Ludi Posted November 2, 2014 Report Share Posted November 2, 2014 Hello again, We've just come back from our second lesson after taking a year off from sheepdog training. It went alright! The sheep were particularly unwilling to co-operate with us this morning, so things were a bit rough, smoothed out in the end. Lady has switched from favouring come-bye to away now in her absence, or so it appeared to us. We're just doing little tasks to boost her confidence now, a little bit of driving the sheep alongside me into the working pasture, moving them off the fence line, then some flanking practise. One "exercise" that seemed to have Lady stumped was trying to encourage her to move past the balance point on her flanks. Lady tends to want to get in really close, and I think I read somewhere that when a dog takes its flank in these exercises, the sheep shouldn't be moved off where they are. When I stay behind her shoulder and push her out with my arm (this goes a lot easier on the away, as I mentioned) she is fine. But if I don't stay right up on her shoulder, she'll go to the balance point and try to come in. So far I have asked for a lie down when I see her head turn in at the balance point, and she complies right away. But to get her to move past it, and keep flanking, is another story. I asked what the point of this exercise was, as I am curious, and apparently it is to show the dog that when you ask for a flank, and do not issue the command to stop or walk up on to the sheep, they should continue the flank. And for whatever practical reason, like having to move the sheep during chores. Also, it apparently helps her to maintain her speed on outruns, however small, as she won't anticipate stopping at the balance point and slow down as she approaches it. So, we will keep working on getting her to give some breathing space on her flanks, but when we come back to this issue, is there something I can be doing to encourage her to go past the balance point? No amount of arm flapping, shushing or other noises got her to move past it, as if an invisible wall existed there. [E] Found a link to an old (11 years!) post : http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=12159 - this more or less describes our exercise, and a possible solution. Is it applicable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxi Posted November 2, 2014 Report Share Posted November 2, 2014 Yes.. there is an 'invisible wall' stopping your dog.. it is her instinct and natural talent telling her to come in at the balance point! There are many ways to train a sheepdog and the method you are being taught is very successful for some people. I was originally trained in a similar fashion by someone who regularly gets 2 dogs into the National trials and has also represented his country in the International. but I now use a different approach and thought I would add my own thoughts so that you did not think that your dog is actually doing anything wrong. if I understand your post correctly, your trainer wants your dog to continue flanking at speed (no matter what else is happening) until you say "stop there". As said, I was originally taught a similar approach with my own dog. However, I personally found that this method pushed her out of contact with the sheep & stopped her looking at them. As I progressed and wanted to work my dogs on open moors & hills, I personally found this 'obedience approach' counterproductive because it stopped my dog believing that she could think for herself . Instead it relied almost completely on my own judgement about what to do with the sheep.. and because I had so little sheep sense at the time, I often made mistakes &/or did not react fast enough to the situation. Now when I train my dogs, I work much more with the dog's natural instinct. So I WANT my young inexperienced dog to slow down as she approaches the balance point & then come in steadily on balance as she carefully lifts her sheep (In fact, I think I would love to have your dog ). I want this engrained into the dog so that it is her default behaviour and she will know to do it even if I don't give her any command (obviously I would push her on or out if she was stopping too soon or coming in too close before she reached the balance point). Once the concept at coming onto the sheep at balance point is completely engrained into my dogs, then yes I use a method similar to the the link I see you have just posted as an edit to push my dog further round. I think that the method would also work for the approach that you are taking, but in order to keep your dog flanking smoothly at speed you may find that you need to put more pressure (ie point towards your dog's head and shoulder) to push her out &/or remove some of the recommended stops. good luck. Obviously this is JMO and YMMV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludi Posted November 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2014 Yes! That is the exercise he wanted me to try with Lady, but I had some reservations about it. I could see its merits, especially given that Lady has been a sticky dog reluctant to give space since the beginning. She definitely must learn to bend out on outruns and to respect the sheep's bubble, for sure. I see her tendency to turn her head in as she approaches the balance point, and she definitely pushes them off position despite just doing a flanking exercise. But we're taking it easy, in baby steps! I just wondered if this exercise would prove to be particularly difficult in the long run. Right now it certainly does feel like I'm fighting instinct and nature. She takes her eyes off the sheep and looks at me as if to say, "Woman, I'm obviously right where I need to be, so why would you ask me to do that?" W.r.t. pushing her out more, I thought of using a teaching aid like a stick to flick out (obviously not at her!) to catch her eye to get her to give space. Winter is approaching and I'm not sure I'll be able to flap my arms and be as mobile when I'm all bundled up - bit of a wimp with cold temperatures hehe. Lady is a soft and sensible dog so I do not see the need to use it too often, perhaps just at the start to be an easy visual reminder? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxi Posted November 2, 2014 Report Share Posted November 2, 2014 You probably don't need to flap your arms about -in fact you may just be confusing your dog with this. Instead just use the stick to point at her head as it starts to turn in or hershoulder as it starts to drop. If necessary take a step or two towards her. To help her move round you can also use your other hand (without a stick) just behind her bum...almost 'pushing' her on. If you move in the same direction as she is going, then the balance point will change slightly, this will also encourage her to continue to move round. As she goes past the original balance point, you can also try pivoting your body round in the same direction and also move your hand and arm ( as if you were pushing water backwards when swimming the breast stroke..if this makes sense) so it encourages her to continue to follow these on round. ETA I know it is an expensive but Julie Hill's Natural Way book does have some good exercises on what to do with a dog that comes in too tight on its flanks or pulls up too soon on its out run (IMO its better than the DVD because there is much more detail about how to deal with different problems that you may run into.Also the pictures & diagrams help show you how to use your body language and where to position yourself). .. I'm sure there are also other books/training out there that deal with different problems you may face with your sheepdog training. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEC Posted November 2, 2014 Report Share Posted November 2, 2014 ...Yes.. there is an 'invisible wall' stopping your dog.. it is her instinct and natural talent telling her to come in at the balance point! ... Now when I train my dogs, I work much more with the dog's natural instinct. So I WANT my young inexperienced dog to slow down as she approaches the balance point & then come in steadily on balance as she carefully lifts her sheep (In fact, I think I would love to have your dog ). I want this engrained into the dog so that it is her default behaviour and she will know to do it even if I don't give her any command (obviously I would push her on or out if she was stopping too soon or coming in too close before she reached the balance point). Once the concept at coming onto the sheep at balance point is completely engrained into my dogs, then yes I use a method similar to the the link I see you have just posted as an edit to push my dog further round... Well said. For a young dog like Lady do not do anything to mess with balance. "Engrained" and "default" are perfect words for the instinctive balance you want. IMO everything builds from it. Much later in training you can do off-balance commands. Anything done now to continue a dog past balance, should first involve a stop balanced to the entire field. My dog and I did ad nauseam balance exercises with our first instructor, and I don't believe we did those because she had a weakness. Literally years later I am beginning to be thankful for his drills. Balance is the foundation of a dog's ability to use its own initiative when the situation dictates. Most handlers do not have the stock read a dog has, nor its reaction time. Initiative should be developed/molded. I use a stick (for initial training of a hard maneuver or to quickly refresh it, I attach a small flag) to push-out or to encourage continued flanks. As Maxi suggests, a stick will help Lady bend wider at the top as she reaches balance, and you might consider teaching a "out/get out/get back" type command. Those have helped Josie and me considerably, and are conventionally utilized cues. You have an instructor, and hopefully he/she does not feel threatened (as some do) by polite, respectful conversation about suggestions relayed from informed handlers. Clearly diplomacy is the key. You are there to read personality, and the extent to which he/she is amenable to outside ideas. A good one will encourage conversation, and admire your interest and research. The first clinic I attended when Josie was a baby, the chain-smoking instructor would light-up and lean on the fence, encouraging everyone's input on a difficult dog. As I recall, I was a little put-off by her openness, and had little to say, but in retrospect she seems like the perfect trainer. I am pleased that Lady has matured, and that you are both enjoying continued training. -- Best wishes, TEC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxi Posted November 2, 2014 Report Share Posted November 2, 2014 Ludi Reading your later post again, it seems to me that from your description Lady may be sticking BEFORE the balance point. It is important that you get her to understand that she needs to get to the proper balance point (this is the position where she will lift the sheep so that they will come to you in a direct straight line - the actual position of the balance point will vary depending on which way the sheep are facing and the direction that they would like to go assuming that there was no dog present). As she starts to slow (but before she stops), you need to give her a shush and push her head out by pointing your stick at her head.. Also be very prepared to move yourself. If you are sending her to the left (come bye) Lady starts at 6 o'clock and you need her to get to 12, then once she has started to move, you need to also move in the same direction.. perhaps to the 8 or even 9 o'clock position. However, you must NOT get 'in front' of her outrun so that you block her line with the sheep. If you do this, it will encourage her to stop sooner. Remember also, if you move further round, thenn she also needs to continue round so that she still balances the sheep to you (as you have moved round this may be at ~ 2 or 3 o'clock). Hope this makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludi Posted November 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2014 Yes, she is turning her head in before she reaches the balance point and if she makes eye contact, i.e. a ewe has decided to turn round and challenge, she will definitely stop (upright) and her eye sort of hypnotises her. She's much better with being broken out of the trance with shushing than she was a year ago. I do try to anticipate it but I'm a novice and I do not yet have great predictive timing. Working on it! Usually, to get her to move at a decent pace on her flanks I will "accompany" her in the same direction - we're usually more at a 90 degree angle from each other, which opens up to 180 at the desired balance point once I keep her from sticking, if she does. Once I had her giving a bit more space with staying at her shoulder to keep her out, she was settling in at balance very easily. It seems that making her give way (or keeping out, which we do have a command for thanks to frisbee practise) has two benefits - ewes are happy, so Lady remains fluid in her movement and doesn't stick. I definitely know the dangers of clipping her on the outrun! I've miscalculated or not seen a ewe turn its gaze on to Lady and cause her to stick, and overshot my position. My trainer is very understanding and even my limited French sheep-vocabulary seems to be doing the trick in conveying my ideas and thoughts. I am glad to have restarted at this farm in particular, because our previous training grounds was with someone incredibly meticulous, precise, and definitely "my way or the high way". Which I respect, but I believe their way was not suited for a dog like Lady. I guess for now, then, our goal is to attain a fluid approach to the balance point, wherein she doesn't stick at 10 or 2 because a ewe caught her gaze. It seems I can solve this problem by making her "get out" more, as it seems the sheep trust her more when she keeps her distance. Hopefully I'll be deft enough at timing stick movements so she bends out properly. With a dog like her, should I try to avoid forced lie-downs when I see her bend in, and simply use a "ah-ah"/"get out" voice input + stick movement? I am afraid that by asking for the down she will be even more hesitant to pick up the speed. Should I work on an upright stop? I do have "stand there" but she isn't 100% on it, unlike her down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxi Posted November 2, 2014 Report Share Posted November 2, 2014 IMO Never ask a young sticky dog to lie down (or even stop), its better to heep her moving & flowing (walk-on at a steady pace). Personally If the dog has a lot of eye, I only add a stop later on in her training but If you really want her to stop, then yes a standing stop is better than a lie down for this kind of dog The sheep can also become mesmerised by her eye & both can end up freezing. If there is one ewe in particular who is confronting her, the best thing is to remove it from the packet, especially while she is still learning to balance properly. Look for clues and "tells" that Lady is about to stick, maybe dropping her head or inner shoulder slightly or starting to move her head in... or you may see her eyes become that bit more intense. These subtle signs will signal to you, that you need to act to pre-empt her sticking. It can help if you can have someone video your dog. If you do this make sure they get as much of the whole picture as possible - the minimum is the dog & sheep, but also preferably with you in the frame as well. Watch where she sticks and then work backwards to look for the first specific "tell". The sooner you can identify the very first action that she makes before she stalls, the best chance you have to keep her moving on because you can react to the situation earlier. (if you can get you in the picture, look carefully how all your movements effect her subsequent actions) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludi Posted November 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2014 My husband is very co-operative with recording training lessons on his phone so I will take advantage of it. A pity he did not record today, as he was babysitting our other dog. I have a feeling I do know the signs, as I have learnt to read Lady's body language for other dog sports and general manners. I just have trouble acting on it the moment I see it! I guess I hesitate and when I do, she can stick. When people say to lie the dog down and then ask for a flank as a means of correcting a dog who slices in, it makes me feel a bit bad to say "No, I shouldn't with mine" because I feel like I'm disrespecting teaching methods. But I have come to realise that one size really doesn't fit all and I did my dog a disfavour in the past by not standing up for what I think would work for her. Not that it should be too much trouble to do so, but I am afraid of sounding like a know-it-all novice in the presence of people who've seen and done it all. I have to do it though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxi Posted November 2, 2014 Report Share Posted November 2, 2014 There is a huge difference to a dog that rushes/slices in to the sheep and one who slows down because of his eye. I completely understand that you don't want to sound like a 'know it all' but IMO I dont think that most experienced trainers who have worked with different dogs, would ask a young sticky dog to stop. I also fully appreciate that when starting out, it's difficult for the novice handler to see the problem, mentally process what has happened and then act on it all before the situation has gone completely haywire. I've been there and most definitely have done it. Things can happen very quickly when working with dogs & sheep . Yes of course I still make mistakes, but the more I learn, the less frequent they happen and the faster I can respond and sort out the problem. Speeding up your own response time is all part of the (steep) learning curve...but being able to see and identify those early signals (either from the dog or the sheep) that tell you something is about to go wrong will give you that extra second of time to act. When it comes to sort out a problem nothing really beats experience..but the more you see, the more you will understand. Remember that every dog is different. It seems from your posts you have good understanding with Lady. Watch your dog's body language and listen to what she is telling you. Also watch the sheep and spend time learning what they are telling you. They will indicate if Lady is making them uncomfortable and this will let you know that you need to push her out further. People can give advice, but at the end of the day it is you as the handler who needs to discover what works for you and your dog. Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludi Posted November 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2014 Yes, exactly! I think next Sunday I'll have to be more forthcoming with my thoughts on what will and won't work for my specific case. You've worded my worries perfectly. I have so much respect for the other handlers and my teachers, being so new to all this I sometimes think, pff what do I know? But then I think, I'm the one who's seen Lady work the most, so I should know her well enough to make some decisions in how I train her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludi Posted November 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2014 Just a little check-in, yesterday Lady and I went to work and this time we had some lovely Blackfaces mixed in with the flock of usual East Frisians. I would say it was around 20 head of sheep total. Using the stick to push her out (coupled with the command "Get out" which she already knows) worked really well! Her flanking is quite beautiful (for her standards) on the Away side now. She's much more free-flowing and loose-eyed than she was before. There were even a couple moments that she over shot and went past the balance point, but she caught herself and corrected her position right away. I'd take that over getting stuck and staring! She is still a touch prone to sticking on the Come Bye side, so we will keep working at it. But since I want to build her confidence, first and foremost, I indulged her a bit with some really nice, mini-outruns on the Away side. I really wish I could have recorded our session to show you all! She gives such a nice amount of space and lifts the sheep ever so quietly from their grazing spot. I was surprised she didn't arc inwards on the outrun and push them off their set point before fetching them. Note: we haven't really worked on outruns at all, to her they are just huuuuge flanking orders. This coming Sunday is a more formal session where I will probably be able to get someone to record us. I hope to show you all what we have been working on, and hopefully have pointers on how to move forward. For now I'm so happy to have my happy, honest dog back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEC Posted November 10, 2014 Report Share Posted November 10, 2014 I am really pleased to hear of your and Lady's success yesterday. I am sure no more so than you. Good going. -- TEC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxi Posted November 10, 2014 Report Share Posted November 10, 2014 It sounds brilliant... well done to both you and Lady Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted November 11, 2014 Report Share Posted November 11, 2014 Way to go! J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted November 11, 2014 Report Share Posted November 11, 2014 Sounds lovely! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsmbc Posted November 11, 2014 Report Share Posted November 11, 2014 Congratulations on your progress! I have been working on the same thing with my young dog! lot's of good advice here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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