Naughty sheep training

[Jumpin Boots]

I have had sheep longer than a sheepdog, and a few if my older girls seem to be uninterested in being worked and have instead come up with ways to make things very difficult on my young dog and I.

 

They are both fine when we are doing practical work, penning them in the trailer to move, holding them in a corner or pen to medicate/trim or moving them from one pasture to another.

 

The stubbornness appears when I go to training. Ewe 1s tactics involve running like a speeding ping pong ball and bouncing from one fence to another. It does not matter how far off Timber is, she takes off like a shot. Leaving rest of the sheep in a confused pack behind her. So we've been seperating her off and just working the other ones.

 

The second ewe, which is in a different group of sheep, will work fine, until we get with sprinting distance if a group of trees they like to sleep under. Take a hard turn for the trees, take cover and flop to the ground! If I send Timber out to cut her off and bring her back she is fine until she see's her next opportunity. If she makes it to the flopping area, then I've just encouraged him to keep working the others and ignored her.

 

I do not feel like they are being over worked, stressed or harassed. I sort if feel like they are just bring little spoiled, princess brats. Any other ideas? Do I just continue separating them off? I would appreciate suggestions. Thanks

[red russel]

if i was working a relatively young dog just beginning to help him understand his job i would probably just sort them off so my dog and i could have success and learn under optimal conditions. trying to help a youngster understand flanks or begin to drive while frick and frack are making like a banana and splitting all the time can be a real pain. the ewes become a distraction from the real goal.

 

if i'm working on making sure my dog is responsible and leaves no soldier behind then i absolutely leave them in the packet. keeping things short and with a clear picture of what success looks like. i don't want to have my young dog try to hold mutinous sheep for a long time. get a hold, take control, them let them go on your terms. every dog will eventually get beat if the mutineer is determined enough.

 

this seems common with bottle babies or sheep that have been tamed. we keep telling our clients that if they tame a sheep they better take it home with them because we will be eating it much sooner than the sheep that act and react like sheep.

[TEC]

I find that entire small packets of sheep, or 1-2 prima donnas, can sour over the course of a training session. Often nothing you or your dog could do to change it. The regular troublemakers influence the others. For the sake of a good work, I do the same as red russell.

 

Once a dog makes a mistake, or a few within the group finds a weakness, sheep will continue to take advantage. This may not be your situation at all. Merely mentioned because I encounter it. Often the flaw they have found is exactly what I am training to correct. At that point in the session I believe it is best to: 1) move on to another exercise to which the sheep react properly, 2) let the ring-leaders desert, 3) switch-out for fresh packet or go home. For me, sheep are good teachers, but I am not always happy with the score.

 

Loading stock trailers and vetting in a corner -- you and your dog are doing some good things -- Kind regards, TEC

[Sue R]

I don't have sheep and am not very knowledgeable but I would choose to continue to separate if this was my situation. You want to set your dog up for success, particularly in the earlier stages of training. Just as much, you do not want to "reward" your difficult sheep for their behavior by allowing them to get away with it. In addition, that behavior could be observed by the others and influence them.

 

Once your dog has skills and experience, more challenging sheep are another story but some sheep are unsuitable no matter what (like the Ping-Pong ball, maybe?), frustrating even the best of dogs and eventually maybe adversely affecting the suitable sheep. The split-for-the-trees-and-take-a-nap sheep is one that Timber seems capable of taking care of *if* the timing is right and he can catch her, so that can be a positive for his confidence, but I wouldn't want that to be a failure except perhaps occasionally. If he is successful often enough, she might improve with time but I don't know as I'm very ignorant about sheep.

 

I know that with our cattle, some can be problematic but if they fail several times at their "tactic", they oftentimes tend to abandon it and become more cooperative because they learn fairly quickly that they won't be successful. Your two trouble-makers have already learned that they are successful (or the first one's maybe just crazy) and so they will repeat the behaviors until they learn otherwise.

 

Best wishes! I envy you having sheep to work!

[Gloria Atwater]

I also recommend separating off those two sheep. Once they learn those sour behaviors, it can be pretty nearly impossible to break them of it, unless there's a trained dog who is capable of disabusing their sheepy notions. But most importantly, they won't give your young dog any sort of fair chance to learn, plus they can teach other sheep their bad habits.

So, I'd say leave them back and carry on without their conniving little selves. Everyone will be happier for it.

~ Gloria
P.S.
I doubt it's anything you did - some sheep just don't play well with others.

[Jumpin Boots]

Thank you all for your feedback. I will plan on continuing to separate them off, unless we are doing something practical. I do find it rather conniving that both of them work great when they are being rotated to new pastures, what manipulative ewes.

 

Loading stock trailers and vetting in a corner -- you and your dog are doing some good things -- Kind regards, TEC

Thank you TEC. Proud mama brag real quick I had two ewes in a group of 6 that had to be sheared and we were able to hold them in a corner, I walked in, got the ewe I needed, brought her out and put her on her back, sent Timber to drive the others off and then dbf called him out of the field. Sheared the ewe and then repeated for the next ewe. It was one of the highlights of the summer for us.

 

It's interesting how the practical tasks are so much easier in many ways than 'training sessions' I know what the goal is, which I sometimes can't decide during training and he seems to really enjoy finishing a task. Probably because I'm more clear and relieved when the task is over.

[TEC]

 

 

It's interesting how the practical tasks are so much easier in many ways than 'training sessions' I know what the goal is, which I sometimes can't decide during training and he seems to really enjoy finishing a task. Probably because I'm more clear and relieved when the task is over.

Isn't that true. I have heard that repeated over and over. What is it? I agree clarity of purpose and the fact tasks have definite starts and finishes have a lot to do with success. Also, work is about the sheep, and we as handlers have a different relationship with our dog during those times.

 

You do the foundational training, and for me anyway, much goes well, and other times somewhat discouragingly. Yet real work comes along and BAM, your dog is on, listening/understanding, responding to everything. Love those dogs.

 

Good job Timber. -- Kind regards, TEC

[Smalahundur]

I agree.

 

A couple of weeks ago my selected training sheep (had not started training with them) were kept on the same land as three of my rams.

Decided to split them as I wanted the sheep not the rams planning to put them in the stable and pull the rams out of the group.

But as I send Gláma to fetch the group I noticed the rams being slower/heavier than the sheep a gap occurred.So in a more or less a spur of the moment decision I decided to split the group "on the fly".

I called Gláma into the gap, looked at the ewes, told her "these" and as she (understandably) seemed to want to gather the rams too, "no not those".

Though the sheep did not want to leave the rams we managed together to keep them apart and drive the sheep to the stables. Success!

 

I realized we had actually performed our first shed (admittedly not a very difficult one but hey, a shed!)

 

I had never "formally" taught Gláma to shed before. But in work the "I want these sheep not those" situations had arisen.

 

Oh yeah, on topic, I agree with previous posters also, get the trouble makers out asap.

[dsmbc]

I would also separate out the two trouble makers. it will make training much easier for your young dog.

 

I terms of why real work seems to go different, in my very un-expert opinion, I do think we as handlers have a very different way we approach work as opposed to training that makes sense for the dogs and the sheep.

 

I know that when it is real work, I am very clear about what the job is, I don't care so much about perfection, only that the job is done, and I approach it matter of factly and I am focused on the sheep and trust my dogs to do their jobs. I think for my dogs, the job makes sense to them, they clearly understand what is expected. it is not that way in training for me at least.

[Jumpin Boots]

Timber has a fair amount of eye and tends to come forward on his flanks. This summer when I used him to load the trailer for the first time, he lost the sheep twice because of these steps forward. He would come forward too much on a flank and they would go shooting out the other side right past him and down the pasture they'd flee. It took two major escapes and a few near misses before he was using the softest open flanks I've ever seen him have. It was really neat watching the gears turn and his change in demeanor. It's just amazing watching what these dogs can do.

[Maxi]

Is your 'ping pong' sheep a primitive breed like a shetland?

 

I agree with the others about leaving both her & the 'lie down, I'm not here' ewe out, at least initially while your young dog gains understanding & confidence about gathering, flanking & driving sheep.

 

However, personally once the dog has grasped the basics, one of the exercises I do is with the sheep against the fence - with me near them. I ask my dog to flank at some distance so that the stock are not disturbed. I then ask him to walk slowly onto the ewes.

 

At this point, I actually want one of them to attempt to flee (and this is where 'ping pong' may come in handy because you can almost be certain that she will make a bolt for freedom) and I want my dog to instinctively move and turn her back to the rest. I want him to do this without any command for me (i.e use his initiative). Not only that, I want him to learn to do this without a grip and without a tail flick - though obviously it may take several sessions before he does manage to do this with a calm mind. So I use lots of encouragement when he does things right combined with gentle corrections for the wrong attitude (and more assertion if he tries to grip).

 

I find that the dogs really enjoy this task. It also helps teach them how to control their eye and exert the correct amount of pressure to hold the flock together. It also helps as an initial exercise for learning how to pen sheep.

 

With regard to using work to train the dog. I also completely agree. Once my dog hasgot past the initial stages (balance, short outrun, lift and fetch) I often set up simple 'work scenarios' to help with training.

 

So maybe I decide that for the exercise today we are going to put those sheep through a gate. I break it down into elements. I first work on the gather, lift and fetch, watching for correct flanks etc. then a short drive to the gate (with a young dog this will be with me walking with him &/orthe sheep). I ask him to hold the sheep at the gate with the correct amount of pressure so I can open it and then let the sheep through without the dog attempting to bolt after them.

 

I try to make sure the dog is doing each element correctly and if necessary repeat each bit a few times to make sure he grasps what I want. . At the end of the session, I put the whole exercise together and if I am feeling confident that he understands the task, I will also try to do as much as possible with minimum command.

 

After the session has ended I think carefully about what bits need improving & I focus more on these the next time we do the exercise.

 

Because we are doing different things in the session it is definitely more fun for both the dog & for me, and because there is an overall 'job' to do, the dog gets to understand why I am asking him to do each element. So for me (and probably my dog) the training session feels more 'organic' and less like repetative rote learning.