vickim Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 My BC seems to hate Pit Bulls. First let me give you the back story: I adopted Whisper a little over a year ago. She is my second dog ever and my first BC (I was introduced to the breed many years ago by a high school friend and fell in love with the breed). I found her on an on-line site, drove four hours to meet her in person and brought her home with me. The people I got her from rescued her from a pound, who in turn picked her and her two pups up from the street. Thus absolutely nothing is known of her history. Their vet guessed her age to be two and half. I guessed her age to be at least four the minute I saw her. I know now from the grey on her muzzle and her very worn teeth (other things can cause wear, I know, so this is perhaps not the best indicator. Still, there is nothing at all left to the front teeth at all) and the way she moves (she is frisky as a young dog a lot of the time, but when she is done frisking she walks like it hurts. I've noticed she is hesitating a lot before going up stairs) that she is most likely somewhere between 7-10 years old. My own vet agrees with this. As I said, nothing is known of her history, but I can make certain guesses. Someone at one point docked her tail (She is some sort of mix, though with what, I don't know) and had her dew claws removed. From what I understand, this is typically done as a puppy. So maybe her first people cared for her. However, she came to me poorly socialized. She was full of fears--anything upraised scared her, hats on heads scared her, men scared her, uniforms scared her, anyone with an authoritative demeanor scared her. Whisper had no confidence at all. Luckily, everyone else in the house was gone for the week, so it was just her and me and the cat. After a time or two of trying to chase the cat (with a sharp "No!" from me) she learned the cat was not for chasing. Even now, the cat can walk up to her, bat her on the nose and Whisper might growl and show teeth, but will do nothing else. The week together allowed her time to get used to me and her new house, and with the few people that came in during that week, she got used to some people. I noticed her fear and instructed everyone to let her come to them. She was scared, but also curious. Once everyone came home, she had one scuffle with the maleRottwieler (sp?) of the house, but they settled their differences and seem to get along just fine. After a year or so, she is mostly over her fears, though in new situations she always looks to me for instructions. She will do just about anything I ask her to, once she understands what it is I want and she single-handedly has made me look like a genius of a trainer--and I'm not! However, my niece has a female Pit Bull and they fought. One second they were playing and the next second they were fighting. It was definitely Whisper doing the instigating. To stop that fight, we shoved them into the pond that was luckily right there. It stopped the Pit immediately, but Whisper would've gone on if I had not grabbed her. And in one of those pet stores you are allowed to take your dog into--she was ready to fight a Pit puppy (once once a Great Dane). And a freind has a male Pit Bull that for the most part Whisper doesn't mind, though she did have a couple of moments over the course of a weekend that she went to fight. Other breeds of dogs--especially submissive ones--don't seem to bother Whisper. The major problem is my step-son's dog, also a female Pit Bull. They hate each other. We tried acclimating them, and it worked until too many people were in the house (and brought another Pit Bull puppy--no one asked me if this was okay; I would've nixed this immediately.) poor Whisper was pushed beyond all tolerance. When the puppy dived-bombed me to play and I yelled in suprise, Whisper came to my defense. The son's Pit immediately leaped into the fray and Whisper ended up in the vet's office (the second time she's been stiched up by that dog). We keep them completely sperated now--don't even allow them to see each other, though last weekend my husband wasn't quick enough and Whisper slipped out into the room and the Pit pounced. This time we were able to stop the fight before it really got started (and yes, all three of us have bites from separating dog fights). They seem to take turns instigating the fights. I am, however, on pins and needles over the situation. Even though right now we are only all together on weekends, I dread the weekend--there could be a fight, and what if the next time is the time that Whisper ends up dead? I most certainly don't want to find Whisper a new home--I would be lost without her and i like to think she woud be lost without me,though that might be anthropormorphiszing a bit. While I would not have ever allowed a 16 year old to have a Pit Bull (at least not this 16 yea old--the breed can be a fine breed, but they need a LOT of work, and this one is not getting all the training she should be getting), I also can't ask him to get rid of his dog. I am already the wicked step-mother. Does anyone have any suggestions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweet_ceana Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 I am not sure if all BC's dislike pitbulls, but I do know mine prefers BCs over every other dog. It almost seems like she thinks all others are a little off and doesn't quite get how they tick. But when she sees a BC it is like she finds some who speaks her language. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurena Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 Maybe it's not so much that it's a pit bull just that it's another female . My BC loves other MALE dogs but will fight with other dominant female dogs .Just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shelb'smum Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 My Shelby favorite female dog is a pure bred stocky little pitty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fooshuman Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 My 3 seem happiest playing with other herding breed dogs as well. I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
painted_ponies Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 Yikes. I sure don't envy you your situation. I used to show chows for clients, and I know what it's like to live with several aggressive dogs who have to be kept separately or disaster ensues. No fun. Anyway, I don't think the breed's the issue (although I have noticed BC tend to be happier with other stock dogs, e.g. BCs, corgi's, ACD's etc). I think the issue is you have several aggressive dogs sharing space and dogs and people have already gotten hurt. The first thing I'd do is upgrade my security system. Doors will get left open, particularly with lots of people in the house, and I think you're right that another fight will most probably happen. Do you have separate fenced spaces outdoors? Crates? I'd find some way to make sure these dogs are not going to be accidentally getting together. That's my advice in the short term. There are people here who can advise on how to deal with dog aggression much better than I can. I never tried to solve the problems I had, because they were client's dogs who'd be with me till they got their points and went home. I just kept everyone separate. I would not be willing to live that way again - too old to be breaking up dogfights, and too cranky anymore to put up with anyone grumpier than myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sluj Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 Yikes. I sure don't envy you your situation. I used to show chows for clients, and I know what it's like to live with several aggressive dogs who have to be kept separately or disaster ensues. No fun. Anyway, I don't think the breed's the issue (although I have noticed BC tend to be happier with other stock dogs, e.g. BCs, corgi's, ACD's etc). I think the issue is you have several aggressive dogs sharing space and dogs and people have already gotten hurt. The first thing I'd do is upgrade my security system. Doors will get left open, particularly with lots of people in the house, and I think you're right that another fight will most probably happen. Do you have separate fenced spaces outdoors? Crates? I'd find some way to make sure these dogs are not going to be accidentally getting together. That's my advice in the short term. There are people here who can advise on how to deal with dog aggression much better than I can. I never tried to solve the problems I had, because they were client's dogs who'd be with me till they got their points and went home. I just kept everyone separate. I would not be willing to live that way again - too old to be breaking up dogfights, and too cranky anymore to put up with anyone grumpier than myself. I second the crate idea (as a backup for closing doors) for when other dogs are over. Also wanted to plug Patricia McConnell's books. She has several excellent general dog behavior books (other end of the leash, for the love of a dog), plus some short booklets tailored to specific problems (feeling outnumbered: how to manage your multi-dog household) that you may find useful. Granted that every dog is a bit different, I have heard several people say their BC didn't like boxers, with a possible explanation being that their smushed-up faces made them harder to "read". Maybe pitbulls have a specific body language that triggers her? Dsiclaimer: I haven't had much personal experience of this sort (knock wood) - not to this degree of aggression, so I'll just wish you luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClickMeBC Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 My guess would be it's the individual dog. A dog I rescued years ago was a Pit Bull/Border Collie cross, so I doubt it could be that all BCs hate Pit Bulls, but I know for sure that every dog has his or her preferences. One of my IGs immediately knows other IGs and loves them all, male or female. Otherwise, she doesn't put up with other females well - she barely tolerates them, but loves almost any male of any breed. I understand that dogs have senses that ours cannot even begin to compare to, but I still find it amusing that they can so easily define the differences between breeds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurena Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 I have found that my border collie , Heidi actually prefers bully breeds and other bc's over other dogs . I know my german shepherd hates rottweilers and dobermans , I guess the docked tails have something to do with it . I found Heidi is very territorial and generally only fights it there is toys , food or attention involved . Definetly keep them seperated and consult a trainer . Good luck with her . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Watch Debatable Posted March 31, 2007 Report Share Posted March 31, 2007 Lovebirds Sneak & Lulu: Bounce with Twig & Gray: I think the OP's situation has more to do with the individual dogs than with breed or gender. I'll echo what others have said: keep the fighters separate, manage them very carefully and consult a good trainer. For pit-savvy trainers, you might want to visit the BAD RAP site in my sig. They might be able to recommend someone near you. My dogs all get along with each other, but I never leave my pit bulls loose with the collies when I'm not home --- they're in separate rooms. Anyone who takes on multiple pit bulls should be prepared to keep the dogs separated forever, if need be. Heck, anyone with multiple dogs should be prepared for dog/dog issues requiring short- or long-term separation, IMHO. Link to BAD RAP's article on Living Peaceably in a Multi-Dog Home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bordercentrics Posted March 31, 2007 Report Share Posted March 31, 2007 I agree, its's far more about individual dogs than breeds. We had our two Bouviers before we got our Border Collies. Our male loves the Border girls and he's been extremely sweet to the foster dogs we've had in the house. Our Bouvier female, Jessie, can't EVER be loose with either Border Collie. She ended up hurting Meg when we first got her and let them interact, though we always were in the room and they were never outside together. We knew we had a choice. We could turn Meg over to rescue, put Jessie down, or keep them separated from each other. We ended up keeping them separated. It's a lot of work that involves closing doors and keeping someone in a crate when others are loose, but it's worth it to have Meg. Since we've had Jessie from puppyhood, we couldn't bear to put her down. She has too many issues to rehome. I've handled and photographed hundreds if not thousands of Pits at a local shelter as a volunteer photographer. Some are far too much dog for almost anyone, and some are sweet and deferential as a dog can be. The problem is that they are so powerful that they can do an incredible amound of damage if they are so inclined. Two Pits were just killed by police in Spokane yesterday after they had escaped and killed a cat and charged several people. I think that all Pit Bull owners have to be extra careful and extra responsible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted March 31, 2007 Report Share Posted March 31, 2007 I agree with the folks who have stated that this is likely an individual dog conflict, but since you know nothing about her life before you, it is entirely possible that she had a bad experience with a pit bull when she was young and generalized her fear to the breed as a whole. This happened to my Sophie--she was attacked by a couple of German shepherds as a puppy (not even attacked, really--it wasn't very intense, but it was enough to scare her puppy self), and since then she is suspicious of any German shepherds she meets. I'm not sure it makes any difference really, because the main problems you are having are with one specific pit--so it makes sense to manage the household as others have said and maybe see if you can desensitize/countercondition her to accept your stepson's dog (and she to Whisper)--try to change their emotions toward/around one another. In addition to anything by Patricia McConnell, I'd recommend Fight by Jean Donaldson--and find a qualified positive trainer or behaviorist with experience handling aggression cases. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Criosdaidh Posted March 31, 2007 Report Share Posted March 31, 2007 Sorry to hear about your situation. I to think its probably a battle of individuals rather than breed. How did the collie do against the pit bull? Can collies defend themself very well if they are attacked? I didn't know if their intelligence might make them adept at avoiding bad situations or injuries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WyoBC Posted March 31, 2007 Report Share Posted March 31, 2007 I don't know about everyone but Jack sure does prefer BC's over any other breed of dog. He'll put up with smaller labs (but not many) Aussies, beagles, and other mix breeds but he sure doesn't get along with them as well as other BC's. But he probably would get along with most of them if he took the time to get to know them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nancy Posted March 31, 2007 Report Share Posted March 31, 2007 If your new dog is an intact female and the pit bulls are female, that could be the problem. It's not for nothing that they are called bitches! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meg's mum Posted March 31, 2007 Report Share Posted March 31, 2007 I don't know if Meg hates Pit Bulls....I'm afraid of them so I don't let her near them. But she thinks that Malamutes are the very spawn of the devil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth G Posted April 1, 2007 Report Share Posted April 1, 2007 When Popcorn was a pup, he was jumped by a German shepherd pup, 1 month younger than him. Not sure if it has to do with this or not but I think so as it happened during a fear peroid. Now, he is not great with other dogs. He is submissive to females. But hates all unneutered males. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vickim Posted April 2, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2007 To answer a previous question--my Whisper has ended up in the vet's office twice now as a result of fighting for emergency surgery. The first time required about 100 stitches on the inside of one of her back legs (I know; I pulled them out. I can pull out stitches and while it's not her favorite thing, Whisper will let me do it) and the second time was only about 7 stitches--but a tendon was punctured and Whisper was in a soft cast for a week. (I was told to keep her quiet for two weeks--and you all knowhow hard it is to keep a BC quiet--after two days she mastered getting around with the cast and was ready to go) She has a very slight limp now. The Pit in question was never even seriously injured--some minor puncture wounds which did leave some scars, but other than that, nothing major. She does seem to have a thing against other female dogs--this past weekend a houseguest came in with two dogs; a female dog of indeterminate lineage and a male Pit. Whisper was snappy toward the female dog (but only near food and when it came to attention-getting. I made sure to feed all four dogs at the same time, and in seperate rooms and made sure to pet Whisper as uch as the other dog) and mostly unreative toward the Pit. Both of the other dogs were submissive types--the Pit was used as a bait dog (a topic for another thread--I am no fan of Pit Bulls, but no dog should be used for fighting for entertainment). And the poster with Bounce and twig--that white Pit looks exactly like my stepson's Pit (named Blaze)! Vicki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexie Posted April 2, 2007 Report Share Posted April 2, 2007 A couple silly ideas and I'm new at this, but could you ask house guests to leave their dogs outside or keep them leashed when Whisper is around? Something to give her a chance to feel a little safer and a little more "this is my turf"? I am grateful when people don't mind that we bring our BC pup along to things, but I'd be happy to leash her or put her in the car in a shady spot or just leave earlier than intended if it made things uncomfortable for the dogs that belong there. I realize step-son isn't in that category, but what about talking to the kid's in-house parent about giving the stepson some sort of course-with-the-dog as a present? Something that will give the dog a good activity and more training but not totally offend people who think it is a good idea for him to have a pit bull. Also perhaps the two could alternate crate times or in another room times so both got fair treatment but were safe. Separate play times, etc. Just a few thoughts that I could come up with. Rebecca Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat W. Posted April 2, 2007 Report Share Posted April 2, 2007 Quick question you dont state whether you son lives with you or not. If NOT I think the best thing to do for the saftey of all canines and humans alike that the sons girl stay home. IF he lives at home then you have to go to DEFCON 2 and constantly be on alert the girls cannot be trusted together. This might not be a breed thing but a territorial thing from what I am reading Whisper was in the house first and then your son accquired the pitty. Are both girls spayed? If not I strongly suggest it be done asap. Bitch wars can be a messy ongoing affair Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LJS1993 Posted April 2, 2007 Report Share Posted April 2, 2007 You know I think many times it's a situation of simply too much dog for anyone to handle. I cannot comprehend why someone would want to deal with the amount of conflict which arises when too many dogs are in one living situation. Why not focus on a couple dogs who are well adjusted with each other rather than 3,4,5 etc.... constantly having to be crated. This reminds me of a friend of mine who somehow felt his three Rot's would absolutely love his two Beagles. This novel idea ended up in one dead Beagle and the other paralyzed from the waist down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vickim Posted April 2, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2007 Both girls are indeed spayed. The step son lives with us part-time right now, but as soon as we make the move, he'll be with us full time. On weekends he goes up with us, we keep the dogs on sperate floors, and switch them off so each dog gets to spend time with the family in the living area. The Pitt whine at the basement door to be let out, and Whisper gets a crushed look on her face when I shut her into her room. Yes, Whisper came to the house first (well, the old house--we sold it and now rent until we can get moved to the new house and the step is living with his mother right now). One day the stepson came to live with his dad and me (at the old house, until we sold it) with his dog in tow--no warning what so ever. I would've not allowed the other dog to come. Honestly, I think he is too young for a dog, especially one that needs so much activity. I have no doubt that he loves his dog, but he also wants to go out and have fun, like any kid would. He makes no arrangements for the care of his dog; he just assumes someone will take care of her. Which is true enough, no one is going to let that dog starve, and is probably typical behavior of a 16-year-old, but not the behavior of a responsible dog owner. I've tried menitoning the training idea to both the stepson and his dad--his dad thinks its a waste of money, and the kid doesn't want to spend the time doing it. I think that the Pitt would be an excellent agility dog, or maybe a high-jumper, and have suggested it, but it's like talking to a brick wall. Another typical teen-ager reaction (I shudder to think that I once acted that way), I know. Keeping the dog at his mother's house when he is with us won't happen, for a variety of reasons that I can't go into here--this is a public place and I don't want to post that kind of personal information. I do think I'll try the crate idea. Neither dogs likes the crate, but if it keeps them safe, then it will be worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark F. Gross Posted April 4, 2007 Report Share Posted April 4, 2007 Tasha cant stand pits, labs, boxers, huskeys and Am Staffs, but gets on well with heelers, aussies, and especially with other BCs, regardless of gender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark F. Gross Posted April 4, 2007 Report Share Posted April 4, 2007 tasha cant stand any of the bully breeds, labs, boxers and huskeys, but gets on well with heelers, aussies, and especially other BCs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karrie Posted April 4, 2007 Report Share Posted April 4, 2007 You have your hands full. As for the crates and dogs not liking them. Put them in the crate with a kong( treat stuffed) or other nice treat. You can also feed them in the crates. With a little work you can get them to willingly go to crate. If 16 yr old isn't responsible enough and this dog needs training ( and she isn't getting it), what about you taking her to classes? You could do both dogs just at different times. Is Whisper the alpha dog? Some of the others can explain the alpha dog better than I can. I just follow some of the advice I've received in the past and it works for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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