ClickMeBC Posted March 25, 2007 Report Share Posted March 25, 2007 Hello, my name is Sophie, I'm new to the boards, and though not new to Border collies in general, I should be bringing home my first BC pup in two weeks. After endless hours of research, fostering a border collie, interacting with many and years of love for the breed, it's finally happening. My current three dogs(2 IGs and a JRT cross) and I are actively training and competing in agility which we'll be doing with the new puppy, and I'd like to get into herding and disc, as well. I was hoping to gain some extra knowledge and obtain advice from some experience BC owners and handlers through this Board. I understand that the Border collie is an extremely high drive dog, will find "work" for themselves if it's not provided, are often intelligent enough to outsmart their owners/handlers and can form obsessive habits if both mental and physical stimulation aren't offered every day, but I also know that they're beautiful, wonderful dogs and are perfect candidates for the sports and activities that I've become happily addicted to. As I mentioned, we'll be doing Agility and hopefully herding and disc(though we're very careful about keeping all four of those puppy paws on the ground until he's fully developed...I'm terrified of problems like tendinitis, too often caused by such overactivity during puppyhood). I'd like to begin training from day 1. He's six weeks right now, so we'll be picking him up at 8 weeks and as soon as he comes home I'll begin introducing the clicker and have him learning his name. Of course "sit", "down" and the almighty Recall we'll get started on within the first week, as well. Groundwork and puppy exercises for agility will come soon enough, but what about introductory herding? Is there anything that should be done to promote the herding at such a young age, or is the instinct left to develop on it's own until the introduction of sheep? If any of you play around or compete in disc, should we promote interest in the frisbee as I would a tug toy for agility? Any tips or advice on the general imprinting of a puppy of this breed would be great. I'm planning on enrolling him in puppy classes as soon as his last set of shots are administered, so that should be fun. I've raised several puppies, but never a BC, and I very much look forward to interacting and forming a partnership with a dog of such a wonderful breed. And advice would be very much appreciated. I'll post a photo of Puppy in the gallery, too... And of course, I look forward to taking part in the activity on the BC Boards! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted March 25, 2007 Report Share Posted March 25, 2007 Hi, Sophie, and welcome. I agree that working on the pup knowing its name and a recall are essential. However, I know nothing about doing so with a clicker--I just train it. Anyway, as far as stockwork goes, along with a recall and a lie down (which are really great, but not absolutely necessary before beginning), I think the biggest thing is that the dog have respect for you--that it understands who is in charge. Doesn't mean you can't love on 'em, but you are still the one in charge--so say what you mean, mean what you say, and be 100% consistent. Other than that, the rest has to be on the stock. Now, everyone will tell you different things about when to take the pup to stock as well as when to begin actually training on stock. A lot really depends on the pup and the handler. However, I really like to at least expose them to stock as young as I can, which means for my own breedings, at about 6-7 weeks and for a pup I buy, about 2 days after I bring them home. BUT, and this is a really big but, I am not taking them to stock to train at that age, AND I am using appropriate stock--sheep that will stick very close to me, so that I can get the pup to interact a bit and stay in contact with them. If the sheep just run away, then the pup can't catch them, as it's too small, and it doesn't really get to be close enough to them to get any kind of sense of what it's doing. At this age, all I look for is some interest in the stock--if the pup wants to chase, fine--it's too small to hurt anyone. All I'm trying to do at this point is let the pup see sheep and have a positive experience with them. Happy voice, let the pup chase a bit, keep it all good and happy and fun. When the pup is then old enough to start training (which varies depending on the pup, the handler, and the trainer you are working with), it will have had a positive experience earlier, which I think lets them understand that it's OK to go interact with the sheep., Lots of times by the time a pup is old enough to really start, it's been told to not chase the kitty, not get on furniture, etc., so it thinks that all the really *fun* things in life are no-nos. I may let the pup have interaction like that once or more a week (but I have stock here, so that's easy). Anyway, I hope others respond, because I would like to see what others do. This has been my method for years, and it works for me, Anna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kat's Dogs Posted March 25, 2007 Report Share Posted March 25, 2007 Dazzle welcomes you to the boards. I don't know about the herding thing, but for disc - yes, getting the pup to play with discs and enjoy them at an early age is very helpful. Just make sure you have a real canine disc (they are softer, so they don't hurt their jaws/teeth). Getting a puppy (or "small breed") disc would be a good thing to start with instead of a big one. Good luck with the pup!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClickMeBC Posted March 26, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2007 Thanks so much for the replies( and thank you very much for the welcome, Dazzle! )! Herding and disc are both amazing to watch and I look forward to getting involved. We'll be sure to find a "floppy" disc to start out with. As you mentioned, stockdogranch, everywhere I go on the internet suggests different ages to begin with the herding and exposure to the stock. Many say first intro should be at 6 months, but I was wondering whether or not a positive and happy exposure to sheep should happen as a young puppy a couple times. Your methods make the most sense to me, to be honest - I appreciate your confirming that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 Whatever you decide to do, mostly let the pup tell you what it's ready for, and go from there. The biggest thing is to have fun! Anna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClickMeBC Posted March 27, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 Whatever you decide to do, mostly let the pup tell you what it's ready for, and go from there. The biggest thing is to have fun! Of course! Fun is our focal point, especially at this age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClickMeBC Posted April 11, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2007 Quynn came home on April 7th, this last Saturday. He's a precious little guy and is a quick learner(I've yet to meet a BC that isn't after all) - he's got "Touch", "down" and "sit" down, he's following a lure, he LOVES to tug(a very good thing), Recall is coming along well and he's getting along with the other dogs wonderfully. I have to admit, though I was aware of the extremely high energy needs of the BC and the mental/physical stimulation requirements, I wasn't quite expecting it at this young age. I'm trying to limit the amount of running and leaping he does...I'm terrified of injury...but he's got boundless energy and doesn't sleep nearly as much as all my other dogs did when pups. He stuck very, very close to me the first couple days but he's getting a bit more independent now and is willing to let me out of sight in order to explore or chase a toy. I do have a question: He's showing some behaviors that I've never experienced with other pups, but this I expected. If we're outside and walking to and from where he goes "potty", he'll jump back and fourth in front of me and nip at my feet, ankles, or pants. He'll do this behind me, as well...I guessed it was herding instinct but I didn't know they displayed it this young. If I have a treat available I'll distract him from nipping, have him sit and Click! and treat for a wanted behavior instead of scolding for an unwanted one....but if I don't have a treat(in the case of our rushing outdoors for an emergency bathroom break, which has happened a couple times ), I'll scold gently but I'm hesitant to do much more than pick him up and carry him in. I know he's not asking to be picked up - he prefers to be on the ground. Should I simply always, always have treats on hand? It seems he always catches me off-guard - I carry treats around most of the day when he's being a wild man(if he's aware I have food or a toy he'll sit immediately to earn it ), and as soon as I put them away or run out, he'll perform a much desired behavior, such as coming when called or lying down at my feet. How do they know.... If anyone has any advice, I'm more than willing to listen in on the BC experts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted April 11, 2007 Report Share Posted April 11, 2007 he'll jump back and fourth in front of me and nip at my feet, ankles, or pants. He'll do this behind me, as well...I guessed it was herding instinct but I didn't know they displayed it this young. I wouldn't call it herding instinct, more like high energy, high drive puppy play. I'd have something to redirect his attention (treat or toy), but also be introducing an "ahh" or something like that to tell him something is not appropriate. Very short "time outs"can work well, too - if he were playing with his puppy siblings and nipped to hard, playtime would be over! Sounds like you'll have lots of fun with your little rascal! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossie Posted April 12, 2007 Report Share Posted April 12, 2007 I do have a question: He's showing some behaviors that I've never experienced with other pups, but this I expected. If we're outside and walking to and from where he goes "potty", he'll jump back and fourth in front of me and nip at my feet, ankles, or pants. He'll do this behind me, as well...I guessed it was herding instinct but I didn't know they displayed it this young. If I have a treat available I'll distract him from nipping, have him sit and Click! and treat for a wanted behavior instead of scolding for an unwanted one....but if I don't have a treat(in the case of our rushing outdoors for an emergency bathroom break, which has happened a couple times ), I'll scold gently but I'm hesitant to do much more than pick him up and carry him in. I know he's not asking to be picked up - he prefers to be on the ground. Should I simply always, always have treats on hand? It seems he always catches me off-guard - I carry treats around most of the day when he's being a wild man(if he's aware I have food or a toy he'll sit immediately to earn it ), and as soon as I put them away or run out, he'll perform a much desired behavior, such as coming when called or lying down at my feet. How do they know.... If anyone has any advice, I'm more than willing to listen in on the BC experts! Hi! I'm not an expert, but I am a border collie owner I my little guy is only 10 months old, so I have just been through some of what you are talking about! I would be very slow to call anything rude "herding behavior." He has no business nipping at you and you should make that clear. My dog was never very nippy, but he did sometimes like to clamp onto my pants if I was wearing a loose-legged pant and we were walking around a corner so that it flapped in his face. I just detached him from the pant, said uh-uh, and went on. It also helped to learn his signals for when he was about to go crazy and redirect before he misbehaved. The problem with some of these little stinkers is that they can comprehend multiple steps in order to get a reward. My dog took forever to learn not to jump on me and my trainer said that this was because in his head, jumping up was step one in a routine that led to attention and praise I.E., (1) I jump on mom. (2) Mom says "Off!" (3) I put four feet on the floor. (4) I am rewarded by petting. To stop my guy from jumping up, I just had to ignore the behavior and walk away from him. I would try to nip the puppy's treat-focused behavior in the bud via random reinforcement. Also, when you ask for a behavior when no treat is visible and he still does the trick, he should get a much better reward than usual (a piece of meat, rather than a piece of kibble). This means hiding excellent treats around the house or in extra pockets, but it works! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClickMeBC Posted April 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 12, 2007 Thank you both for the excellent tips. Rossie, I never considered that possibility of him making the 3-4 step connection of getting that treat! They're constantly outsmarting, aren't they? He was a crazy boy today, and this evening after taking him out(and after spinning in endless circles for no apparent reason ) he actually bit my ankle hard enough so that it was pretty uncomfortable - I had to place my hand pretty firmly on his muzzle and say "NO". He didn't do it again after that, instead offered a sit(I admit, it was cute...I almost lost it there). He's insanely smart and very food/toy driven, which I love, but I'll have to be careful with the nipping. I suppose he could eventually incorporate it into agility, which would be innapropriate. After watching the scenario many times, few things scare me as much as a crazed BC, Aussie, or Aussie Cattle dog constantly snapping at his handler's hands and feet throughout the course while running at crazy speeds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted April 12, 2007 Report Share Posted April 12, 2007 Don't accept nipping. If he does it, correct him. Forget about distracting him and rewarding him: teach him right from wrong, and make sure that nipping is always wrong. Border collies often don't need treats or praise to feel rewarded for a behavior. They often just need to be allowed to do it. Moreover, as Rossei points out, under the system you've described -- puppy nips, you give him something else to do and reward him -- he's probably learning that if he wants a reward he can get it by starting with the nipping. You always need to be aware of what the pup is learning, not just what you think you're teaching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurie etc Posted April 12, 2007 Report Share Posted April 12, 2007 You always need to be aware of what the pup is learning, not just what you think you're teaching. CLASSIC LINE, Bill! So true! Click...With young pups that do this pants leg/ankle biting, I stop walking briefly, use a quick one finger sharp rap across the bridge of the nose, paired with a short "ARGH" noise. This doesn't really hurt, but usually startles the pup momentarily into letting go of the pants leg. As soon as he lets go I start walking again and encouragingly say "good pup" if he doesn't pursue the pants again. If he does, another quick rap and "argh" happens. Doesn't take long for pups to make the connection. In really tough cases, I've used the pick 'em up and time out from playing method. Laurie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.