The dog that will not come.

[deadlywarbler]

It's been a while since my last post up here. My BC pup is 1 year-old is doing very well is almost every regard. Smart, sweet, fun, great with people, dogs and no bad habits. Outside of the one issue, her recall, she seems like the perfect pup. I could gush about how much I love the dog, but when it comes time to call her when I need her, she manages to drive me insane.

 

I've read all the posts about recall and read the books and general theory. No punishment or negativity on recall, no repeating yourself. I've been working on recall since she was 8-weeks old and have never made any headway. I admit to my shortcomings (over-using the word "come" or not properly reinforcing the recalls) but she seems to have the whole things figured out. When we are out walking, she will come back to me without hesitation, but when we are at the house, she will stand out in the driveway staring at me and will not budge when I say "come". Big surprise, she's figured out that play is done and doesn't want it to end.

 

I have started her on sheep with a few local trainers and it's the same thing. She is doing brilliantly in almost every single way except for the recall (calling her off). She will completely blow me off when I saw "That'll do" and dash in at the sheep (she never dives in after then except when I say "that'll do".

 

So, I'm looking for solutions and I'm trying to wade through the confusion of all the different training perspectives. The sheepdog handlers have a much stricter perspective than the trainers I've talked to. I'm afraid that somehow the dog doesn't actually respect me. The only advances she has made in sheep classes where when the trainer got in the ring and really got after her about any bad behavior. Do I need to be harsher with her? That goes against everything I believe in with training. Is it just a matter of going back to square one and trying again, because if so that sounds daunting since she has all the tricks figured out (treats, play, enthusiastic reinforcement).

 

The other small concern is the ball. I admit she is a ball dog because we play everyday and it's her most reliable exercise form. I am worried that it also is breeding behavior that I don't want. Could ball obsession be playing an issue? I'm eager to hear your perspectives. Thank you!

[Shetlander]

How would ball obsession play a part in her lack of recall, unless she is ignoring a recall to chase a ball? And if you feel she is truly based obsessed, do you put the ball away when you are not playing fetch?

 

On the subject of the recall, one major thing you want to start doing right away is not let her continue to ignore the recall and self reward doing so. That may mean stopping the sheep lessons until she has a reliable recall. Talk about a fantastic payoff for ignoring you. And if there is a problem during fetch, I would put a long line on her to get hold of her quicker. At home practice recalls that don't mean the fun will end. Do a recall. Praise and the reward is more play.

 

You do need to go back to square one, but this time you need to make sure she doesn't self reward and that you are very consistent not just with rewards but negative consequences. I don't know about needing to be harsher with her, but it sounds like you need to be firmer and your expectations much clearer.

 

To me the recall is the most important command, one that could be a life saver. It is worth putting as much energy as the dog needs. Some dogs are more challenging than others. I probably worked five times as hard with Quinn as any of my other dogs to get a solid recall. Your girl is only a year with a lot of maturing and hopefully a lot of years ahead. You don't want to have this issue for the rest of her life. Maybe you could work with a trainer you are comfortable with. I find an outside perspective can be very helpful and also supportive when addressing a chronic problem. Good luck!

[GentleLake]

^^ This.

 

I would add that when you go back to square one, you start with a totally new cue that doesn't have any association with her getting away with not complying. It doesn't matter what the word is. I could be "sauerkraut." It just should be completely fresh for her.

[simba]

A new cue, a long line, and high-value food rewards have really helped my dog.

 

 

Tricks are a lot easier for a dog than a really consistent recall- so don't be disheartened!

[deadlywarbler]

How would ball obsession play a part in her lack of recall, unless she is ignoring a recall to chase a ball? And if you feel she is truly based obsessed, do you put the ball away when you are not playing fetch?

 

On the subject of the recall, one major thing you want to start doing right away is not let her continue to ignore the recall and self reward doing so. That may mean stopping the sheep lessons until she has a reliable recall. Talk about a fantastic payoff for ignoring you. And if there is a problem during fetch, I would put a long line on her to get hold of her quicker. At home practice recalls that don't mean the fun will end. Do a recall. Praise and the reward is more play.

 

You do need to go back to square one, but this time you need to make sure she doesn't self reward and that you are very consistent not just with rewards but negative consequences. I don't know about needing to be harsher with her, but it sounds like you need to be firmer and your expectations much clearer.

 

To me the recall is the most important command, one that could be a life saver. It is worth putting as much energy as the dog needs. Some dogs are more challenging than others. I probably worked five times as hard with Quinn as any of my other dogs to get a solid recall. Your girl is only a year with a lot of maturing and hopefully a lot of years ahead. You don't want to have this issue for the rest of her life. Maybe you could work with a trainer you are comfortable with. I find an outside perspective can be very helpful and also supportive when addressing a chronic problem. Good luck!

Thank you both! I can see the path to starting over with her and re-reinforcing the new command, starting small in the house and gradually moving outward. The part that I have a hard time with is correcting her for not coming. I can't have her on a long line all the time, and sometimes I need her to come to me but she's so far away and if I try to walk her down, away she goes. I've tried more firm wording but she doesn't respond. The ironic (and completely frustrating thing) is that I can put her in a down most of the time in those instances, but if I try to walk to her she bolts. Makes me lose my mind!

 

Regarding the ball, I think the play is training this position in her that I'm starting to not like. The position is her standing 15' in front of me and staring at me (the same position as when she will not recall). I'm trying to train her to be at my side for the ball to be thrown, but she's not getting it. I do a definite "all done" and the ball goes away, but often she'll just find some other object to drop at my feet, or she'll just ignore me there after.

 

It's at these times that the countless hours that I've put into this dog seem to have lead me nowhere. Frustrating.

[kingfisher7151]

I have a few ideas of what I'd do, other than the above information which would also be essential.

 

She has clearly made the connection between "come" and all things fun and good coming to an end. I'd try to make a recall a fun game in itself. Many dogs LOVE to chase their people. I'd find a friend to help you with an exercise where they hold her while you run like a fool enticing her to come chase you. Ideally she'd get really amped up by being held and wanting to chase you. Then when she's released while you say the recall word and the recall becomes extremely rewarding for her. I think the recall has to be made out as the Best Thing Ever rather than I thing that she just has to do. Yes, it really is the thing she has to do, but until she wants to come there's really no way you can force her to do so. Then you can make it mandatory.

 

I'd utilize the ball drive if it were me. Some people hate fetch and all things like it, but I think it can be an incredibly useful training tool. But before it can be used to affect her recall she needs to learn the parameters of the game. Does she heel? I'd make sure she knows how to heel, and the ball gets thrown when she finds the correct position. I would incorporate that to help eliminate the 15 ft away staring game. Mine played it too and I wanted to make sure fetch was a game with me, rather than a game with the toy. Once that is established I'd set up the game so that she has to listen to a recall every time before the ball gets thrown. This way is another extension of the "recall means good things" game.

 

You obviously have worked very hard and have gotten quite frustrated. Don't lose heart, it can certainly be retrained!

[Shetlander]

The thing about the walk down is the first time (or two) can really go on for quite a while before the dog gives in. If you give in first, it wasn't a walk down but a game she won. The next time you try a walk down, you need to have the time and patience to outlast her.

 

These dogs are smart, but we have the opposable thumbs . Right now it seems she is self rewarding even after you say all done. She either brings you a different toy (hopefully, you do not play with her at that point) or she finds a different way to amuse herself. If she was dragging a long line, "all done" for not listening would mean "game over, we are going inside young lady" and you remove her from the self rewarding environment.

 

Actually, you can have on a long line all or most of the time *right now* while you are working on this issue. As long as she CAN get away with ignoring, she probably will continue to keep trying to do so. Intermittent reinforcement is the best way to strengthen a behavior, whether you mean to or not.

 

Also, firmer doesn't just mean your voice. In fact, I try to keep my voice as upbeat as possible when calling a dog. You can be firm and very quiet, even pleasant, as you are consistent in your responses and management of the dog. Use rewards, consequences, repetition and do not allow your dog to practice unwanted behaviors.

[TEC]

One year old is young to expect a good recall off sheep. Work on recall at home while concurrently training her recall on sheep.

 

To train a recall from sheep:

 

1) Be sure the sheep are settled both to your satisfaction and to your dog's. Perhaps you could have her fetch to you against a fence-line or into a corner. It can be done in an open field, but the key is that the sheep are together, calm, and not moving about excessively -- settled. Watch your dog's demeanor, and from that you can determine whether she is happy with the situation,

 

2) Once they are settled, check to be sure that the dog is balanced to you, the sheep, and field. As you may know, with no strong draws to contend with, balance is often at about 12:00 o'clock. Otherwise it could be off 12:00 somewhat, and

 

3) Having your dog in a down/stop on-balance at a reasonably appropriate distance from sheep, immediately walk through sheep directly toward your dog quietly repeating "lie down", if need be. As you pass her, pat your leg (seems to send a universal message to dogs) and cue "that'll do" in an upbeat voice. As she turns to follow, clip the leash on. After a few repetitions, the leash may not be necessary, and she will follow you off the field.

 

Mix up the training so that your dog does not conclude the sheepwork will always have a long pause or end on the "that'll do" command. Sometimes walk through the sheep, call her off, have her follow to an appropriate distance for a short outrun, and finish with a fetch to you. Repeating that a few times is incredibly rewarding to a dog, and you should see an improvement in recall from sheep.

 

Use only slight variations of that scenario for several weeks or months, until it is nearly perfect, and then start varying the situation to make it just a little more difficult. Begin varying your position, but continue assuring that the sheep are settled, and your dog is in a stop or down. IOW, try calling her off from a circumstance that is not quite balanced.

 

While training recall, never try to call a dog off while the dog and sheep are moving, or when they are not settled. That can come later.

 

I have seen the above described in numerous books, and portrayed in videos. It is used at clinics and by many trainers. It works. It is commonly used.

 

Don't get discouraged, and don't let that phrase, "Your dog doesn't respect you" eat at you. It is usually offered with the best of intentions, so it is difficult to snap back with something pithy. Nevertheless, to me it is the most ridiculous phrase a dog trainer could use. Do not let it creep into your consciousness. Replace it with learning dog training techniques. A dog doesn't recall because of lack of respect. It has a poor recall because it has not been properly trained to have a good recall. It's that simple.

 

Harsher corrections? A loud, low pitched, and well timed verbal can be effective. A handler's positional pressure works very well. A well timed line tug can be good. Beyond those few, and I begin to have my doubts. I would try to avoid harsh correction, unless it works right away and has lasting effect. Of course, never abusive. You do not want to get into steadily escalating corrections that are not working, and may end-up being counterproductive.

 

Good training sets your dog up for success, as described above. Reward successes with praise, and frequently allow your dog back to work sheep, of course always on your terms. -- Best wishes, TEC

 

PS - You might consider developing a secondary phrase to tell your dog that you are taking a long break, or he/she is done for the day. I use "that'll do" to tell my dog to leave the sheep and come to my general vicinity, and be ready for another command. She is still paying attention to me and the sheep. When I am done for the day, or taking a long break, I notice a completely different and relaxed demeanor in my dog when I follow "that'll do" with, "all done". This distinction has worked well for me.

[deadlywarbler]

I'd utilize the ball drive if it were me. Some people hate fetch and all things like it, but I think it can be an incredibly useful training tool. But before it can be used to affect her recall she needs to learn the parameters of the game. Does she heel? I'd make sure she knows how to heel, and the ball gets thrown when she finds the correct position. I would incorporate that to help eliminate the 15 ft away staring game. Mine played it too and I wanted to make sure fetch was a game with me, rather than a game with the toy. Once that is established I'd set up the game so that she has to listen to a recall every time before the ball gets thrown. This way is another extension of the "recall means good things" game.

 

You obviously have worked very hard and have gotten quite frustrated. Don't lose heart, it can certainly be retrained!

Thank you! She does heel and does so really well. With the ball, she heels directly in front of me and I admit I've been slack about this. My question with the "correct position" game is: do you ask her to get in position or sit and wait for her to figure it out? I would be waiting a LONG time if it's the latter because she is the queen of staring.

[deadlywarbler]

One year old is young to expect a good recall off sheep. Work on recall at home while concurrently training her recall on sheep.

 

To train a recall from sheep be sure the sheep are settled both to your satisfaction and to your dog's. Perhaps you could have her fetch to you against a fence-line or into a corner. It can be done in an open field, but the key is that the sheep are together, calm, and not moving about excessively -- settled.

 

Once they are settled, check to be sure that the dog is balanced to you, the sheep, and field. As you may know, with no strong draws to contend with, balance is often at about 12:00 o'clock. Otherwise it could be off 12:00 somewhat.

 

Put your dog in a down/stop on-balance at a reasonably appropriate distance from sheep. Immediately walk through the sheep directly toward your dog quietly repeating "lie down", if need be. As you pass her, pat your leg (seems to send a universal message to dogs) and cue "that'll do" in an upbeat voice. As she turns to follow you, clip the leash on. After a few repetitions, the leash may not be necessary, and she will follow you off the field.

 

Mix up the training so that your dog does not conclude the sheepwork will always have a long pause or end on the "that'll do" command. Sometimes walk through the sheep, call her off, and have her follow you to an appropriate distance for a short outrun, and have her fetch to you. Repeating that a few times is incredibly rewarding to a dog, and you should see an improvement in recall from sheep.

 

Use only slight variations of that scenario for several weeks or months, until it is nearly perfect, and then start varying the situation to make it just a little more difficult. Start varying your position, but continue assuring that the sheep are settled, and your dog is in a stop or down. IOW, try calling her off from a circumstance that is not quite balanced.

 

While training recall, never try to call a dog off while the dog and sheep are moving, or when they are not settled. That can come later.

 

I have seen the above described in numerous books, and portrayed in videos. It is used at clinics and by many trainers. It works. It is commonly used.

 

Don't get discouraged, and don't let that phrase, "Your dog doesn't respect you" eat at you. It is usually offered with the best of intentions, so it is difficult to snap back with something pithy. Nevertheless, to me it is the most ridiculous phrase a dog trainer could use. A dog doesn't recall because of lack of respect. It has a poor recall because it has not been trained to have a good recall. It's that simple.

 

Good training sets your dog up for success, as described above. Reward the successes with praise and frequently allowing your dog back to work sheep, of course always on your terms. -- Best wishes, TEC

 

PS - You might consider developing a secondary phrase to tell your dog that you are taking a long break, or he/she is done for the day. I use "that'll do" to tell my dog to leave the sheep and come to my general vicinity, and be ready for another command. She is still paying attention to me and the sheep. When I am done for the day, or taking a long break, I notice a completely different and relaxed demeanor in my dog on the cue, "all done". This distinction has worked well for me.

This is great advice, thank you! I love the idea of doing little "that'll do" exercises but just repositioning her for more work. That makes perfect sense. I appreciate your advice on the frustration end of things. I was livid at her this morning, but i know that doesn't do any good, so I'll keep my attitude positive and starting making this recall thing fun. I'll need to change my approach though because I've been working at this for the better part of a year and she's still completely unreliable. Frustrating!

[ourwully]

My Juno is just over a year and her recall is pretty good but I am also working on another type of recall. I got this suggestion from CMP and it is working well to this point. Every day when I know she is in a place where the recall will work for sure I use a whistle. I only use it a couple of times a day and I always use a high value treat (hot dog pieces usually). This is my secondary recall so I am in no hurry to complete this part of the training. When I started it was just from a few feet and I tried to make sure that she associated the whistle with something really good. People have suggested a different cue so this could be an alternate cue. I am a quiet person and I don't like yelling so I find the whistle really good when Juno is in the woods at a distance. I've only used it a couple of times when I can't see her but so far she has come every time. Sometimes she comes like she has been shot out of a cannon. By the time Juno is a year and a half I am pretty sure that she will be really reliable on the whistle. The one thing I was really careful with was making sure I only blew the whistle when I was almost sure she would come. Now that we have been at it a couple of months I take a few more chances but at the start I made sure there were no failures.

Good Luck

Bill

[alligande]

Another training game that seems to be fun for dogs is pass the puppy, can be played with 2 or more people. One holds the dog while the other has food, or toy and becomes the most exciting person ever, release the dog to person #2. You add your command once you are sure the dog is coming... You can play in the yard, out on a walk, it's a fun game, with no stress and does seem to make a difference.

Having them chase you for a toy or food is another fun game.