all else fails I think you should allow your dog to use her own language to tell a dog that it's behavior is really not OK. If a rude stranger came rushing up to you, got in your face and started acting like an idiot I wouldn't expect you to remain civil and polite. I think you'd be perfectly within your rights to tell the stranger, in no uncertain terms, that he or she is behaving badly.

 

Sorry you are dealing with this... sadly I don't think there are any easy answers or solutions to this problem (short of educating all of the irresponsible/oblivious dog owners out there).

[simba]

I'm nervous about tone of voice in case I excite her more, but I will have to try this out and see.

 

She has got a bad habit recently of straining towards off-leash dogs silently once they've passed us, then growling when they actually approach her. It's happened two or three times recently.

 

When she was younger she was a terror on the leash herself, and I want to make damn sure that doesn't happen again. It's so nice to be able to walk without a barking snarling fit on the end of the lead. It used to worsen after every time she got a fright (she can be a bully but it seemed to be mostly fear.) Sorry, that's relevant, should have mentioned this earlier.

 

I can see how standing up for her has helped a lot, but she also has a tendency to decide that 'we' are fighting 'them' if I seem to get angry. Plus, like most people, I simply don't like doing it.

 

At least now she can walk quietly beside me when well-behaved dogs walk past. I can see why she would react the way she does- we have come across some very scary dogs over the years. I would just like to persuade her to tuck tail and retreat rather than getting involved.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

I have found that the BIG VOICE stops most obnoxious dogs (and their owners) though both may whine afterwards.

 

Tuck tail is an invitation for continued, enhanced aggression.

 

 

Donald McCaig

[urge to herd]

I like the BIG VOICE approach. My BIG VOICE was honed by living with 3 border collies for 9 years, two of whom lived to wrestle with one another and drag each other down the hall. The 3rd one was The Fun Police from the time she came out of her shell. One of the wrestlers was always and forever trying to get our Evil Orange Cat to play with him. EOC hated dogs, and loved to instigate trouble. Our sweet black kitty adored Buzz, so would follow him around and annoy him with her devotion. It was quite the rodeo at our house sometimes.

 

I got so good at reading the ambient growls, scuffles, and sometimes even the silences, that I could say KNOCK IT OFF in the BIG VOICE, and all canine/feline activity would cease. The cats would stalk off and the dogs would go to their blankets and lie down.

 

I've stopped a couple scuffles at dog parks with the BIG VOICE, between dogs not my own. I think it shocks them more than anything. It's a useful skill.

 

Ruth and Agent Gibbs

[sandysfarm]

I think that it's never a good idea, when you're out and being confronted, to do much more than say to another owner "get that dog away from me" in a serious tone of voice that is nowhere near a shout. That implies that it's me who's having the issue - who knows, maybe I'm phobic, or anxious, or just a wuss, but my personal recourse can be to go call a cop about a guy threatening me with a dog. My dog doesn't really have any recourse...he's just got me. If I start yelling, my dog now thinks I'm sharing her trauma - so now she's got 2 things to worry about - and within 2 secs, she's wearing that incident - bottom line is, walking dogs can be a real pain.

[Shetlander]

 

I'm nervous about tone of voice in case I excite her more, but I will have to try this out and see.

 

I understand your concern and only you can say how your dog is affected. My Big Voice/Bellow says "Stop it. Everyone." The first time I employed it was when I worked with kids and saw two boys getting into a fight across a large field. My "HEY!!!" pulled them apart instantly and startled me so much, I think I looked around to see who made that loud, deep yell . I don't yell a lot at my dogs, but the bellow makes an appearance now and then. They know to stop whatever they are doing and the storm will blow over quickly.

 

It is just a technique that usually works. Unless a dog is bombing towards us, I start with a very stern voice that many dogs decide to listen to. The bellow comes out when things are careening out of control and the dog gives a flip about my stern voice.

[d112358]

A stern 'leave it' followed by a big voice has worked well for boisterous dogs and dogs that are incidentally reactive. It didn't do anything when my neighbor's dog-aggressive pit slipped their fence.

[simba]

Donald McCaig- good point about the tail, thank you.

[juliepoudrier]

The sad thing, at least for many of my dogs, is that a really big voice is likely to be taken personally. So although I'm not threatening them, they will think I am.

 

I am one who would probably carry a crook/stick and bop the offending dog on the nose with it, which might result in the owners jumping up to do something, lol!

 

J.

[highway61]

simba, I was in a similar situation when at a dog park I take my dogs to. I have a 10 yr old heeler (Foster) and a 14 month BC (Sammy). The old guy is very confident around other dogs where the youngin' is not. So I watch Sammy closely. There was this great dane that kept getting close and at first Sammy will submit but if a strange dogs keeps getting its nose too close in his grill he starts to flash his teeth and snip. The Dane saw all the warnings but just didn't seem to care. So I grabbed Sammy's collar and removed him from the situation. But it did kind of disturbed me to see this aggression from my normally happy-go-lucky dog.

 

Later that night, without even discussing what happened to anyone else, I was reliving that situation while trying to go to sleep. At hit me like a ton of bricks, my dog didn't overreact in that situation, I did! It occurred to me that if that other dog didn't heed all the warnings to back off who am I to interfere? After all it wasn't MY dog causing any trouble, he was minding his own business when this giant came nosing around. I guess I was so worried that a dog fight would erupt when later I'm thinking why should I do anything in that situation? I know a lot of folks here hate dog parks but I've had pretty good luck getting Sammy socialized there. This was really the only "incident" (if you can call it that) that we've had so far. So since then when I take the dogs to the off leash park I still watch the BC like a hawk and will insert myself between him and another dog when I see fit but otherwise, I let him flash his teeth and snap when the other dogs don't get the message the first time. Anyway, so far so good.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

A member correctly noted that the BIG VOICE won't work with a seriously aggressive dog. Although some may have had different experiences I have never met such a dog in a dog park. The illmannered dogs I meet have been illtrained by enabling owners. That a person would presume to tell them to CUT IT OUT!!! is so startling they (dog and owner) often do so.

 

Although I remember some USMC defenses against a seriously aggressive dog, they leave the dog crippled or dead and, Geezer Donald would likely get his ass chewed if he tried.

 

Donald McCaig

[d112358]

simba, I was in a similar situation when at a dog park I take my dogs to. I have a 10 yr old heeler (Foster) and a 14 month BC (Sammy). The old guy is very confident around other dogs where the youngin' is not. So I watch Sammy closely. There was this great dane that kept getting close and at first Sammy will submit but is a strange dogs keeps getting its nose too close in his grill he starts to flash his teeth and snip. The Dane saw all the warnings but just didn't seem to care. So I grabbed Sammy's collar and removed him from the situation. But it did kind of disturbed me to see this aggression from my normally happy-go-lucky dog.

 

Later that night, without even discussing what happened to anyone else, I was reliving that situation while trying to go to sleep. At hit me like a ton of bricks, my dog didn't overreact in that situation, I did! It occurred to me that if that other dog didn't heed all the warnings to back off who am I to interfere? After all it wasn't MY dog causing any trouble, he was minding his own business when this giant came nosing around. I guess I was so worried that a dog fight would erupt when later I'm thinking why should I do anything in that situation? I know a lot of folks here hate dog parks but I've had pretty good luck getting Sammy socialized there. This was really the only "incident" (if you can call it that) that we've had so far. So since then when I take the dogs to the off leash park I still watch the BC like a hawk and will insert myself between him and another dog when I see fit but otherwise, I let him flash his teeth and snap when the other dogs don't get the message the first time. Anyway, so far so good.

 

It's possible to interfere in a less obvious way when you see your dog uncomfortable and the other dog isn't straight-up bouncing on them, since some poorly-socialized dogs will overreact to an appropriate dog-dog correction. I probably would have gone with some sort of happy talk 'Hey guys, let's get moving!' and tried to get them to start walking. There's less social pressure all around if the dogs are moving and have the chance to notice other things in the environment. Some parks (like Magnuson park in Seattle) are designed with long corridors to keep dogs moving and minimize dog fights.