Long lines in triaining - how to keep from entangling yourself

[5Bordercollies]

Does anybody here use long lines when first training a young dog? I was thinking of using a long line when starting my youngster, but yesterday I had the puppy (8 mths, 18 kgs) out on a 5meter lead, she took off after a horse, rope got tangled around my leg and I hit the ground hard.

So I was wondering those of you, if aybody who use long lines, how do you keep from getting entangled and getting tripped up?

Or is it better to not use a line at all? I suppose it is safer.

[Pam Wolf]

Is it possible??? But I don't get tangled in the line that often, but it happens. It takes a while to learn how to prevent it from getting tangled til then, stick to the 5M length or so. I've seen them MUCH longer.

[juliepoudrier]

I've used a line for some youngsters. You just have to pay attention to where it is in relation to you and do your best to avoid it. Generally the pup shouldn't be whipping around right at your feet if you're working sheep, so entanglement, though possible, is a bit less likely. Also be sure to wear long pants and socks, so that if the rope does get wrapped or pulled past you at great speed, you won't end up with a rope burn.

 

If you have a space that's small and sheep that are well broke ("puppy sheep") a long line may be unnecessary. For me it would be there mainly to be able to stop/catch the pup and not for any real training use.

 

J.

[Gloria Atwater]

Also make sure it's not too long. If it seems to be constantly wrapping up in things - and your legs - you might want to trim another 4 or 5 feet off.

I am totally long line impaired, get them hopelessly tangled simply by picking them up! So the one I'm using now, for a youngster I have in, is only about 15 feet long.

Good luck!

~ Gloria

[Liz P]

I'll use a 100ft to 300ft line. It does take some practice. I guess I am not getting tangled very often because the dog isn't running around in such a way to cause it. Is there anyone nearby who can show you how to use it?

[lookback]

Hmm - nobody's mentioned the sheep. A long line can get wrapped around the sheep's legs, with all the wrong results. I only use a line as a last resort. I find them counter-productive except for very aggressive dogs.

 

You only need to watch what's happening to see what I mean. We're trying to train the dog to stay off the sheep, but a long rope, by it's very nature is dragging the dog in towards them - just what we don't want.

 

It gets tangled round the sheep, round the dog, and round the handler. If you must use a rope, far better to use a shorter length.

 

The whole idea of the rope is to fool the dog into thinking you still have control of it on a lead (or leash), so if the dog's lead trained, a short rope of sufficient weight to drag on the ground will give the dog the impression it's still under your control.

 

If the dog's really aggressive with the sheep, I use a short rope (about 2m long, with a short length of heavy chain on the end. This slows the dog down considerably. (Don't make it too heavy, of course).

 

I train dogs for a living, and to be honest, I only use a rope on a dog about once or twice a year. I find it far better to set up a training ring with hurdles or fencing or bales of some sort (about 28-30 x 1.8m [6ft] hurdles or panels). Put about three or at most four sheep in there, and go in with the dog and a good training stick (1mtr long and VERY lightweight).

 

Once the sheep get "dogged" they will stay around your legs and if there's more than four sheep you won't be able to move around quickly enough to control the dog. Fewer than three, will panic and be difficult to manage.

 

Once your dog will control the sheep and hold them to you, move out of the ring as it's far better to teach the dog out in the open. Good luck with the training.

[Liz P]

To each his own. A hill shepherd and world renowned trainer showed my how to use a long line. I like the method and it works for me.

[G. Festerling]

To me it is simple practice and knowing what to expect i.e. be prepared for.

I love using drivinglines with my horses when we start them. But it takes practice. If I have not done it for a while, I make sure no one is watching for the first few minutes.

Back to the dogs....

I saw an international handler use longlines in a clinic and loved it! So many uses and applications.

So practice, practice, practice.

And yes, wild sheep, a dog out of control and a longline...probably not the way to get started!

[lookback]

When people come to our training classes, I always tell them to listen to every bit of training advice they can glean from different trainers (not just me) and then decide what makes the best sense, what works and what doesn't - and what's best for them and their dog.

 

If it works for you, and it's not bad for the dog or the sheep, that's fine, go for it.

[G. Festerling]

Something just popped into my brain, and this is not at all to argue but maybe just to add to the idea that there are many different ways to do things....

Personally, I prefer not to look at the use of a long line ONLY as a tool to fool the dog into thinking you still have control.

I prefer to look at it as a tool to guide and minimize mistakes.

I have seen it used to actually build more drive (not cross drive but just basic drive to work) in a few dogs.

When I first watched it done it actually cleared up some lines in my head that were all of a sudden visible (yes, I function that way at times).

Now for full disclosure, with my horses I know how to use them and can come up with less accepted uses as well. But with my dogs I am not at all handy with them myself.

[lookback]

Agreed - I should have said the main reason, rather than the whole reason. Some people use a line simply because they can't stop the dog, but they can step on the line and the dog stops - but when you're holding the line, it's of limited use for controlling a dog that's running straight at the sheep (which is what some people try to use it for).

 

Certainly, you can hold the dog back (if you're strong enough) but surely, we want the dog to go round the sheep. It cannot really do this unless the line is slack (and then you have no control, other than the dog's notion that it's restrained).

 

Agreed, restraining a dog on a leash can increase its aggression (or drive if you prefer). It's well known that pet dogs on leads are more likely to fight than dogs which are free (generally).

 

Just as with humans, every dog is different. A training method or aid which works well for one dog may be hopeless with another - and likewise trainers - some methods work for some trainers, and not for others.

[Liz P]

I use the line for many reasons. It can be used to instill confidence during driving, guide flanks, teach pace, reinforce a stop, etc. Like any other tool it can be used incorrectly and abused. I recommend having someone experience with using it show a person how it's done.

[juliepoudrier]

Some people use a line simply because they can't stop the dog, but they can step on the line and the dog stops -

 

 

This (would be my reason for a long line. It needn't be super long, just long enough to step on, and only for a short period of time during a pup's first exposure(s) to sheep, when the pup is not interested in stopping and being called off. I am wary of a line wrapping my or the stock's legs, but really if the pup is that wild out there, then it might make sense to put it up for a bit and let it mature. For me the main use is to be able to catch the pup (this is especially helpful when I am limited by not having a smaller area to work)

 

I've also seen the long line used to teach/aid driving (same clinician, no doubt). At the time it was demonstrated to me, I was too novice to really be able to make good use of it, so abandoned the technique. But not long ago, I did use such a line on a dog who is desperate to head on the drive and whose handler is a little slow to stop him (i.e., allowing him to overflank, which then sets up the situation to allow his eye draw him on around to the heads). It worked fine in that situation, but again this wasn't a dog anyone was trying to hold back off sheep; it was simply a dog who needed to learn to feel comfortable working behind the sheep instead of flanking to the heads.

 

J.

[Pam Wolf]

Like any training tool it can be used well or poorly depending on the ability of the human in question. I was adverse to the long line for many years as I had only ever seen it used much like a leash and choke chain to jerk the dog here and there at best making a dog very mechanical. The same shepherd as Liz P showed me a much better way and I prefer it now. But it is best used by someone who understands behavior both stock and dog and their interaction. I think much of the bad publicity on long lines comes from improper use.