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#221 Dixie_Girl

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Posted 05 February 2006 - 07:36 AM

I do not understand, really why it so hard for people to understand what the big deal is here. Especially people that have had BCs longer than I have. Maybe because I am such an avid reader and it has been 10 maybe 8 yrs. since I first saw BCs working sheep at a trial in Lebec CA, and since then I have read as much as I could on the breed. I also have always had a dislike for the AKC. Some is from what I have seen them do to breeds,,,,,what they consider makes a "good" dog. Maybe it was instinctual.( :rolleyes: ) You wanna know how underhanded the AKC is? Go to their web site. Click on ANY breed and they will tell you all about their conformation standards. Click on the BC and they will, at first, go on and on about the dog needing to "do it's job on the farm". They will even say that "honorably" obtained scars and broken teeth are NOT to be faulted. Since they are WORKING dogs. They are making it as easy and welcoming to get real ranch/farm dogs in as they can. And like the woman who took in the cold almost dead snake and nursed it back to health, then the snake bit her and she couldn't understand it after all she had done,,,,,,the snake said lady, you knew what I was when you took me in. The AKC is like the snake. It looks benign,,,,,it seems to understand what the BC is,,,,,,,but on another thread people are discussing size of their BCs and some would be rejected, according to AKC.....oh yeah,,,,they "know" BCs. Like I said before, NAME ONE SINGLE BREED IMPROVED BY BEING INVOLVED WITH AKC. You can't. There isn't one. Why would ANYONE think they will be different with the BC? The BC is good at all the other sports because of its gene pool in working BCs. If you can not see that NO ONE has said that letting BCs do agility or flyball, or just hanging out, is wrong, only that the BREEDING of BCs FOR that reason is wrong. That letting intact breedable BCs into the AKC is wrong. I don't know how else you can be reached. The AKC is simply dieing to get their hands on as many BCs as possible. Why? If the dogs are running an agility course sponsored by AKC, why can't they accept their listing with ABCA as proof they are pure bred? If they are SO interrested in keeping pure breeds pure, as they claim on their site, why won't they leave the ABCA alone,,,,seems like ABCA has been doing a damn fine job keeping them as they are meant to be. Keep asking yourself these questions. Eventually you will see. It is a slippery slope we are on now. If everyone who loves this breed does NOT pull together, we will not defeat the AKCs efforts to do to the BC what they did to the poodle, etc. Then it will be a very small group that will remain "pure" and then there will be desperate inbreeding and then 50 yrs. from now, people will be showing off their BCs in all its foo fooness and saying, you know I read where these dogs actually hearded a bunch of nasty ol sheep around. But my little darling wouldn't do that would you? And the little BC will sapply lick her face,,,,,thinking, gee I hope she rubs my belly. Maybe in his dreams he will once again herd sheep,,,,,,,and maybe in ours, we will remember what a great dog they WERE.
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#222 CoRayBee

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Posted 05 February 2006 - 08:06 AM

Well put, Dixie Girl. I think, though, that after over 200 posts on the subject, if people's minds have not yet changed they never will. You can warn some folks until you are blue in the face but they are either too misinformed or too stubborn to get it. :mad:

You are absolutely right- after all the quotes and research and emotion has been taken out of the discussion, let's make a list of breeds the AKC has improved.
..................?
Can't name any, sorry.

I have just two words for all those people out there who insist on entering their dogs in these beauty contests- "German Shepherd."

..and bobh, man alive, you sure showed us. Thank goodness there are enlightened, open-minded folk like you out there to show the rest of us the way!! I was happy with a physically sound, PRA-free farm dog that has never seen the inside of a show ring. Boy howdy, I guess I was wrong! Posted Image
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#223 AK dog doc

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Posted 05 February 2006 - 08:14 AM

bobh, don't get your shorts in a bunch. Finn didn't pee on Sparky the Aussie because he thought she was worthless - that's a human distinction, and not one an 8-month old puppy is capable of making, even a BC. He peed on her because he thought she was really something and thought maybe he'd let other dogs know he was claiming her. (She's a gorgeous bitch, and extremely athletic, so perhaps he was influenced by my admiration for her as well.) I thought he'd die of excitement when he met her. For the record, SHE was not offended by this behavior, and I'd wager she (as a dog) was more aware of the social nuances of this than any of us will ever be. She was well aware he'd urinated on her (since he peed on her bib), and her response was to paw at him to play after he "christened" her. He's since relaxed his views (no longer a hormonal adolescent, and more sensible about his crushes) but that was an expression of admiration, not dimsissal or contempt.

I think you're misunderstanding the attitude of many of the posters in this thread in a similar way. As Zip and Ace point out, it's not about "peeing on" (in the way a human would understand that) the other activities. It's about understanding that "herding as much as time permits" and "my dog's parents work the farm some" (how much is some?) are not adequate amounts of stock work to determine what's a a breedable dog in the first place, and what's a good combination in the second. Not trying to be harsh, just trying to shake the arguement out another way, in order to clarify. Not one person here has said that agility is worthy of contempt, or that agility handlers are stupid, or anything of the sort.

Back to Mark's statement about it taking a handler 10 years to become competent in Open... before I took my dog to stock, that was what I guessed it would take me. After, I figured that it would take me 10 years only if I could go more than once a week. Otherwise I figure it would take longer. At least I was aware that a lot of the subtleties were being lost on me, and that those take time to pick up. Having made my living in the horse industry, I can tell you there's a learning curve on the subtleties of "horse sense", and it just takes time in the saddle (so to speak) to get the language of horses down. It works WAY faster if you have daily exposure.... not just because you have 7 days of it in a week as opposed to one, but because the additive effect accumulates exponetially faster if you don't have time to forget in between. So if it takes 10 years (minimum) to be competent on stock, should you not wait to breed a stock dog until you are competent to do so? If the answer to that is yes (as I personally think it is), any dogs currently in your hands are going to be past breeding age (if still alive, even) by the time you're ready. If you collect and store semen, you can still breed the male after he dies, if you want to. But the female's ship will have sailed by then. Just the sad reality.
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#224 sandra s.

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Posted 05 February 2006 - 08:53 AM

Dixie_Girl, thanks for explaining. I've been wondering for a long time why the AKC breed standard description on their website sounds so harmless, and why they seem to allow so many variations even though the actual "barbie collies" all look alike.

#225 Shetlander

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Posted 05 February 2006 - 10:26 AM

Originally posted by Eileen Stein:
Liz, I think he was emphasizing that the basic knowledge of what to do with livestock is (must be) inbred in a good border collie, whereas the basic knowledge of what to do with agility equipment is totally not inbred -- it all comes from training.

Ok. I can follow that much at least. I do see instinct at work in dogs and not just Border Collies. 7 week old bird dog puppies that go on point in response to a pheasant wing, for example. Thanks for the explanation.

Perhaps because sports and working people come at things from different angles, the communication doesn't always seem especially clear. I'm sure strong opinions and emotions make it a challenge at times. This is also true within dogsports in general and agility specifically. Some Obedience people resent and put down agility. Some agility people put down dogs because they're not BC's or because they are (because BC's are so "easy" and a cop out).

I don't know if top agility people say that also, but I do think there's a tendency in dogsport people generally to discount what we say about the complexity and indispensibility of good breeding in a working dog, just because it's not as big a factor in dog sports.

I've never heard high up agility people saying they can make any dog a winner, though with their talent and skills they may be able to get a lot more out of certain dogs than other handlers. I can't imagine there are many with that mindset or there would not be so much thought, effort, time and money that goes into finding the "perfect" agility dog. My guess is dogsport people don't fully understand (or don't believe?) how much the working aspect affects a BC's ability to do agility.

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#226 Lunar

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Posted 05 February 2006 - 10:47 AM

"I have just two words for all those people out there who insist on entering their dogs in these beauty contests- "German Shepherd.""

Would you mind explaining that? We have a GSD, so I did a good bit of research on the breed last summer after we got him. GSDs are still bred/used extensively for schutzhund/police dog work, which IS what they were bred to do originally (as far as I remember). Now I can't remember exactly, but I don't think they are the same lines that are shown in AKC. Schutzhund is very big especially in places like Germany, and the breedworthiness of a dog is dependent on its schutzhund titles, not any AKC foofy titles it may have. But the AKC has definitely *not* improved that breed at all! (I'm not disagreeing with you, I just am not sure what you meant by it. )

I find the border collie/herding/breeding discussion interesting, because I'm constantly arguing with my husband about it. Now my husband does not like BCs, so obviously he has no such desire to preserve the breed, nor does he understand the important job they do at farms. But he sees breeding only the best of the best as some form of elitism, humans "playing god," and he doesn't get it. We've gotten into many, many discussions over it, and I am completely unable to get him to see my point of view. Personally I think he takes it like a personal insult to his dog(s) that they're not breed-worthy. (And we're not talking about BCs here.) He starts snarking about how "what, should only the smartest humans procreate?" And in many, many ways I think that dogs deserve more respect than they are given - I treat my dogs like a part of my family. BUT they are still dogs, and it is our duty, our responsibility, to care for them - not just as individuals, but as a species, and as a breed. Without very specific, selective breeding domestic dogs would not exist, much less the different breeds. And without that same selective breeding we will end up losing a large part of that. Now granted I don't think it should be done as some kind of experiment - some AKC breeder websites I've come across gave me a very large impression that they saw their dogs as some kind of experiment in color, that they had no use for the pups who didn't fulfil what they wanted out of the breeding. It's a fine line, I think.

I love my dogs so very, very much, Oreo has been my baby for 10 years, I dedicated a huge chunk of my life to her - but I would NEVER have considered breeding her. I know that just because *I* love her and *I* like her traits does NOT mean that she should be bred, or that they would even BE passed on. I'm rather perplexed by people who feel this need to breed their dogs out of some desire to get more dogs just like them, or because they naively think their dog is great. I love my dogs, but I do not think they are perfect and will admit their shortcomings. Oreo can be a doll, but she can also be a grouchy, over-protective, fear-biting bitch. I love her anyways, though. :rolleyes:

Sorry, I'm babbling.

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#227 Howdyjabo

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Posted 05 February 2006 - 12:26 PM

Roseanne--

I think you are missing the main points here.

Has any breeds integrity been maintained when bred outside its original purpose? NO

Is there any reason why your dog should be bred at all???? In my mind no

Where did you get your original dogs from???

Most likely they were well bred herding dogs.
Or an immediate offspring of well bred herding dogs.

I see nothing wrong with competing. I would be tickled with your accomplishments. But you have to understand that when you try and reproduce the same dogs without the herding background you are going to miss little pieces of the puzzel somewhere along the line-- its inevitable. And these are little pieces that you too will end up missing having in the next generations.

If your dogs are so great at what they do-- and obviously were bred with the right stuff to do what you want--- Why are you not just going back and getting your new dogs off the same lines.
They have already prooven themselves-over and over and over.

That is how-- the agility people can continue to support the working bred dog that they depend on.
You don't have to play with herding- to come up with some kind of proof on your dog.
Someone already has the background and experience to give you exactly what you need.
why try and create it again yourself.

What is so awful about giving credit where credit is due--- Livestock people created this dog for you to USE. Go back to them and say "Thank God" you were here and bred what you have bred/that you know what you know. I want another one to make sure that you stay here- and that this breed stays intact for generations.

Thats a great way to support the Breed--- Buy ABCA- register it with AKC IF YOU HAVE TO. Then go back to ABCA and buy your next one. You don't have to dual register(I am sure ABCA will drop the papers for you). And you don't have to buy dual registered and you don't have to breed any dog with AKC papers to get a quality dog to compete with.

The fight comes in when the breed and the breeders are not given the respect due them . If you try and simplify the process-- you will end up simplifiying the dog. We know that-- so we can't let you hide in your comfort zone. Its the breed that will end up paying. Too high a cost for any of us- and it should be for you too.

Is ABCA perfect??? #### no-- will it ever be perfect??? sadly no. Is it the best game in town??? YES

Can you find what you need for ALL uses of Border Collies in the folds of ABCA ? Yes
Will you be able to do it for generations ? Yes
Will you be able to find what you need in ABCA in a hundred years? Thats questionable -- and the answer lies in your hands .

#228 bobh

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Posted 05 February 2006 - 01:37 PM

EILEEN , I WISH THAT ALL THE PEOPLE THAT TALK OF PROtecting the BC would do more than talk about it .
i donot see anyone doing anything to protect the bc .Iam not against ABCA as a reg. but when one sugests that we limit the amount of breding or the amount of litters .or sugest that all ABCA dogs be sold with the understanding that if you dual regester we will sue you for $10000.
No one steps up to the Plate .
Yes certain Individuals will not sell to sport people If they plan to dual regester. good for you!!!
Look on the web talk to Breders ,When I looked for my boy I told the Breeds that I will not breed my Bc but I do plan to do agility including AKc and no one said they would not seel to me . I only work 3 days a week all my dogs go every were I go . wehike we swim we do sheep some times . when my wife and I go on vacation the dogs come with us , We feed our dogs we take them to the Vets . We do NOT let them run out the door and get Killed . We do not Rehome them because they are not the best herding or agility dogs . They all live in the house.
I agree with the ABCA position on the Bc but It seams that Littel is realy being done to protect the BC . It must be my fault because i do AKC agility with a neuterd dog .
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#229 Rebecca, Irena Farm

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Posted 05 February 2006 - 02:08 PM

ARe you an ABCA member bobh? Are you letting all the directors know your views? If you are a member then the ABCA is YOU - it's member owned - and you are railing against yourself. If you are not a member then there's problem #1.

I don't get why you think that the only ways to approach the problem are the ones YOU suggest. I assure you the directors carefully consider this issue all the time. So does the USBCC, to think how it as a club can help with the problems. New advancements are made all the time and will continue to be. "Protect the bc" is such a vague goal. What do you expect EXACTLY? If you figure it out and can verbalize it, let your directors know and do what you can on your own to forward that goal. I know I want to see in the future (dual regstration banned) and I'm letting the ABCA directors know how I feel and I'm actively working toward that end in my own small way.

Get involved, Bobh, if you feel that strongly about it. Support GOOD breeders as Karen says. Encourage others to do likewise. Educate people about what Border collies really are.
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#230 Eileen Stein

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Posted 05 February 2006 - 02:23 PM

<< EILEEN , I WISH THAT ALL THE PEOPLE THAT TALK OF PROtecting the BC would do more than talk about it . >>

Okay, you're talking of protecting the BC, what have you done?

Frankly, all I'm getting from your posts is generalized griping and indignation, and an unwillingness to give a fair reading/response to anything that's said to you. You're mad that the ABCA hasn't banned dual registration, but you dual register yourself and advocate others doing it. You seem to feel that anything wrong in the world of ABCA border collies is the registry's fault, and anything wrong in the world of AKC border collies (if indeed there IS anything wrong in that world) is the breeders' fault. I'm sure you treat your dogs well. So do I, so does everyone I know who has posted to this thread. So what does that have to do with anything?

After reading your posts here and in your "LA DE DA why neuter?" thread, I'm beginning to think you're just trolling around and get a kick out of stirring the pot.

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#231 Shetlander

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Posted 05 February 2006 - 02:23 PM

Originally posted by KillerH:
I see nothing wrong with competing. I would be tickled with your accomplishments. But you have to understand that when you try and reproduce the same dogs without the herding background you are going to miss little pieces of the puzzel somewhere along the line-- its inevitable. And these are little pieces that you too will end up missing having in the next generations.

You make a lot of very important points and do it really well in this post. These boards are a wonderful education for me. May I just make one small observation as an agility person who doesn't herd or breed? I understand Agility is a sport. It isn't the true work of BC's. But little comments like "I would be tickled with your accomplishments," no matter how sincerely kindly meant can feel demeaning to an agility person. I don't think non-sport people understand how dismissive they sometimes sound about agility.

What Rosanne has accomplished is way more than something to feel tickled about. That's like saying to an Olympian Athlete, "I'd be tickled to compete at the world level." Or telling a pro football player, "You must be tickled to be in the playoffs."

I was tickled that my not built for speed, interesting to motivate Lhasa ran great at an agility show and go yesterday. I was tickled that my 7 month old BC is making excellent progress learning how to stay inside his skin despite the excitment of an agility match. Why, there were long periods of time (3 or 4 minutes at a stretch even! :rolleyes: ) where he was able to lie at my feet and quietly observe the thrilling world around him.

If I was achieving what Rosanne is achieving, even though it isn't herding, I'd be thrilled and proud. It takes incredible training, skills and talent to take a team to that level. Agility, though a sport, is also a passion for many and a profession for some. I think it's important to remember that even if an activity means nothing to us, it can mean a huge amount to someone else.

Liz


 


#232 Eileen Stein

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Posted 05 February 2006 - 02:27 PM

Natalie,

If your husband doesn't like border collies, I suppose it's only to be expected that he's not going to have much regard for the breeding philosophy that produced them. What amazes me is the people who LOVE border collies, think they're wonderful, MUST have them, no KC breed will do, and yet do not respect the breeding philosophy that produced them.

Has he ever read Eminent Dogs, Dangerous Men? Do you think that would have any impact on him?

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#233 Howdyjabo

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Posted 05 February 2006 - 02:35 PM

Point taken--- bad choice of words

#234 Miztiki

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Posted 05 February 2006 - 02:45 PM

I have a question.

What makes a BC a *really* good herding dog? Sound physical structure, biddability?

What makes a BC a *really* good agility dog? Sound physical structure, biddability?

I know they both need those two, but what else that is *hereditary*? Meaning, can be passed along from one generation to the next?

Thanks.

#235 bobh

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Posted 05 February 2006 - 02:56 PM

Ellie n WOW I am new to AbCa and am trying all I can i never said I love the AKC . But every day moreabd more Bcs are dual regestered i do not know the ansewer and do look to all of the exsperenced Bc people for the ansewers
and like My Ladeda post it looks like maybe as individuals some of you want to protect the BC. But the hearding world in general may not.It seams simple do not let your ABCA dogs be dual regestered . But if you do let them be dual rege, than I will regester them so i can trial in agility . But will not breed them And i will go back to my Breeder
Iam not griping or complaining but if youthe herding BC exsperts do not protect the Bc who will .?

ALL WE HAVE TO DO IS DONOT ALLOW DUAL REGESTRAION END OF PROBLEM wHY WOULD bREEDERS FIND THIS DIFICULT MAY BE MONEY IS MORE IMPORTANT THEN THE BC.I donot know .
as to what my taking care of my dogs mean .Well I do not breed them and than blame anyone for ruining them .I do not rehome them because they are not werethy for Herding or agility >None of my dogs ended up as arescue .
i think the brunt of the problem lies with the Breeders either ABCA or AKC dogs . and then the owners for going to those breeders .You and your directors can push the issue , BUT most of the BC community must feel that dual reg. is Ok because it is still allowed .
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#236 Eileen Stein

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Posted 05 February 2006 - 03:02 PM

<< If I was achieving what Rosanne is achieving, even though it isn't herding, I'd be thrilled and proud. It takes incredible training, skills and talent to take a team to that level. Agility, though a sport, is also a passion for many and a profession for some. >>

I'm sure that's true. Yet there have been people with that level of skill, talent and achievement who have refused to register their border collies with the AKC, despite the personal and career sacrifice it entailed. Those are the people I really admire.

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#237 Rebecca, Irena Farm

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Posted 05 February 2006 - 03:11 PM

What makes a BC a *really* good herding dog? Sound physical structure, biddability?

What makes a Border collie work effectively on stock is its ability to work effectively on stock. You absolutely can't make a laundry list of discrete requirements because it's too complex a mixture. And I've started seeing that each "characteristic" that we can sort of pick out is not really a quality like red color or prick ears. I see it as a function of a balance between two extremes: like the ability to think independantly and biddability, the ability to feel pressure and the ability to walk into pressure, eye and practical stock sense.

The list goes on and on and only scratches the surface of what goes into the dog's every interaction with the stock, the trainer, and his working environment. And moreover, what is effective in one situation may not work at another time.

Another factor that is often overlooked by novice breeders is the dog's ability to adapt to a wide range of working situations, which cannot be trained or handled through. The dog is either born with enough adaptability to be effective, or isn't. This is one of many qualities sport trainers depend on but which wouldn't be thoroughly tested in a sport or "hobby herding" environment.

As time goes on I'm sure my very novice perception will morph again, as will my understanding of how these qualities are formed via breeding decisions. the more experienced a breeder is, the clearer the picture is for them. They can also see the potential of a dog much earlier, the more pups they train up to the top level. I can't really see that at all, having never done it at all (though I've trained pups to a level where they are more-or-less useful on the farm).

That's why this is so so so important, that breeding should be left to those who understand the process and see the big picture. A majority of prominant breeders who have different goals WILL change the breed substantially if there is no solid line between them and us.
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#238 Miztiki

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Posted 05 February 2006 - 03:17 PM

There was a list of four or five things that are hereditary that I saw on the cattle/sheep/ducks video from Rural Route. I couldn't find it again on the tape but it listed certain important traits that are passed on through their genes. It's something they are born with, not taught or trained. That's what I was getting at. It struck me as important and relevent to this whole thread, especially for people like me who don't really know or understand completely how it's the hereditary herding qualities that make such a great sport dog.

#239 Eileen Stein

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Posted 05 February 2006 - 03:18 PM

<< But every day moreabd more Bcs are dual regestered i do not know the ansewer and do look to all of the exsperenced Bc people for the ansewers >>

Here's one answer, entirely within your control: Don't register your ABCA border collies with the AKC. Then your border collies won't be dual registered. If everybody did that, then no border collies would be dual registered. If you're not willing to do that, you're just passing the buck.

<< It seams simple do not let your ABCA dogs be dual regestered . But if you do let them be dual rege, than I will regester them so i can trial in agility . . . . I am not griping or complaining but if youthe herding BC exsperts do not protect the Bc who will .? >>

Well, maybe the border collie owners who do the right thing without being forced to by the registry will. I'll say it back to you: DO NOT LET YOUR ABCA DOGS BE DUAL REGISTERED. If you won't even do that with your own dogs, which couldn't be simpler, who are you to criticize the registry for not doing it?

<< Well I do not breed them and than blame anyone for ruining them .I do not rehome them because they are not werethy for Herding or agility >None of my dogs ended up as arescue . >>

So?

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#240 Lunar

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Posted 05 February 2006 - 04:07 PM

Originally posted by Eileen Stein:
Natalie,

If your husband doesn't like border collies, I suppose it's only to be expected that he's not going to have much regard for the breeding philosophy that produced them. What amazes me is the people who LOVE border collies, think they're wonderful, MUST have them, no KC breed will do, and yet do not respect the breeding philosophy that produced them.

Has he ever read Eminent Dogs, Dangerous Men? Do you think that would have any impact on him?

I agree, the people who love the breed but don't do anything about it, that's the saddest of all. :rolleyes:

No, my hubby doesn't read training or dog books. And I don't think it would make much of an impact, even if he did. I am thinking of finding out if there are any herding competitions in the area and dragging him there. But I doubt he'll ever see it like I do. What I find saddest though is that he absolutely loves german shepherds, he thinks they are the most regal, great dogs. But when I pointed out to him that without specific breeding the GSD breed wouldn't exist - and he wasn't concerned. :D I think I knew then that it was one argument I'd never win.

Natalie
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