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#41 Creiglowlady

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 04:43 PM

So not worth it.
My husband works with a man who's pit bull just bit his 6 year old daughter about 4 months ago and she had to get 12 stitches in her face tithe guy took his do out back and shot it right after. And I know it's not just pit bulls but they are doing most of the attacking you can't fight the proof.

#42 Tommy Coyote

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 05:12 PM

The problem with bully breeds is that when they do bite it is catastrophic. In one of the examples on the dogsbite site it took 3 grown men, a crowbar and a gun to get the dog off the little girl and even after it was shot it kept coming.

And that attack was unprovoked.

#43 simba

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 05:38 PM

Here it's collies (generic border collie types) who cause horrific injuries and accidents, and cocker spaniels. Cheap undervalued dogs, seems to be. I'm not convinced it's a pit bull thing. It's huskies in Canada.

 

Don't try to tell me that collies don't do this crap. I've seen too many people with horrific permanent scars from unprovoked attacks. I mean serious maulings. In some cases they basically had to half-kill the dog to just get them to stop attacking (strangled the dog to unconsciousness just to get it to let go of the person's leg). I think they really should be a dog you take some kind of a test to own.

 

I've known about 4 pit bull breed types, lovely dogs. I've known lots of collies and at least half of those bit humans to the point that you could not be around them safely as a stranger no matter what you were doing. I mean 'standing quietly with your arms crossed over your chest, averting your gaze, with the owner there' would get you bitten.



#44 Creiglowlady

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 06:31 PM

Simba you're right I was just on the topic of pit bulls at the Moment and I also agree you should have testing people to be worthy of owning a dog. I also think you shouldn't be able to breed what so ever without a license but people do it anyways. I knew quite a few nice pit bulls (never had a problem with the breed itself just was reading the statistics) and have known some herding breeds that were viscous as well. But we also have a problem with people being in denial of their dogs aggression no matter what breed.

#45 Liz P

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 09:41 PM

Simba, I know someone with a Border Collie who has attacked multiple dogs.  I would not put it past him to bite a human either, though he lives in a 10 x 10 pen now so doesn't have much opportunity.  As the person who choked him to stop one of the attacks on another dog, I can tell you he was determined to not let go until he was dead.  He simply was not large enough to cause life threatening damage though, just punctures and bruising. 

 

His half brother was euthanized for biting multiple people.  Another half brother has a reputation.  I hear plenty of stories about other close relatives.  People keep breeding these lines though and fail to inform the puppy buyers.

 

I had a collie type mix foster dog.  On the way from picking him up from his former owners he broke the dog seat belt he was wearing and tried to grab my arm.  I called the rescue group about this.  They thought I was making it sound worse than it was.  His behavior scared me.  True dominant aggressive dogs are rare.  He was one.  He attacked one of my other dogs once and tried to attack him several other times, breaking out of crates and through doors to go after him.  He tried to attack me in my living room, but one of my dogs intercepted him, grabbed him by the neck and prevented the attack.  I made it clear that I was done, he needed to be euthanized.  The rescue BOD took him and had a meeting about his fate.  At the meeting he mauled a volunteer.  Only then was he euthanized.

 

I have zero tolerance for this.   Zero.  There are far too many good dogs in the wold to risk keeping the biters around, let alone breed from them.  I don't care what breed it is.

 

Seven years ago a dog bit me on the face, fracturing my skull in multiple places where the canines entered my nasal sinuses.  By some miracle, all the teeth missed my eyes.  Carefully placed sutures minimized the scars.  I still have problems with my sinuses as a result of that bite.  Last year a dog bit my hand, breaking a finger.  It still doesn't feel right, the joint cracks loudly all the time and it aches quite a bit.  One of my own dogs has been attacked multiple times and has PTSD as a result.  I think you can understand now why I am tired of the excuses people make about their "friendly dog" that would "never bite anyone."

 

Here is some interesting reading for you.  Dr. Ian Dunbar's bite scale.



#46 Creiglowlady

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Posted 12 May 2017 - 12:00 PM

Simba, I know someone with a Border Collie who has attacked multiple dogs.  I would not put it past him to bite a human either, though he lives in a 10 x 10 pen now so doesn't have much opportunity.  As the person who choked him to stop one of the attacks on another dog, I can tell you he was determined to not let go until he was dead.  He simply was not large enough to cause life threatening damage though, just punctures and bruising. 
 
His half brother was euthanized for biting multiple people.  Another half brother has a reputation.  I hear plenty of stories about other close relatives.  People keep breeding these lines though and fail to inform the puppy buyers.
 
I had a collie type mix foster dog.  On the way from picking him up from his former owners he broke the dog seat belt he was wearing and tried to grab my arm.  I called the rescue group about this.  They thought I was making it sound worse than it was.  His behavior scared me.  True dominant aggressive dogs are rare.  He was one.  He attacked one of my other dogs once and tried to attack him several other times, breaking out of crates and through doors to go after him.  He tried to attack me in my living room, but one of my dogs intercepted him, grabbed him by the neck and prevented the attack.  I made it clear that I was done, he needed to be euthanized.  The rescue BOD took him and had a meeting about his fate.  At the meeting he mauled a volunteer.  Only then was he euthanized.
 
I have zero tolerance for this.   Zero.  There are far too many good dogs in the wold to risk keeping the biters around, let alone breed from them.  I don't care what breed it is.
 
Seven years ago a dog bit me on the face, fracturing my skull in multiple places where the canines entered my nasal sinuses.  By some miracle, all the teeth missed my eyes.  Carefully placed sutures minimized the scars.  I still have problems with my sinuses as a result of that bite.  Last year a dog bit my hand, breaking a finger.  It still doesn't feel right, the joint cracks loudly all the time and it aches quite a bit.  One of my own dogs has been attacked multiple times and has PTSD as a result.  I think you can understand now why I am tired of the excuses people make about their "friendly dog" that would "never bite anyone."
 
Here is some interesting reading for you.  Dr. Ian Dunbar's bite scale.


Wow lizP I'm so sorry that you have been through experiences like that how awful.
I also wanted to add that I'm greatful for the page that you posted. It is full of very helpful information on bite inhibition which I am currently trying to teach my 14 week old bc/Aussie. Nothing has worked I practiced the methods they talk about and after only one time of doing so she has already showed progress. I know it will take some time and alot of work on my partfor her to get over the human chew toy faze but I am impressed on how quickly she caught on. So thank you thank you thank you!

#47 rushdoggie

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Posted 12 May 2017 - 03:39 PM

The thing about pitties is their people.

 

IME, most of the time, they are lovely dogs.

 

But their genetics include a history of dog-dog aggression which sometimes get expressed in dog-people aggression or a gameness that makes them dangerous to small animals. They are certainly not the only breed with that history and potential.

 

But among those breeds, they are the breed most often owned by clueless owners.

 

I have friends with Rottweilers, Akitas, Briards, large sighthounds, etc. These friends are perfectly aware that their dogs might become too protective, or slip over into some predatory aggression. SO they train their dogs, manage their dogs and watch their dogs. I see this with "pedigreed" pittie types, too like Am Staffs or Staffy Bulls.

 

Its the regular pet people who got their dog from the humane society or a neighbor's litter who think that because their dogs were never abused, they could never go after another dog or person. If you just raise them with love, its ok, because dogs that bite must have been abused or taught to be mean.

 

Thus, they let their dog walk right up to my toy breeds all the time ignoring me when I say please, my dogs don't want to visit. They don't train them, they let them run loose, they let them hang unsupervised with kids, or supervise while the kids do stuff that makes the dog uncomfortable. They ignore warning signs, or think "well that mean man must have done something to make my dog growl."

 

These same people like to lecture me on how my Border Collie will chase children if I am not careful because thats what hes bred to do, but they fail to see genetics plays a part in all dogs and all dogs have the potential to bite, especially ones with a history of gameness.

 

I had a student in my advanced obedience class come UNGLUED when after 3 times of her big lug of a pitty mix (100+ pounds of goofy dog) walking up to other dogs in class, I said something to her. She had let him walk up to a Papillon in the facility parking lot and his owner had gotten upset as she had just lost a cat to a stray dog getting into her yard.

 

Her dog was NOT aggressive, how dare I, etc etc. She yelled at me, wrote unpleasant emails, etc.

 

All I did was ask her to be careful she didn't let her dog walk up to people and dogs without their permission.


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#48 simba

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Posted 12 May 2017 - 05:10 PM

The collie of my childhood had an owner who SAW the dog bite people hard enough to draw blood, repeatedly, unprovoked. I'm not talking "Oh I bent over the dog suddenly and it bit me" unprovoked, I'm talking "The dog crossed a long distance to bite a reasonably familiar child who was standing there silently" unprovoked. 

 

"Oh, she's never done that before. "

 

Next time you saw her and you jumped on the table to avoid the dog it would be "I can't understand why you are so afraid of dogs. You have a dog."

 

Edited to add: Liz, I am so sorry, I completely forgot to thank you for the bite scale! It's a good read, something useful to have.

 

Creigowlady and Rushdoggie- well said. I just wish we could have a 'hey these are difficult dogs and you probably should not own them' thing like tends to happen for people who love terriers. Rather than an 'omg these dogs are evil so if you get one you should keep it outside away from everyone and never socialize it and it should be illegal to walk it without a muzzle', which I have seen happen, or 'it's all in how you raise them and you don't need to learn about dog body language or manners'.



#49 Smalahundur

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Posted 13 May 2017 - 09:05 AM

Well simple question then, what would you prefer coming at you in a killer rage, a bordercollie or a staffordshire terrier (or pitbull or cane corso etc etc)?
I for one am rather pleased to live in a country where such breeds are non existent, and with a strict ban on import of them.

"Milli manns og hests og hunds hangir leyniþráður"


#50 Creiglowlady

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Posted 13 May 2017 - 09:41 AM

Well simple question then, what would you prefer coming at you in a killer rage, a bordercollie or a staffordshire terrier (or pitbull or cane corso etc etc)?
I for one am rather pleased to live in a country where such breeds are non existent, and with a strict ban on import of them.

Wow they are totally banned? In your whole country? My question is and not being rude just wondering if their are less deaths by dogs there.

And I think it's a trick question all thoughi I see your point I would not want to get bit or attacked by any breed of dog lol.

#51 Creiglowlady

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Posted 13 May 2017 - 09:44 AM

The collie of my childhood had an owner who SAW the dog bite people hard enough to draw blood, repeatedly, unprovoked. I'm not talking "Oh I bent over the dog suddenly and it bit me" unprovoked, I'm talking "The dog crossed a long distance to bite a reasonably familiar child who was standing there silently" unprovoked. 
 
"Oh, she's never done that before. "
 
Next time you saw her and you jumped on the table to avoid the dog it would be "I can't understand why you are so afraid of dogs. You have a dog."
 
Edited to add: Liz, I am so sorry, I completely forgot to thank you for the bite scale! It's a good read, something useful to have.
 
Creigowlady and Rushdoggie- well said. I just wish we could have a 'hey these are difficult dogs and you probably should not own them' thing like tends to happen for people who love terriers. Rather than an 'omg these dogs are evil so if you get one you should keep it outside away from everyone and never socialize it and it should be illegal to walk it without a muzzle', which I have seen happen, or 'it's all in how you raise them and you don't need to learn about dog body language or manners'.


I deffinetly think that keeping them locked away and muzzled and unsocialized would make for a more aggressive dog just my opinion. I also think that with any breed people that want to own a dog should educate themselves as much as possible. Having the Internet at the palm of your hand makes it a whole lot easier to do so.

#52 Smalahundur

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Posted 13 May 2017 - 10:57 AM

Wow they are totally banned? In your whole country? My question is and not being rude just wondering if their are less deaths by dogs there.
And I think it's a trick question all thoughi I see your point I would not want to get bit or attacked by any breed of dog lol.

As I live in Iceland, it is easy for the government to enforce such a ban, it being an island. Traditionally such breeds weren't kept here, and they took measures immediately when people started importing fancy foreign breeds as the country developed to a richer western style society (which wasn't before just after WO II).
I have lived here for 20 years and I have not heard of one single incident where a dog killed a human being.

My question wasn't meant as a trick question, a bit rhethorical rather. To answer it myself, I'd prefer the bordercollie.
Those breeds aren't called "powerbreeds" for nothing, their jaws can break bones easily. With a bordercollie in killer attack mode I know I will probably get hurt pretty bad, but I also know I have the physical strength to win the fight. Against a a pit or a stafford, not so sure...

"Milli manns og hests og hunds hangir leyniþráður"


#53 Creiglowlady

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Posted 13 May 2017 - 11:24 AM

I can agree with you and thought it was interesting that they band the whole breed with success since in America they are everywhere. I also know it was not a trick question I was just finding it hard to pick what breed to be attacked by. Pitbulls are stronger but border collies are faster. But if I had to pick I would pick a border collie over a pitbull any day.

#54 Blackdawgs

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Posted 13 May 2017 - 11:35 AM

My heart dog who died in June 2016 was a pit bull. When she was approximately 14 weeks old, she wandered onto a friend's farm.  The friend gave her to me.  After the vet told me that she was a pit bull, I almost didn't keep her.

 

Instead she was my best friend for over 14 years.  She cheerfully endured stupid people and stupid dogs--despite very significant health problems at the end of her life, we never reached the end of her fuse.

 

She taught me so much.

 

If I had listened to the news reports, horror stories, and peoples bias', I would have missed so much.



#55 Smalahundur

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Posted 13 May 2017 - 12:04 PM

I think no-one would deny that they can be great dogs. But dogs from any breed have individuals that for whatever reason become dangerously aggressive.
Discussion aside whether those powerbreeds have a higher incidence of that happening (as another aside I think they do), there is no doubt in my mind that when that happens those dogs have a vastly greater potential to do serous damage, even mortal than the average dog. That was my point.

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#56 D'Elle

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Posted 13 May 2017 - 12:48 PM

"  There are far too many good dogs in the world to risk keeping the biters around, let alone breed from them.  I don't care what breed it is. "

 

I agree with this sentiment wholeheartedly.

 

There is a thing that really bothers me about the pit bull and bully breeds issue.

 

When I was a kid ( and here, I date myself, but whatever), the "American bull terrier" was considered to be the All Around Great American Family Dog. They were in TV shows, in advertising photos, every block in the country had at least one family that had one. There was no hype about them being dangerous, just the opposite.

 

Now, I grew up in Canada, but the attitude towards the breed was much the same there, although there were not as many of them where I lived.

 

At that time, at least where I lived, the German Shepherd Dog was considered to be potentially a Dangerous Dog, one that you could not trust, one who could and would suddenly "turn on you" and become violent and vicious. Anecdotal stories circulated.  People were warned against them.

then, a decade or so later, it was Rottweillers that were considered to be dangerous-will-turn-on-you dogs.  Anecdotal stories circulated. People were warned. Then after that, it was Dobermans.

 

Now it is pit bulls.

The pit bull reviling phase has lasted longer and is more widely spread and has brought about more problems for the breed than any of the other phases with other breeds.

I think this is for these reasons (perhaps among others):

 

---Pits are, indeed, more dangerous than many other breeds are if they do attack, because of their impressive jaw size and strength and the instinctual bite-character which is to hold on for dear life once they grab something.

---Pits have been used for dog fighting now for hundreds of generations of the breed(s), and so aggression has been bred into the breed.

---Even if your particular dog was not bred for fighting, it may come from lines that were, and that kind of trait may be very difficult to breed out, especially in a fighty-type dog like a pit.

----Because of the internet everyone now knows everything that happens everywhere. For some people this unfortunately makes them want to have this "dangerous" breed, to show how tough they are, to look dangerous to other people, to guard their house, to stroke their ego, whatever.

This of course leads to a huge market for the breed, and indiscriminate breeding of litters not in any way carefully bred, which means that behavior problems such as aggression are not selected out and are in some cases selected for, by those who say they are breeding for "protection dogs", who then sell them freely to anyone with a few hundred bucks.

 

What I am trying to say here is that I truly do not think it is about the breed, inherently. It is about what human beings have done and are doing to and with the breed. They were not a problem a few decades ago, and now they are, and through no fault of theirs.

 

I think the whole thing is tragic, but most especially for the dogs, who don't ask to be bred the way they are or treated as they are, and who are the ones who suffer the most.


D'Elle

and family.

Left to right: Kit, Jester, Boo, Digger

 

 

Mydogs12-2013Smaller.jpg
"You gonna throw that?" --Jester:  2001 - June 24 2016. Remembered with much love.
"I'm grouchier than you are" --Kit

"I love everyone!" -- Boo

(Boing! Boing! Boing!)--Digger

And not pictured, Benjamin the cat, who thinks he is a small border collie with superpowers.

 

 

 


#57 Creiglowlady

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Posted 13 May 2017 - 01:10 PM

"  There are far too many good dogs in the world to risk keeping the biters around, let alone breed from them.  I don't care what breed it is. "
 
I agree with this sentiment wholeheartedly.
 
There is a thing that really bothers me about the pit bull and bully breeds issue.
 
When I was a kid ( and here, I date myself, but whatever), the "American bull terrier" was considered to be the All Around Great American Family Dog. They were in TV shows, in advertising photos, every block in the country had at least one family that had one. There was no hype about them being dangerous, just the opposite.
 
Now, I grew up in Canada, but the attitude towards the breed was much the same there, although there were not as many of them where I lived.
 
At that time, at least where I lived, the German Shepherd Dog was considered to be potentially a Dangerous Dog, one that you could not trust, one who could and would suddenly "turn on you" and become violent and vicious. Anecdotal stories circulated.  People were warned against them.
then, a decade or so later, it was Rottweillers that were considered to be dangerous-will-turn-on-you dogs.  Anecdotal stories circulated. People were warned. Then after that, it was Dobermans.
 
Now it is pit bulls.
The pit bull reviling phase has lasted longer and is more widely spread and has brought about more problems for the breed than any of the other phases with other breeds.
I think this is for these reasons (perhaps among others):
 
---Pits are, indeed, more dangerous than many other breeds are if they do attack, because of their impressive jaw size and strength and the instinctual bite-character which is to hold on for dear life once they grab something.
---Pits have been used for dog fighting now for hundreds of generations of the breed(s), and so aggression has been bred into the breed.
---Even if your particular dog was not bred for fighting, it may come from lines that were, and that kind of trait may be very difficult to breed out, especially in a fighty-type dog like a pit.
----Because of the internet everyone now knows everything that happens everywhere. For some people this unfortunately makes them want to have this "dangerous" breed, to show how tough they are, to look dangerous to other people, to guard their house, to stroke their ego, whatever.
This of course leads to a huge market for the breed, and indiscriminate breeding of litters not in any way carefully bred, which means that behavior problems such as aggression are not selected out and are in some cases selected for, by those who say they are breeding for "protection dogs", who then sell them freely to anyone with a few hundred bucks.
 
What I am trying to say here is that I truly do not think it is about the breed, inherently. It is about what human beings have done and are doing to and with the breed. They were not a problem a few decades ago, and now they are, and through no fault of theirs.
 
I think the whole thing is tragic, but most especially for the dogs, who don't ask to be bred the way they are or treated as they are, and who are the ones who suffer the most.


I whole heatedly agree and couldn't have said it better than you have. As my vet told me be careful who you get a dog from..if you breed an aggressive dog the higher the chances you are of getting an aggressive dog. I also don't believe it is fair what people have done to many breeds and do not blame the animal at all.

#58 waffles

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Posted 13 May 2017 - 02:07 PM

I can agree with you and thought it was interesting that they band the whole breed with success since in America they are everywhere. I also know it was not a trick question I was just finding it hard to pick what breed to be attacked by. Pitbulls are stronger but border collies are faster. But if I had to pick I would pick a border collie over a pitbull any day.

BSL is here in the US and in Canada as well.  It is well known and controversial.  Lots of information online if you are interested in learning more.

 

Hundreds of cities and counties in the US (plus military bases), as well as Ontario ban pit bull type dogs.  Many (most?) places in California have a mandatory sterilization of pit bulls. Places with bans have strict requirements for pit bull types that were already living there. 

 

If I remember correctly, more than 10 countries have full bans.  



#59 Creiglowlady

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Posted 13 May 2017 - 02:59 PM

Thank you waffles for the info. I live in California right now but have only been here for 2 years. I am from Nevada and had lived there my whole life prior to moving and I can say that for both states and I'm sure it's the same all over the world but it is very very hard to find anywhere that will let you rent a home if you own a pit bull or pit mix. I have worked with quite a few people that struggled with the issue because as soon as the owner finds out they have a pit bull they were told they could not rent to them just based off of their dog.

#60 simba

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Posted 13 May 2017 - 03:25 PM

Well said D'elle.

 

I would much rather have a staffordshire terrier coming at me in a savage rage than a border collie. Border collie seems faster, less likely to be under control, and just more frightening. I've seen more permanent scars from the one than the other, so that colours my decision. They just seem like they would do a lot more damage in terms of multiple bites.

 

 

Aside from that though it would go mostly on size. I would by far rather have a 28kg staffie go for me than a 36kg labrador.




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