What age to start training?

[mum24dog]

Apologies for a question that must have been asked many times before but what age do you guys start training your dogs on sheep and, to avoid misunderstanding, what do you mean by "training"?

 

I may do some sheep work with my pup and his breeders say they don't start before a year old but I have seen videos of pups being introduced to sheep very much earlier. Going there for lessons is an option - journey time about 75 mins.

 

On the other hand I have just been watching a video where a 12 week old pup is introduced to sheep and the commentary implies that training in earnest will not be too long in the future, certainly before 12 months. The video is of a local trainer and a client.

 

The second trainer is only 15 to 20 mins away and I like him personally.

 

Both trainers have international trialling experience and are well known here.

 

I may change my mind as agility is the prime aim for my pup but all options are open at present.

[Maxi]

Your pup needs to be sufficiently mature - both mentally & physically. Mentally to deal with the pressure of training (from the sheep, the situation and from the handler) and physically to be fast enough to be able to get round the sheep. . The actual age will vary with different dogs.

 

It's always nice to see if a young pup of 3-4 months is already turned on to sheep and to watch what natural instinct they have as they move around stock. But most trainers would not consider that they are old enough at this point to start training properly. I usually start mine at about 7- 10 months, but then each training session is for just a short time (5-10 minutes) and only about once a week. If they seem too young, I'll let them mature more.

[mum24dog]

Thank you.

 

At 16 weeks my pup has today quite understandably been mistaken for a lurcher. Obviously he needs to be less weedy before we consider whether to give it a try. I don't think speed is going to be an issue.

 

As a fellow Brit you will understand why I don't want to see if he will turn on to sheep unless I am intending to take the training further. Too dangerous giving him the idea that sheep are to be chased.

[Debbie Meier]

Dropping a pup in to see what it will do and while in there you might guide it a little or let it know that something like chasing is not the greatest of ideas, please try something else is far from actual training.

 

When you get into the more formal training, where the dog learns the commands, is expected to exhibit self control and obey your usually talking closer to a year or so on average. A few will be able to handle the requirements earlier and a few will need even more maturity. Rule of thumb for many is right at about a year.

 

Now if your using the dog at home and letting it pick up small farm related tasks you may see the pup providing useful work and picking up on the commands quite a bit earlier.

 

I have some 11 month olds that we have given a couple of lessons to, evaluated how they handled the requirement and put them back up, they didn't quite show the maturity yet to handle training pressure. It's amazing how fast they will come along though, once they are mentally ready.

[Maxi]

As a fellow Brit you will understand why I don't want to see if he will turn on to sheep unless I am intending to take the training further. Too dangerous giving him the idea that sheep are to be chased.

Yes, I fully understand.however, if he has a strong working instinct, he may just get turned onto stock anyway!

 

I get the impression from some of your other posts that you live in quite a rural area. So even if you decide not to train him to work sheep, you may still find it useful to go to a trainer who can help you teach your dog to control his instinct around stock.

 

The advantage of doing this with a trainer is that you get the opportunity to show your dog what you require in a controlled situation (rather than leaving it until you may 'unexpectedly' meet a sheep when on a walk).

 

ETA In my experince, one of the main lessons a stockdog has to learn is how to be calm around stock. So training a dog to work sheep actually tends to stop them 'chasing' sheep. YMMV

Edited October 24, 2014 by Maxi

[GentleLake]

Don't forget that many people advise to start a dog on sheep before starting agility training.

 

The reason for this is that stock work requires more independent thinking on the dog's part, while agility (or obedience, rally, etc.) requires the opposite and you don't want your dog looking to you for direction all the time on sheep.

 

This doesn't happen all the time, but it happens often enough that many trainers will ask you to consider what your goals are for the pup and train accordingly.

[mum24dog]

Yes, I fully understand.however, if he has a strong working instinct, he may just get turned onto stock anyway!

I get the impression from some of your other posts that you live in quite a rural area. So even if you decide not to train him to work sheep, you may still find it useful to go to a trainer who can help you teach your dog to control his instinct around stock.

The advantage of doing this with a trainer is that you get the opportunity to show your dog what you require in a controlled situation (rather than leaving it until you may 'unexpectedly' meet a sheep when on a walk).

There's no unexpected about it. Sheep are expected round every corner.

 

My thinking in buying a working bred dog was that it would give me a good chance of getting a dog that can be controlled amongst sheep - with proper training of course.

 

I've known too many randomly bred dogs that have the instinct to chase without the necessary self control. We struck lucky with our rescue collie in that he would rather have a ball than pay attention to sheep but I wouldn't trust him with sheep at close quarters. I'm not going to risk getting him shot.

 

My pup certainly ought to have working instinct from his breeding but I don't know if he does. He spent a week back with his breeder while we went on holiday and spent time accompanying chores and watching sheep intently, but made no attempt to chase, but these were well dogged grazing sheep, not sheep in motion. I've had the same reaction (or lack of it) myself.

 

It's no big deal if he doesn't want to work. That's not what I got him for. On the other hand, we have a wealth of good training opportunities within very easy reach so it will be easy to give it a try.

[mum24dog]

Don't forget that many people advise to start a dog on sheep before starting agility training.

 

The reason for this is that stock work requires more independent thinking on the dog's part, while agility (or obedience, rally, etc.) requires the opposite and you don't want your dog looking to you for direction all the time on sheep.

 

This doesn't happen all the time, but it happens often enough that many trainers will ask you to consider what your goals are for the pup and train accordingly.

 

Yes, I understand that. Similar to the way I have temporarily shelved formal obedience training in favour of the relative independence I need for obedience.

 

I do appreciate that the ability to get a good outrun, for example, could be compromised by training for sports that require closer control. Working trials wouldn't be too bad but there are few opportunities to train and it's a sport that has too many training dinosaurs.

 

Then again, a late friend took up trialling with her agility dogs when she was in her 70s and did OK. They were well bred from working lines though and maybe their genetics shone through.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Mum24dog,

 

The best way to be sure your workingbred Border Collie won't suddenly take after sheep is to train it on sheep until you have stock control. Young sheepdogs often take off on their own after sheep until they have the basics. They're freelancing.

 

Your strategy is sound and I'll wager you'll enjoy stockwork. As a geezer I'm grateful that the dog does all the running.

 

Donald McCaig

[mum24dog]

Dear Mum24dog,

 

The best way to be sure your workingbred Border Collie won't suddenly take after sheep is to train it on sheep until you have stock control. Young sheepdogs often take off on their own after sheep until they have the basics. They're freelancing.

 

Your strategy is sound and I'll wager you'll enjoy stockwork. As a geezer I'm grateful that the dog does all the running.

 

Donald McCaig

 

As a geezeress I have to have a Plan B if agility gets too much for me and flyball won't fill the gap for more than 5 mins. Obedience maybe just a little longer but not long term.

 

I just need to find time for a new challenge.

[Mark Billadeau]

what age do you guys start training your dogs on sheep and, to avoid misunderstanding, what do you mean by "training"?

We have tried pups around 6months; where tried is where we take them in with sheep to see if there is interest and how serious they are about the sheep. This is not training. As long as they are serious about the sheep and are moving correctly around the sheep we may allow them to do this periodically (for short sessions of about 5min). Once they are no longer correct around the sheep we wait until they are mentally ready for the correction necessary to make them understand how to be correct around the sheep. There is not set age for this. It depends upon what will be necessary to make the proper impression on the individual dog and what the dog is able to handle (based upon personality). IMO it is better they get no sheep time as opposed to getting sheep time where they are developing bad habits.

 

I've had one dog that was ready to train at 5-6months; most were ready at 8-10months.

[red russel]

Total agreement with Mark. Just an extension of the thought. I started a pup at about 8 months with things going great until I saw some tension building at about 13 months. Pup had changed and was no longer able to manage the corrections required. Or I was not able to make my corrections as he required... either way I wasn't getting the result I was hoping for... a calm, thinking pup. Put him up for 5 months to allow him to mature and started again at 18 months. Lovely dog. Held onto everything we had before our hiatus and coming along now wonderfully. They tell us when they are ready to go, or not, if we are willing to listen.

 

dave

[Maxi]

They tell us when they are ready to go, or not, if we are willing to listen.

 

dave

So true.

[Ludi]

This is just my experience as a true novice to sheepdog training - my BC had her first experience to see instinct on sheep at 6 months, with the rest of her litter. We were told she's keen, she would make a good, patient worker, so we were told to keep at training. Lady looked "ready" to take instruction. But she wasn't. She quickly wilted as more and more pressure to perform was applied on her. All my trainers were people I respect, who regularly trial and *all* were owners of their own farm flocks. But their method, their assessment of my bitch just wasn't correct in the end.

 

We took a year off after her 1st birthday. We're starting from more or less scratch now, which I find extremely fortunate. My dog bears no lingering resentment from having pushed her before she was ready. Her father was already trialling at one year of age. My dog doesn't yet know her flanks at 2.5 y/o. Maybe if I were a better handler she'd be more on her sire's timeline than mine, but there you go.

[mum24dog]

Thanks for the advice