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#41 BigD

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Posted 22 June 2005 - 10:55 AM

Ironhorse -

Make sure you get your "client" to read this thread. Get them to understand they are horrible for doing what they are doing. Dealing cash for lives. Pushing the breeding of innocent animals to make money. Preying on ignorant people with their snappy words and mis-information.

Make sure she knows how disgusted she has made many folks here.

I'm sure you will be so kind as to take care of this for your "client" as you have removed the quote above from their site so quickly. It was very nice of you do that...protect "them" if you will. "They" are a back yard breeder. If you had any sense you would take down that site and walk away from the gross display of a "business." You have nothing to loose...it's not like they paid you for your services.

Denise

#42 Denise Wall

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Posted 22 June 2005 - 11:13 AM

Geez, I hope what we're accomplishing here is NOT that we help educate this "breeder" on how to fix their web site so as not to sound like the puppy mill that they are.

The one border collie puppy mill tip-off people never seem to get though is the designer color breeding, e.g., merles. So I guess she's safe there no matter how many times we say it here :rolleyes:
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#43 Coloradogirl

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Posted 22 June 2005 - 11:18 AM

Uptown Sam looks like he is scared!! Just from the picture he looks as though he does not trust who ever is taking the pictures (maybe he is scared of the camera). That was one of the first things I caught as I was looking at the site.

Also what makes the last dog worth so much money? And why are the red pups more then the black and whites and why is one pup from red litter only $485.00, when the others are $800 and above?
Just curious if this is common practice among others who raise pups? (honest question cuz I really do not understand).

#44 juliepoudrier

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Posted 22 June 2005 - 12:49 PM

Originally posted by C Denise Wall:
The one border collie puppy mill tip-off people never seem to get though is the designer color breeding, e.g., merles. :rolleyes:

Well, if they got it then they would no longer be able to justify their choices, now would they? Better to turn a blind eye, you know?

Colorado,
People who breed for color will often price the pups at what the market will bear. I wouldn't be surprised if the pricier red pups were a darker red and therefore more "desirable." The pup that can produce quad merles (whatever the hell that is) is probably priced higher for that reason alone. Pups with "more perfect" markings (NOT a working mindset, mind you, but a conformation mindset) may also be priced higher. (Note I haven't gone back and looked at the site to see what prices go with what puppies, so this is a generalization, and besides I can't get into the mind of the person doing the pricing.) Have you ever noticed how even folks on these boards will go ga ga over the merles, or even some red dogs? Well, guess what? Breeders have noticed it to.

I know that AKC registerable dogs of "desirable" colors routinely sell for $1,000. The price alone could be a tip off as to the market this breeder is trying to reach.

J.

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#45 Annette Carter & the Borderbratz

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Posted 22 June 2005 - 02:33 PM

Nah, There was a black tri bitch for sale at $1000 and reds for less.

In a nutshell, puppies have a shelf life (age 6 to 12 weeks), like an airplane seat or a hotel room.

On an airplane 1 seat could sell for half as much as the less in the effort to launch the plane with as many seats sold as possible. Same with hotels (my field of expertise in business). I can sell higher end rooms (suites), median rooms, and economy ones. As the day goes on and I have rooms empty, the price drops and the median rooms could easily become economy etc. Price points are researched by trend and what the market will bear.

There is an economy market, a median market, and a high end market that these folks are targeting. It ensures that they don't keeps pups around for long and they maximize the dollars they can make.
So they don't sell pups for $500.00 or 600, or 700 or 800 flat like most people, they have tiered pricing, based on color and sex (and probably another load of BS generally)and that tier could change with the dynamics of a given litter (I mean PRODUCT).

Same idea as what Julie was presenting but more in depth even though a low down & dirty summary(because there were a couple of questions about it)They probably have a line of BS that goes along with that high price on the black tri girl pup. But you have to call to find out.

I've purposely compared these dogs to inanimate things that sit on the shelf much like anything at Walmart-because it's what they do.

#46 Annette Carter & the Borderbratz

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Posted 22 June 2005 - 02:39 PM

Quad merles? There is no such thing. Either a dog has a merling gene to pass on or it doesn't. And if it isn't obviously merle itself the chances are extremely slim (like winning a lottery) that that could happen (You'd have to have a merle with not very obvious merling and just be mistaken as to what the color of the dog really is- they don't happen often at all, almost never). Not only are Awesome Border Collies lacking in ethics they are clueless too.

#47 Annette Carter & the Borderbratz

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Posted 22 June 2005 - 04:51 PM

Gee it got real quiet...

Doesn't matter. it's not like we haven't said all this before.

#48 DeltaBluez Tess

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Posted 22 June 2005 - 05:35 PM

John aka Ironhorse,

>>The accolades of his trophy bloodline are documented literally throughout the Centuries." Miss Dolly, she of the $7,000,000 "Third Generation Grandfather," also had a "Second Generation Grandmother" who "won the same equivalency on the female side, titled, the 'The Working Witch,' consecutively two years." The Working Witch?<<

First of all, the WtCH is only awarded in ASCA. You get your WtCH in passing all three classes --started, open, advanced-- on ducks, sheep and cows in an arena trial. Some people say it is hard but I got my WtCH in two trials on one dog and on two other dogs was halfway to my WtCH in one trial. One dog, Mick, just barely had his flanks and he is halfway to his WtCH. Once you earn a WtCh you do not win it again...so explain how she got it two years in a row? You can compete in the class but once you earn a title you are not re-awarded it again.

Second, ASCA has the ASCA Nationals which ONLY AUSSIES are allowed to run. NO Border Collie is allowed to run. So how does the 'Third Generation Grandfather" win the National Stockdog Championship? Is he an Aussie, because I know ASCA will not let an Border Collie run at their Championships.

Third, there is no 1 Million dollar prize in ASCA.

For those of you that are curious, I run in Open USBCHA trials and also run in 2 ASCA trial a year, but my love is USBCHA trials

OK, let's say the breeder meant some other herding venue?

Not the USBCHA Nationals.

Maybe something overseas? I do not know of any dog that ran in the International --UK-- and won 7 times in a row and got 7 millions dollars.

It also mentions that Miss Dolly's half brother was the highest priced Border Collies sold at Red Bluff in 2004 for $10,500.00

Wrong!! That was a bitch named Lucy and she sold for $10,400. She is a red tri bitch and I have seen her run.

I know you do not own the Awesome Kennels but I wanted to point out some errors

Diane Pagel
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#49 IronHorse

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Posted 22 June 2005 - 06:09 PM

I just got home and am trying to catch up on all these postings.
Thanks for that information Diane
As for the information that many of you have been asking about all i can say is once again, I only built the website as far as the information goes I am not responsible for its content, I only entered what I was given. But I will make inquire about it.
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#50 BigD

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Posted 22 June 2005 - 06:23 PM

Ironhorse -

Take down the site. Tell them you have researched their statements and found many, many errors and you question their ethics. Thus you can have nothing to do with it.

Take it down. Yes, someone else will do it...but you can put a speed bump in this disgusting breeder's momentum.

Do what you can. And you CAN take down that site.

Denise

#51 Nik

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 01:18 AM

Ok first off I know this website stirs up quite a few raw emotions. It does for myself as well. But, give the guy a chance to be able to do a bit of research for himself. Afterall, he came here to learn more and share his own experiences and barely gets to introduce himself before he gets questioned about his ethics for putting together a website for someone else.

While I don't agree w/ the website, look at it from this point of view also. He has had one-on-one contact from this person. He knows none of you personally except through this board. And you are expecting him to take your "word" as research over what this person has told him.

You have given him a great starting point to learn but to be honest, if I had gotten some of the responses that he's gotten from this post lately, I wouldn't want to come back to try and educate myself more. Just don't come on so strongly that you scare him away. It may defeat the purpose of educating people about BYB's and Puppy Mills.

And to Ironhorse:
Welcome! I hope you find this board to be as helpful as I have found it to be. There are some great people here w/ some great advice.
Nicki

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#52 Carson Crazies

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 01:54 AM

I can honestly say that before I found this board I probably wouldn't have even *blinked* at a breeder who had several litters on the ground at the same time, or several a year. The reason for that is that before I came here I think I was pretty ignorant about the dog world in general (we all already know I was definately ignorant about Border Collies. No comments from the Peanut Gallery :rolleyes: ).

The culture of "those who shall not be named" has made it easy for the general populace to feel like if the dog has "papers" it must be good. Many people just aren't aware of what puppy mills are, and how they affect dogs and specific breeds.

IronHorse, I applaud your honesty and willingness to learn. If you've been feeling uncomfortable about the website then it's good that you're doing your homework and looking to find the answers you need. You have my support, and I'm sure that of the others here as well. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions I can help you with. Good luck, and keep working it out, my friend.
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#53 IronHorse

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 06:02 AM

Thank you Laura
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#54 DeltaBluez Tess

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 02:02 PM

John

I see that you updated the site on the erroneous info on Miss Dolly. (see my posting above)


I am glad that you were willing to listen about our concerns.

I hope you have as much fun with your dogs as we do with ours. This board is a great place to learn/brag/enjoy etc....welcome

Thanks
Diane~
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#55 SoloRiver

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 09:32 PM

It's rather telling that the URL of the sires/dams page is

http://www.awesomebo.../catalog.0.html

Catalog?

Excuse me while I go vomit.
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#56 Miztiki

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Posted 30 June 2005 - 05:04 AM

IronHorse, welcome to the BC boards!

Most or all of us were at one time ignorant about what the Border Collie breed is all about. As with anything in life, when you really educate yourself on a subject you find that many of the things you believed to be true simply aren't.

I've been gone for a while and haven't been able to read your posts, but others mentioned in this thread that you seem to be an intelligent and responsible kind of guy, so I'll take their word for it. Stick around here, do some research on the internet and you'll come to appreciate the Border Collie breed for what it really is. Over time you will understand why the people here are so passionate about them, and I'm guessing that you'll likely feel the same eventually.

Don't let our passionate feelings scare you off, ok?

#57 Annette Carter & the Borderbratz

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Posted 30 June 2005 - 05:22 AM

Melanie,

Not sure how familiar you are with building web sites but Catalog.html is a standard name given by html generator/editors that build generic sites for you and you fill in the info. If course most pros I know now still write pages in code, rarely using generators- if you can write in code then you have greater flexibility and can even get the page made faster with feature rich scripts.

A quick look at the source code of the home page tells me this was indeed created by a generator. As well as a few other things which I'll not post here.

Eileen, how did you find this page initially?

#58 IronHorse

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Posted 30 June 2005 - 08:53 AM

Diane; Yes some information has been removed that could not be substantiated at this time.
My dogs bring me great joy on a daily basis. I can only hope that I do the same for them.

SoloRiver; sorry to hear that you are ill, perhaps when your feeling better you can find the time to look up the definition of the word "catalog"

Miztiki; thank you for the welcome.I have found these boards to be quite useful and educational.
To be passionate about something is a quality that I admire, for from passion most often comes a more enlightened understanding as well as a broader Knowledgable database about that which one is passionate about.
Fanaticism on the other hand often times will cloud ones ability to see the difference.
I can ascertain between the two.
I assure you that passionate feelings will never "scare" me away from learning.

Annette; html generator/editors are quite commonly used both by "pros" and novices to create basic websites.
Personally I would much rather hear more of your rescue endeavors then your witch hunting endeavors.
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#59 MrSnappy

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Posted 30 June 2005 - 09:24 AM

Originally posted by IronHorse:
Fanaticism on the other hand often times will cloud ones ability to see the difference.

As does willful ignorance.

Coffee, anyone?

RDM
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#60 Annette Carter & the Borderbratz

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Posted 30 June 2005 - 10:03 AM

As a society, you cannot do rescue justice without reducing the number of puppies born by dogs that should not be bred. As long as people like this breed, dogs will need rescue and many of them will die because of the lack of space in rescue. This breeder is just making every rescuers hill harder to climb and so is your endorsement of her. So it is my job as an educator of rescue that everyone that may be ignorant that I encounter knows not to purchase a dog from breeders like this. If you doubt that BCs end up in shelters and die then perhaps you should visit your local shelter every once in a while and check petfinder.com for BCs in every state. You will see tons of them either in shelters or in rescue. Where do you think they come from? I challenge you to look around, not just once but often for the rest of your days and face the innocent comdemned.

Rename the file siresdams.html and you will stem the gag reflex in people. But I wouldn't want to tell you how to do your job- it just takes a sec to redo the links. I was just explaining that you didn't use catalog on purpose- it was just a generated page from a business web site template.

SoloRiver is a budding behavioral scientist (with degree in hand) so I think she passed 4th grade vocabulary.

RDM if I have another cup I'm likely to jump through the computer monitor.



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