It's Not Separation Anxiety

[Aandi]

So, I know there are people all across the board here on "dominant/submissive" rights and wrongs, etc. I'm not looking to start a controversy. Just thought I'd share my experience in case it helps someone else.

Was truly at my limits with the SA and looking at having to re-home Brick (bit hubby while I was gone. wouldn't leave front door and hubby was trying to bring dog back upstairs to within gated area - no skin breakage). He gets so wound up once in that state of panic, he's not "right". I reached out to a friend who has a lot of rescue/training connections. Explained that I'm limited financially (and due to others) for getting the dog "help". She connected me to someone willing to barter services (book keeping for training). Turns out the man lives 5 minutes up the road and is a stock dog trainer (who trains using "pressure and release").

Got to see Brick in a pen with sheep. He has some drive, but it's not "what he lives for". In the short time we were there, this man observed Brick and I and flat out said, "He's spoiled." I heard him, but didn't quite grasp the concept. I see my self as a strong personality, not easily told what to do. WRONG. This dog dictates my every move. I had humanized him and subjected myself to his whims, without knowing it. This trainer made it clear that so long as Brick is in charge, things would not change. He explained that "taking charge" is not about being aggressive or mean. It's simply about who's boss. Brick does not get to tell me what to do through barking, whining, jumping around, etc. He gets fed and let to bathroom when I allow, not when he demands. He warned that the transition may bring out some aggression from Brick. Transition from one leader to another tends to do that. I didn't believe this would happen for us. I truly thought Brick and I had made a lot of progress and were "bonded", "on the same page", etc.

Brought brick home. Told him to "go to bed", which means to lay in his crate (pressure). He did. (release) Then he came out. Told him, again (pressure). Did not listen. Moved forward to give more "pressure" he "gave". (release) Came out again. Did not listen, did not "give" to body movement, so I held. Just when it looked like he was going to "give" he snapped. I bit back. I had a hair brush in my hand and met him before he caught my leg. (This was not thought out. I was going to be bit and reacted. There was no time to think. Just reflex) He instantly went in and laid down.

(Here come the critics..."you asked for it" "you did this wrong" "you're abusive" yada yada. I said I knew there would be varying views. You keep yours. Read on. There's more)

From that moment on, when I gave a verbal command, he obeyed. Now for the real kicker.
Normally, Brick will not let me out of his sight. He whines and barks incessantly if I am. It turned out I needed to run outside to my car to look for something. Gave the verbal "lay", "stay" leaving him behind the gate upstairs. Ran downstairs, out the door and searched in the car for a minute. Walked back in to silence. Asked hubby if he had whined/barked. Hubby said he hadn't. Went back upstairs and he was in the same place, still lying down, completely calm and relaxed.

This isn't separation anxiety. This is "You're too far away for me to tell you what to do" anxiety.

Summary: There was a major problem. I've found a solution (whether everyone agrees it's right, wrong, anything in between or not, it's working). The dog gets to stay in a home where he is loved and cared for.

He also gets to live and function in a relaxed and calm state rather than in a panic- This means the most to me. This is what he needs. Him not having THIS is what was abusive and mean.

I was honestly afraid to share, because I'm sure there are some who will tear into me, but I really hope this can help someone else struggling to live life with a dog who has "SA".
I also know that this is not the "cause" of SA for every other dog out there suffering from it. Hoping it can help those who are, though.

[moosikins]

Wow, it really sounds like you made both of your lives considerably better. I'm very impressed that you were able to follow through and retrain Brick.

 

And don't feel bad about the hair brush incident...We had a broom scenario that was very similar that I still feel pretty guilty about sometimes until I remember that my dog has absolutely no recollection of it because she was in beast mode and I was in panic mode and that's not our normal state or behavior.

[CptJack]

I don't even know where to begin, except by saying there is a load of middle ground that you seem to have skipped over entirely and that's very, very unfortunate.

 

There are options between "humanizing a dog and treating him like a child who's needs you cater to" and 'Humanizing a dog by seeing him as wanting to 'be your boss' and manipulate you and other such nonsense."

That middle ground is mostly seeing the dog as a DOG and treating him as such. You've just gone from one extreme to another and from 'catering' and enabling to advesarial. I'm not really surprised you're seeing success for now (by some definition), but I don't think you're going to wind up happy in the long run unless you figure out how to stop swinging from one extreme to another with how you relate to this dog and FIND that middle ground.

 

I hope I'm wrong about that, for the sake of you and your dog.

And no, it's not because of the 'hair brush' incident that I say this, and has nothing to do with pressure, OR aversives.

[Aandi]

Thanks, moo. I was feeling bad about the hair brush incident. I've never been one to be "physical" with an animal. I think this is only a start but a good a good one. Looking forward to a much calmer, happier future.

Wow, it really sounds like you made both of your lives considerably better. I'm very impressed that you were able to follow through and retrain Brick.

 

And don't feel bad about the hair brush incident...We had a broom scenario that was very similar that I still feel pretty guilty about sometimes until I remember that my dog has absolutely no recollection of it because she was in beast mode and I was in panic mode and that's not our normal state or behavior.

[Aandi]

Hey Jack,

thanks for sharing your thoughts with being "mean". I honestly thought I was in the "middle ground" as you mentioned. Truly. I've never been one to treat a dog as a child, but hadn't seen the situation as far as this either. I don't believe the dog is "manipulative" or "dictating" etc. I do, however, believe that the dog was in a mindset of "boss". I think there is a middle ground within this perspective, as well. I do believe a dog behaving that was is part of a dog's instinctive behaviors as a DOG.

Honestly, it does feel extreme to me. I agree with that. However, the situation was already (and had started) in a place where I feel a bit of "extreme" is necessary to prevent this hairy situation from turning extremely bad. (more biting, etc).

I hope you're wrong, too. I can see where you could be right, though. I am definitely moving forward in an "eyes open", analytical, loving way.

Again..thanks for sharing your perspective in an honest, yet still kind, way.

I don't even know where to begin, except by saying there is a load of middle ground that you seem to have skipped over entirely and that's very, very unfortunate.

 

There are options between "humanizing a dog and treating him like a child who's needs you cater to" and 'Humanizing a dog by seeing him as wanting to 'be your boss' and manipulate you and other such nonsense."

That middle ground is mostly seeing the dog as a DOG and treating him as such. You've just gone from one extreme to another and from 'catering' and enabling to advesarial. I'm not really surprised you're seeing success for now (by some definition), but I don't think you're going to wind up happy in the long run unless you figure out how to stop swinging from one extreme to another with how you relate to this dog and FIND that middle ground.

 

I hope I'm wrong about that, for the sake of you and your dog.

And no, it's not because of the 'hair brush' incident that I say this, and has nothing to do with pressure, OR aversives.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

In reply to Ms. Aandi's post, Ms/Mr. Cpt Jack replied: "There are options between "humanizing a dog and treating him like a child who's needs you cater to" and 'Humanizing a dog by seeing him as wanting to 'be your boss' and manipulate you and other such nonsense."

That middle ground is mostly seeing the dog as a DOG and treating him as such. You've just gone from one extreme to another and from 'catering' and enabling to advesarial."

 

Er, no. She told her dog he couldn't bite her because he was lower status in her mini pack than she was. She was lucky to have an opportunity the dog understood - such clearcut opportunities are rare for novices though more experienced trainers seek them.

Subsequently, her dog is adapting to the new (proper) relationship as is she.

 

By good luck, she was able to correct the dog meaningfully and properly.

 

Unfortunately there are many silly theories how to"see the dog as a DOG". Ms. Aandi has seen her dog, acted appropriately and succeeded. Go on from there. Happy dog/happy owner.

 

Donald McCaig

[CptJack]

I said nothing at all about the appropriateness of the action. In fact, I would have done the same thing (also without thinking, to avoid the bite) and I have no idea what you believe I am taking issue with is her swatting a dog who was going to bite her with a hairbrush? Nothing at all I said IMPLIED any such thing, much less outright stated it.

In fact, I said exactly the opposite.

 

And no, it's not because of the 'hair brush' incident that I say this, and has nothing to do with pressure, OR aversives.

 

But, er, thank you I suppose for the effort you put into reading the words on the screen, making inferences, reading meaning that is not there into those words, and declaring your own conclusions silly? That seems like an awful lot of wasted effort on your end, but fairly flattering to me, I suppose.

All I said was that attributing MOTIVES to the dog by virtue of humanizing him was a bad idea. And you know what? I'll stand by that. Deal with actions and behaviors however you see fit, but assuming your DOG is out to usurp your authority (or is something that you have to worry about meeting every whim and desire of like an infant child)

Well, to use your words, both of those are some pretty danged silly theories. Based on not even the debunked science of dominance theory, but pure nonsense and fragile egos that have something to prove.

And both are a great way to make sure your relationship with your dog is never one you enjoy. I mean really, who wants to be around a creature you always have to worry about taking your authority away from you/trying to become your boss? (I do not believe that, but you know if you want to go with that silly theory, what possible enjoyment IS there?)

[SS Cressa]

Ik it doesn't matter. But putting the dog in the position that it feels that it has to bite seem dangerous. Yes you might have taught him, he is lower than you or you might have just taught him to be more sneakier.

 

Cress has a high prey drive and used to nip if you ran pass her or jump or put too much pressure on her... my brother thought he was "boss" and would teach her a lesson. All he taught her was NOT to nip straight on but to get him from the back. Oh, and she now has 0 respect for him.

 

Maybe I read your post wrong?

[brady's mom]

I'm just not sure if you're seeking advice on NILIF or if you're seeking validation for what has transpired the last couple interactions with Brick?

 

Over all, in many of your posts about Brick, you seem very overwhelmed and not sure how to handle the situation with the dog. I hope whatever routine you figure out helps you to be more at ease! Dog ownership shouldn't be miserable and I wish you and Brick the best of luck!

 

I do think telling a dog when he has to go the bathroom is a little nonsensical and too militant for my personal tastes. I would rather my dog tell me, because it saves my carpets and also I can judge any immediate change in his behavior (whether it's increasing in frequency or decreasing).

 

Edit: I hope that doesn't come off as rude. That's 100% not my intention!

[Maralynn]

Glad something is working for you. I too would be quite cautious about something that provokes biting.

 

It could just be that your newfound confidence is is, well, projecting confidence instead of an air of uncertainty.

[GentleLake]

 

I do, however, believe that the dog was in a mindset of "boss".

 

That's still anthropomorphizing. It's probably a little simpler than that.

 

I believe the dog was in the mindset of whining-and-barking-and-biting-gets-me-what-I-want-so-I'll-keep-doing-it-because-it's-been-working-so-well-for-me.

 

You've shown him (at least for the moment) that it no longer works, so he's trying something else.

 

I understand that the hairbrush incident was a reaction on your part (and I probably would have reacted the same way), but I think there are less adversarial ways to approach what you're trying to achieve. My concern is, as others have already said, that Brick may feel the need to become defensive if your behavior swings too far in the opposite direction in attempting to assert your own dominance over him.

 

If it were me, I'd be going for a more mutually satisfying relationship where you understand his behaviors for what they are (attempts to get the things he values) and work to modify them in ways he understands, that is, that he learns what behaviors earn him positive rewards (of food, attention, play, the opportunity to go outside, etc.) that he values.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Trainers,

 

Corrections aren't forever. Even the most severe (brush with a car, hot wire, horse kick) is likely to fade over time. Repeating a successful correction isn't always appropriate or effective. Ms. Aandi can't walk around with her hairbrush at the ready.

 

 

That said: Border Collies must know where they stand in the pack and no, its not a democracy.

 

It's okay to be a boss. And no that's not anthropomorphizing.

 

Yes, there are abusive bosses. I'd guess there are more abusers who aren't bosses and their failure is why they abuse.

 

I hope Ms. Aandi can read Julie Hill's book and learn how to seem like a boss. Visit your sheepdog friend and notice how he stands, how he approaches his dogs and how he presents himself to his dogs.

 

One correction is one correction. I'm glad it worked but learning how to handle Border Collies takes time and application.

 

Donald McCaig

[moosikins]

...

 

I do think telling a dog when he has to go the bathroom is a little nonsensical and too militant for my personal tastes. I would rather my dog tell me, because it saves my carpets and also I can judge any immediate change in his behavior (whether it's increasing in frequency or decreasing).

 

...

 

@Brady's Mom - I just wanted to note that I totally agree with you on the fact that this is "militant" to use all the time but I also think it's a good idea to train the dog to be able to go on request when it's needed. It's so useful to be able to open the door when I'm in a major hurry and ask her to go because then she's not miserable all day and I'm not trying to rush home to take her out before an emergency occurs (thankfully we haven't had accidents since she was like 14 or so weeks old because she's amazing, I take no credit for that). Obviously, this only works to a degree - either the dog has to go or he doesn't and there's no way to make them.

[urge to herd]

Gibbs pees on command, I trained him to do that for just the reason Moosikins gives. He makes it pretty clear when there's nothing in his bladder, and I respect that. Having to leave and knowing I'm going to be gone for several hours makes a pee-on-cue thing a necessity for us.

 

Ruth and SuperGibbs

[Maja]

Border collies gain a lot of inner calm and contentment knowing that the handler is in charge, they have been bred for this. We should shy from anthropomorphizing them as much as we should shy from making them a stimulus-and-response amoeba.

[Maralynn]

My dogs pee on command, too. I always have them pee before doing any sort of training outside. Or before bringing them inside. They also let me know when they need to pee of course but having it on command is sooooo helpful!

[brady's mom]

I wasn't talking about peeing on command for necessity in certain scenarios, because I can understand its use, I was just commenting on deciding when the dog has to go the bathroom all the time (which is how the OP seems to structure it, in my opinion) because of the "power struggle." Brady goes on command, too, for all the reasons you guys mention. I pretty much only use it for when I'll be gone for a long while and right before bed. Otherwise, he gets to let me know when he has to go, not me. I think deciding when a dog has to go to the bathroom outside of certain times, is just...too much. A dog's not trying to manipulate you just to go pee.

[urge to herd]

Good point, Kristi. I agree with the idea of micro-managing every little thing being too much. When you gotta go, you gotta go!

 

Ruth and SuperGibbs

[Aandi]

I'm actually with you and wasn't (not sure am now) sure how to word that. Basically, the situation we were in was Brick would "act" as if he had to go potty, I'd stand there for the 5 minutes waiting in once place (as to not be going exploring, on a walk, etc) and wait every....... you name it. Some nights he'd wake me up 5 times a night to "go potty". I was allowing him to "dictate" what was happening when. Not because he was "dictating" but because he had learned that if he behaved a certain way it would get him a result he wanted.

I guess that's it guys. That's all it is. The understanding that our relationship had come to just that. He had learned he could behave in this way or that to get results he wanted and I was clueless. Now I'm saying, "No, I know you're just dancing around to go potty because you want me to walk my happy butt outside while you sniff the air. I just took you. You're fine. Lay back down and go to sleep. I'll take you out in the morning." AND for him to know that it's my decision to do so and not his through his behavior.

Still not sure I'm making sense. The dog isn't afraid of me. I don't feel like I have to dictate his every move. I do, however, realize how I was allowing my every move to be "dictated" (for lack of a better term) and am not going to allow that moving forward. I have a brain. He's a dog. I'm going to use it and he's going to be fine not having "his own way". (Ie. learning to lay back down and go to sleep instead of incessantly whining until he got let outside. )

I wasn't talking about peeing on command for necessity in certain scenarios, because I can understand its use, I was just commenting on deciding when the dog has to go the bathroom all the time (which is how the OP seems to structure it, in my opinion) because of the "power struggle." Brady goes on command, too, for all the reasons you guys mention. I pretty much only use it for when I'll be gone for a long while and right before bed. Otherwise, he gets to let me know when he has to go, not me. I think deciding when a dog has to go to the bathroom outside of certain times, is just...too much. A dog's not trying to manipulate you just to go pee.

[Aandi]

This. Right on.

 

Border collies gain a lot of inner calm and contentment knowing that the handler is in charge, they have been bred for this. We should shy from anthropomorphizing them as much as we should shy from making them a stimulus-and-response amoeba.

[Aandi]

I had to look up NILIF. I didn't realize there was a "term" for that kind of training. Learn something new every day.

I guess it wasn't so much seeking validation as it was sharing having had an experience that led to a desired result. I was excited. Still am. I think Maralyn hit it on the head with the change in my perspective of the situation having given me a new confidence and that playing into positive results and interactions. (still trying to figure out how to do all the individual quotes, etc)

You're definitely right. I have been overwhelmed and I feel that's where i was falling short in handling Brick. I was constantly questioning myself. When I spoke to this trainer, I realized that I've let others' (not here. i pursued advice here) opinions of how to handle a dog sway me and had moved away from my natural way of doing things. He'd ask, "Why do you think you should do that?" and I'd say, "Well, I had a friend tell me they thought this.." All in all, I think that was the main problem. Brick was getting from me behavior that I had "implemented" not my behavior for who I am. I think it was definitely playing a part in all of our interactions. The trainer told me to do me. Be me. Handle him the way I saw fit. That if I was wrong, the results would show it for what it was. The dog would forgive me. I'd do better and life would go on.

"Me" isn't jumping out of bed every 2 hours to let a dog outside. "Me" isn't afraid to be stern in telling a dog to shut up and go back to sleep for fear of ...i dunno... being "dominant" or "uncaring" etc.

And you didn't come across rude

I'm just not sure if you're seeking advice on NILIF or if you're seeking validation for what has transpired the last couple interactions with Brick?

Over all, in many of your posts about Brick, you seem very overwhelmed and not sure how to handle the situation with the dog. I hope whatever routine you figure out helps you to be more at ease! Dog ownership shouldn't be miserable and I wish you and Brick the best of luck!

I do think telling a dog when he has to go the bathroom is a little nonsensical and too militant for my personal tastes. I would rather my dog tell me, because it saves my carpets and also I can judge any immediate change in his behavior (whether it's increasing in frequency or decreasing).

Edit: I hope that doesn't come off as rude. That's 100% not my intention!

[Aandi]

I'll check that book out.

About watching that handler, I think that was what made the light bulb light up regarding all of this. He wasn't even "trying" he was just being, commanding, and that's it. Watching him with Brick was so infuriating. No joke. Brick listened better to this stranger within 5 minutes than he has with me in all of my efforts over 10 months. He wasn't mean or aggressive, but he definitely was"in charge". Brick knew it and "respected" it. I think the most frustrating part for me was that I used to "behave" more like that handler and had moved away from that from hearing "you're strict", "you're not 'loving'", etc. I'm like..so you're telling me, I was doing fine and left that in the dust because I listened to people who have unruly dogs, because I couldn't handle some criticism.......

Dear Trainers,

 

Corrections aren't forever. Even the most severe (brush with a car, hot wire, horse kick) is likely to fade over time. Repeating a successful correction isn't always appropriate or effective. Ms. Aandi can't walk around with her hairbrush at the ready.

 

 

That said: Border Collies must know where they stand in the pack and no, its not a democracy.

 

It's okay to be a boss. And no that's not anthropomorphizing.

 

Yes, there are abusive bosses. I'd guess there are more abusers who aren't bosses and their failure is why they abuse.

 

I hope Ms. Aandi can read Julie Hill's book and learn how to seem like a boss. Visit your sheepdog friend and notice how he stands, how he approaches his dogs and how he presents himself to his dogs.

 

One correction is one correction. I'm glad it worked but learning how to handle Border Collies takes time and application.

 

Donald McCaig

[Aandi]

What do you mean by "the debunked science of dominance theory"? I don't ask in sarcasm or anything. Just curious about what you're referring to. haven't heard of a theory or in turn of one being debunked.

Well, to use your words, both of those are some pretty danged silly theories. Based on not even the debunked science of dominance theory, but pure nonsense and fragile egos that have something to prove.

[CptJack]

http://avsabonline.org/uploads/position_statements/dominance_statement.pdf

 

The man responsible for dominance theory to begin with later retracted his statements and findings and more studies were done (you'll have to track them down, I'm afraid, I 'm mobile - give me a few and I'll see if I can dig up all the links) but basically there is an entire thing based on the idea that wolves, and therefore dogs, form social heirarchies with dominance and submissive members and leaders and so on. The truth is, captive wolf packs kind of do, but most wild ones do not. The packs are made up of parents and off spring, and the 'dominance' present is really just a parent/young thing, nothing much more than that.

And dogs, feral dogs, form lose alliances but not packs and do not function as packs. They also do not HUNT primarily, or form that kind of relationship. Dogs are, primarily and first and foremost, scavengers. Not that dogs *don't* hunt, but they originally evolved eating human refuse, and left alone to hunt even the huntingest terrier out there would probably starve without access to, well, trash/leftovers/carrion.

[CptJack]

http://www.dogforums.com/dog-training-forum/159034-dominance-theory-debunked-would.html

 

Here. Look for Crantastic's first post. She saves me lots of work when I should be sleeping/in bed. And definitely read the AVSAB article i linked above. That one DOES cite references and the like.