Rudder has lost his mind

[Jexa]

Background for the new guys/refresher for those who remember:

 

We adopted Rudder when he was about 9 weeks old, and from the start he was fearful of new people, but loved other dogs. As he got older (he's ~2.5 now) the fear of people started to subside and he continued to always played nicely with other dogs - he loves to be chased, and he loves wrestling with his "brother" Max. He will still keep his distance initially from new people but warms up relatively quickly, especially if they have a dog. He had NEVER shown even a hint of agression towards another dog - until this weekend.

 

The problem:

2 friends of DH's stayed with us this weekend and brought their pug. We were a little concerned with Max, who has a big personal bubble and doesn't like strange dogs, but Max tolerated the pug like a champ. Rudder did his typical "yay new friend chase me!" routine, and even ran right up to the male owner, which is rare for him. We were pretty darn happy: Max did a great job ignoring the new dog, Rudder hardly acted scared of the new people.

 

On Saturday, I was sitting on the couch eating lunch, everything is quiet, Rudder next to me, the pug on the ground a few feet away, Max outside (we figured we'd give him breaks from the pug). Pug walked in front of the couch, about 4 ft, parallel to the couch not looking at Rudder. Rudder lunged, snarled, and snapped his teeth at the pug. He didn't make contact but up til then I had never heard him make that sound, or ever lunge at another dog...ever. He's never shown any food/resource guarding before, but I figured maybe the combo of new people/dog next to my lunch...I put the food up and Rudder outside, plan to keep him separated from pug for the wekend...shocked, but still thinking maybe a onetime fluke deal. Who knows, maybe the pug did something earlier to make Rudder mad that I didn't see.

 

About 3-4 hrs later, Max, Rudder and I are all on the couch, pug is outside, and Rudder went after Max. Grabbed the scruff of his neck, sounded like he was going to tear him apart. I separated them, Max was fine, but I crated Rudder. I couldn't discern any trigger that set him off. Again, extremely unlike him.

 

Then, DH decides to take the friends out on the boat and bring the dogs (they love it). I was hesitant to bring Rudder, but decided it'd be ok since the pug was staying behind. Rudder was back to acting completely normal around Max. DH decides to pick up another friend and his year old hunting lab. I argued this was a terrible idea, DH initially agreed but somehow the dog ended up going with us anyway (trust me, DH have had a little chat about this). I kept our 2 in the bow, lab was back near the motor. No issues. We went to a small beach and sent Max and the lab swimming (Rudder likes water only as long as he can touch the bottom). No issues. After about 30 min of the dogs running around the beach and swimming and totally ignoring each other, Rudder attacked the lab. Grabbed his neck, shook him around (tried to, lab outweighs him about 15 lbs) and threw him to the ground. DH separated them, very small nick on the lab but nothing else.

 

We saw no provocation for any of the attacks. I allow my dogs to get rude dogs out of their faces, and then chastise myself for allowing that situation to occur. This was not that type of situation. This was other dogs minding their own business well outside of Rudder's established bubble, and Rudder going after them.

 

The only thing we could initially think is maybe the combination of new people plus their dog staying in his house sent him over the threshold. But he's dealt with that with no issues before, and by now I'm pretty attune to his "I'm not comfortable" attitude and body language, and saw none of that the entire weekend. Finally, this morning, after he'd had the house back for about a day, he went after Max AGAIN while Max was just lying next to me. This time, as with each other time, he immediately returned to normal behavior after I separated them.

 

Words can't adequately express how out of character this is for Rudder. Or how upset it's making me. Seemingly out of nowhere he went after 3 dogs, apparently unprovoked, in the space of a day. Honestly at this point the only thing I can think is some sort of brain tumor or something. I can't imagine what else would so drastically alter his behavior so quickly. We're keeping him and Max separated for now, but I have no idea where to go from here.

 

Please tell me I'm an idiot and I'm missing something obvious! I'm trying not to freak, but I'm terrified this will only escalate and I have no idea where it's coming from or what to do about it. Help!

[tyrelsamson]

Well you are surely no idiot! Sounds like your a very thoughtful owner, instead of just punishing Rudder you are looking to see if there is an underlying cause..something a lot of owners seem to forget. I would definetly get Rudder into a vet and get him checked out. Have his eating habits changed at all?

We have 2 blue heelers (a 3 year old male, and 9 month old female) and 6.5 month old BC pup. Greeley (the male heeler) is a great dog, he was extremely accepting of both new pups when they entered into his territory. After a few months they all bonded quite well (the "wolfpack" we call them), until one day Greeley started snapping at both of them. At first we thought he was just sick of there puppy energy and was just letting them know to back off. But it got worse and more frequent until finally Greeley attacked Linnaea full on in yard. We seperated them all for a few days and spent one on one time with each of our own dogs. Gave it another shot and let them play in the yard, within 15 minutes Greeley attacked Picea.

We didn't know what to do so we took Greeley to the vet. Turns out he was having thyroid issues. Once he was diagnosed the vet explained Greeley was acting out of frustration and pain. He was agitated from the discomfort and when the girls got in his space he just snapped. There was no indications that he was in pain. In retrospect however, there was a slight change in his eating patterns that went un noticed. He has always been a bit of a fussy eater.

two days and a few pills later the trio were outside playing happily ever after!

[GentleLake]

I can only imagine your frustration.

 

I don't really know why Rudder may have instigated the first attack on the pug. As you say, it may have been a combination of resource guarding (with you possibly being one of the resources) and all the new stuff happening at the time.

 

One thing many people aren't aware of is that once something like this happens, the dog releases hormones that keep him in a state of arousal, and that last for at least a day or so. (I'm probably not stating this well, as it's not something I really know a lot about, so hopefully someone more knowledgeable will fill in the details.)

 

With this being the case, the rest of the story isn't all that surprising. Everything happened on the heels of the events preceding it, and with such a short time span between them, I'm guessing those hormones continued to build up in Rudder's body.

 

I've heard people say that when a dog gets into a skirmish it shouldn't be allowed to interact with other dogs (or at least be very closely monitored with resident dogs) for a good day or so till those hormones have a chance to subside. Again, hoping someone else will be able to add to this.

 

Another thing to consider would be to have a good vet workup done. Underactive thyroid can cause aggression. I'd suggest send a blood sample to Dr. Jean Dodds at HemoPet in CA. Not all vets are well versed in interpreting the results, and she specializes in it. Other things like pain can make a dogs cranky, too.

 

Best wishes figuring out what's going on.

[GentleLake]

Things like what Tyrelsamson describe are all too common. Hypothyroidism sadly is rampant, both in dogs and humans these days.

[Jexa]

Thanks for the responses - we're definitely considering vet work, but honestly don't really know where to start. I'm wary about telling a vet he's been aggressive towards dogs because I worry that would potentially start a paper trail of him being a "dangerous dog".

 

We're in northeast Mississippi, a couple hours from Birmingham, Jackson, and Memphis, and not too far from Atlanta and Nashville if anyone has recommendations for vets to contact.

[tyrelsamson]

A good vet should understand that the new aggressive behaviour is being caused by something. Rudder sounds like a good boy and might just be acting out to get attention because he is pain.

Unfortunately I am in British Columbia, Canada and can only recommend a local vet here.

Best of luck!

[GentleLake]

I agree. I'd think a vet would respect the fact that you're investigating causes rather than blowing it off and/or letting it get worse.

 

And if it's a symptom, it's something the vet should know about.

[SS Cressa]

Is Max neuter? And were the other dogs neuter?

 

I never realized how stressful it is for dogs for another dog to intrude on their turf till I had a dog who acted like yours. But way worst. not much suggestion. I know my dog was possessive of me and hated unalter dogs.

[Jexa]

All dogs involved are neutered and have been for a long time. Nothing other than the visit by the friends has changed in his environment. Eating habits/exercise etc are all unchanged. That's a good point about the vet...I currently live in an area that is apparently pretty trigger happy to label dogs as dangerous and summarily put them down so I'm probably overly gunshy about that. I know I wouldn't get a complete answer if the vet doesn't know the complete background.

[Gideon's girl]

You don't have to tell the vet that he has been aggressive, if you are worried. Just tell him that he has been reactive or agitated or just totally not himself and you would like him checked out.

[Journey]

if anyone has recommendations for vets to contact.

Dr. Parker, Shelby Animal Hospital, Shelby Co. just east of Memphis. Open minded and extremely thorough.

[Jexa]

Thanks Journey for the recommendation - I think that's actually the place that did Max's neuter/initial vaccinations when he was with West TN Border Collie Rescue. Will definitely give them a call.

[GentleLake]

You don't have to tell the vet that he has been aggressive, if you are worried. Just tell him that he has been reactive or agitated or just totally not himself and you would like him checked out.

 

I disagree . . . as I said, if this could be from a medical issue, the vet needs to be informed of all symptoms.

 

There's no need to be dramatic about it. None of the other dogs were harmed, were they? And no human bites. So it this point it's pretty minor as far as labeling him a dangerous dog. Holding back information isn't going to help the vet sort things out. I'd just say he got snarky with the other dogs.

[Shetlander]

^^^^ Agree. I would not withhold possible symptoms when asking a vet to see if there is medical problem. If this is a sudden change in his behavior, that is significant and I would want my vet to know.

[Gideon's girl]

I disagree . . . as I said, if this could be from a medical issue, the vet needs to be informed of all symptoms.

 

There's no need to be dramatic about it. None of the other dogs were harmed, were they? And no human bites. So it this point it's pretty minor as far as labeling him a dangerous dog. Holding back information isn't going to help the vet sort things out. I'd just say he got snarky with the other dogs.

I agree with you and I wouldn't have an issue telling my vet the whole thing, but if the issue is possibly not going to the vet because you are worried about creating a paper trail or you know you have a vet that has personal issues or whatever, the point is that you tell the vet that you are seeing behavior in your dog that is not normal and causes you concern and you want blood work done and a complete physical. The details don't matter for blood work and a complete physical. If the vet is a behaviorist, then every detail, including a lot you probably didn't even notice, is important. JMO, but I think when a dog goes this far, it is well beyond snarky.

[Urban Borders]

This is not actually uncommon, and probably not due to a brain tumor. Although an underlying medical problem could contribute to the distress of the animal. But GentleLake is right: cortisol, which is one of the stress hormones secreted in response to HPA axis upregulation, can last for a long time, 24 hours plus, in a dog's bloodstream. After each incident, Rudder may have seemed "fine," but was likely nowhere near baseline in terms of his stress level. Actually, considering what you say about Max's concerns over other dogs, and Rudder's concerns over unfamiliar people, they are probably both dogs with a tendency to become stressed and distressed. Even little changes in their environment or schedule can bring them much closer to threshold, and the past few days have been a perfect storm of stressors from which neither dog had a chance to adequately recover. The problem is 1) that you didn't see warning signs and 2) that every negative experience Rudder has with other dogs (but especially that Rudder and Max have with each other) can damage their relationship. Sometimes, dogs have enough negative experiences with each other that they can no longer live safely together. See a vet; then, honestly, go see a veterinary behaviorist. At this stage, recommendations should be pretty simplistic, but this is the time to get some safety rules in place to preserve Max and Rudder's relationship.

[Sue R]

 

I disagree . . . as I said, if this could be from a medical issue, the vet needs to be informed of all symptoms.

 

There's no need to be dramatic about it. None of the other dogs were harmed, were they? And no human bites. So it this point it's pretty minor as far as labeling him a dangerous dog. Holding back information isn't going to help the vet sort things out. I'd just say he got snarky with the other dogs.

Agree!

[waffles]

From your post I don't get the impression this is a medical issue. I agree with urban borders post.

 

Your situation reminds me of my dog. When we have guest dogs in the house Levi suddenly takes an interest in our cats. He lives peacefully with the three normally but as soon as another dog stays with us he starts controlling the cats and getting on their case when they run and play. Even gives them his best ugly face when they get near him when he normally sleeps with them. The guest dog can be completely ignoring the cats the whole stay or even scared of the cats and Levi will act differently towards the cats so it's not like he is reacting to the other dog's excitement.

 

I would wait a week or so for your guys to really de stress before seeing a vet. It sounds like they had a stressful time even though at some points appeared to be having Fun.

[Shetlander]

If it was my dog I would want to rule out the medical, just in case. Whatever route you go, intervening n o w before this becomes a pattern is wise. I have two dogs who don't like each other and it is a drag that I always need to keep an eye on them. if I leave town. I don't leave both with the sitter. For the most part, they peacefully coexist but that is with ongoing care and management on my part. I'd much rather they were friends.

[GentleLake]

From your post I don't get the impression this is a medical issue. I agree with urban borders post.

 

 

There's a very good chance it's not a medical issue. But a medical issue should still be ruled out.

 

Consulting a veterinary behaviorist or a Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist is an excellent idea, and would most likely be my recommendation once a medical issue is ruled out. But I strongly suspect that these folks would want a medical workup before instituting a behavioral modification plan.

 

And while a brain tumor may not be a high probability, the same can't be said of hypothyroidism. It's practically epidemic among both dogs and humans, and aggression is a know symptom.

 

Still best, imo, to have a medical workup done.

[Jexa]

Part of the reason I'm thinking medical issue is that this type of situation is not new to Rudder. He has in the past dealt very well with new people and dogs visiting, so I did not anticipate this being remotely overwhelming experience. Maybe slightly stressful, but nothing he hasn't handled well in the past. In fact he usually is much happier with the visiting people and the situation in general if they brought him a new canine friend. We joke that he thinks these people are ok because clearly they haven't killed their dog yet, so maybe they won't kill him!

 

In the past, Rudder's response to an uncomfortable situation (normally only caused by people, but rarely also by very loud/abrupt noise/movement) has been to retreat. Usually next to me is enough of a "safe place" for him to feel comfortable with the situation. Whenever we have new people over we make sure he always as an exit available, but normally he's happy as long as he's velcroed to me initially. About 15 minutes into the visit he's usually shamelessly sprawled across the new person's lap begging for ear scratches. This past weekend was initially no different, and we made sure he always felt like he could retreat to his spot to get away from it all. This was the first time that, if he felt stressed, he reacted by lashing out instead of retreating.

 

Since he was a baby I've fought hard to keep his fear from turning into fear-agression. I've been careful to keep him from being overwhelmed, set him up for success, and never push him too quickly. And it's worked - he is significantly braver than he used to be and up until this weekend had never shown a hint of agression. I've also become very attuned to his "not really scared, but not all that thrilled either" cues.

 

All of that combined with the fact that I'm 95% positive that I didn't miss any stress signals or a provocation for the attacks (at least the first...the rest I can chalk up to the cortisol) makes me think there's something medical vs behavioral going on.

 

We are still keeping Max and Rudder separated for now, and I think we'll get a medical work up done (with full disclosure of why) before we proceed down any other routes.

 

I appreciate the responses, please continue to add your thoughts/experiences!

[Camden's Mom]

I don't have any useful advice to add but I did want to just express my support. I can't imagine how stressful and upsetting this must be for you and your household (four legged and two legged members alike). I wish I could offer constructive help or suggestions but instead I'll have to send along my best wishes for all of you going forward. Please keep us posted...

[waffles]

Your last post gives a different picture than what I initially read/how I interpreted it. I would say a vet visit is in order even just for peace of mind. Initially thought behavior didn't sound like it was too odd for Rudder but now it seems it is out of the ordinary for him.

 

I wish you the best of luck with the outcome. Would be very curious to find out if anything medical is going on.

[jvw]

Way back when before Tyra was diagnosed with hypothyroidism she became intolerant of guest dogs.

[Urban Borders]

Hope you find something, truly. Very important to rule a medical issue out. Unfortunately, this is also the "age". Historically, it's been called social maturity. I'm more inclined to believe it's sensitization. But regardless, it is very, very common for fear-related aggression to manifest around 1-2 years of age. There is no data yet, but anecdotally many of those dogs have a history of either very high arousal or of fleeing/freezing behaviors as puppies.