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#21 BigD

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Posted 21 June 2005 - 06:29 PM

Hi Annette -

I'm involved with the Border Collie Rescue "club" here in Hawaii. (we have 2 that need homes now) There are a key group of about 4 of us that come to the "rescue" (literally) when there is a Border Collie in need. Fortunately, we don't have too many BYB's like this site on this island. However, we have to deal with the local pet store that fly's in dogs from Australia and charges $1200 for a puppy before you can even see the papers on the dog.

It's disgusting. I'm ready to email that BYB and just go off on them...but I need to walk away and come back when I'm not red in the face and disgusted...

Oh well...

who was it that said "lack of education = over population"

Denise

#22 Annette Carter & the Borderbratz

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Posted 21 June 2005 - 06:35 PM

Denise,
Gee & here I thought you lived in paradise- guess an island doesn't buffer you from the rest of the world today. I feel for you.

#23 IronHorse

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Posted 21 June 2005 - 06:57 PM

For the record
I am not a breeder,,nor do I plan on breeding.
However I do have 2 Border Collies and a 3rd one on its way.
I also have 4 other dogs that were all adopted by My wife and I from the local shelter.
I was asked if I were connected with the site and I said that i was,that i had built the site for the person,I have built a number of sites for a varity of businesses.I do however monitor that site and Know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the dogs that have been sold have all been placed in excellent homes.
It was not me who brought my business to these boards, nor would i represent myself falsely.
What that person does is perfectly legal and at least in this country she does have the right to pursue it.
This does not mean that I necessarily agree or disagree.
I come here for my own personal reasons to better educate myself.
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#24 Annette Carter & the Borderbratz

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Posted 21 June 2005 - 07:22 PM

Ok. Then we need to educate you on why purchasing Thunderbolt from her or a breeder like her (based on her site content soley) is a detrement to the BC breed as a whole. Yes what she does is legal and so is smoking cigarettes - neither is really healthy for individuals or society as a whole. But somebody is making money at others' very dear expense.

Would you care to hear the in depth reality? Or do you prefer to go on as you are? (Feeling like Morpheous here) You respect rescuers you say? Will you listen to us then with open eyes and heart? If you are here for education, you will get the very best because we care about your dogs and not like some corny dog food ad - we really do.

I don't want to see you get lit into because you seem really nice so I'm posting before that happens.

#25 IronHorse

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Posted 21 June 2005 - 08:15 PM

I would very much care to hear the in depth reality.
it was my involvement in the creation of the site that lead me to these very boards,not for this particular breeder but for my own personal ethics and developing philosphy towards the Border Collie Breed.
I will be perfectly frank here and now.
Due to the fact that I have learned a great deal about Border Collies during the process of creating that site I made a decision a month ago NOT to relinquish the domain nor the site until I personally learn more.
I give up my right to ask for the payment agreed upon when I contracted to make the site in the first place.My ethics are more valuable then any monetary gains.
I look forward to your opinions, I value them and believe that they could be of great help to me personally.
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#26 Eileen Stein

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Posted 22 June 2005 - 02:57 AM

I'll be glad to share my views about an operation like this, but may I ask a few questions first?

1. The site describes one of the brood bitches, Miss Dolly, as having a "third generation grandfather" who "won the National Stock Dog Trials Championship 7 consecutive years, paying 1 Million Dollars each time. He was excluded from participation thereafter." Wow -- that's quite a selling point. Could you please tell us more? Who are the dog and handler who won the $7,000,000? What exactly is the trial, when and where was it held, etc.?

2. You wrote, "I do however monitor that site and Know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the dogs that have been sold have all been placed in excellent homes." How could you possibly know that just from monitoring the site? Seriously, exactly how do you know?

3. You wrote, "I give up my right to ask for the payment agreed upon when I contracted to make the site in the first place. My ethics are more valuable then any monetary gains." Why did you feel that ethics required you to give up your right to ask for payment for making the site?

4. I'll be frank and say that it sounds to me as if you're more closely related to the proprietor of this operation than just her commercial web designer, but are trying to give a different impression. Is that the case?

Of course, you're under no obligation to answer these questions, but I hope you do -- I'm genuinely interested. I know you may feel you're being jumped on unfairly here, especially when you didn't volunteer anything about your connection with that site, but it's exactly BECAUSE an operation like that is legal that the power of public opinion and education is the only way of confronting it.

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#27 IronHorse

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Posted 22 June 2005 - 04:35 AM

To answer your questions to the best of my ability.
#1; this very accolade was something that brought concern to me and I have asked to be provided with the very information that you bring up in your question. I have yet to be supplied with those answers, but in my defense I have not added a single thing to the site since I asked for the information to back this statement up.

#2;I made this statement rashly and should of stated it differently.
I have been in weekly contact with the buyers of all 7 of the pups that have been sold due to the site since they have recieved the pups and have learned a great deal more about them,their reasons for purchasing the pups and their intentions for the wellfare of the pups.And so far from what I have learned all of these pups appear to have gone to responsible homes.

#3;Technically I still maintain ownership of the domain as well as the website and have the ability to remove it from the web if I make the decision that my personal ethics are being compromised.
By removing the site I would break my contract and therefore would not be subject to recieving payment for my work.

#4;I met this person 2 years ago when my wife and I were seeking to replace our BC of 16 years "Hannabul" who had passed due to natural causes. He was an unregistered BC that we had adopted from an Amish family.
I found this person from an advert that she had placed in a statewide publication "The Rural Missourian", My wife and I contacted her and made several visits to her establishment, which was located a few hours drive from our home.We viewed the enviroment and observed the parent dogs and were interviewed by her.After doing this we felt confident that the pups she was offering for sale were as advertized and met our requirements.At that time we purchased Lightfoot and Thunderbolt.
Since that time we had periododically (approx every 6 months) been in contact either by phone or mail to converse as to the condition of Thunderbolt and Lightfoot with her.
In Feb of this year due to an unfortunate accident that I will not elaborate on in this reply we lost Lightfoot.
After our initial grief over his loss we decided that we desired to fill the void that his absense created.
Being quite satisfied with the person and her dogs I proceeded to contact her and ask if she was planning on having any new litters in the near future.She replyed that she did have some upcoming litters at which time we once again traveled to her establishment to view them.This was in March.The litter she had at that time had no pup that we were interested in and it was at this time that our conversation lead to her desire to have a website created, which I told her I could do for a price. We made a contract and that is when I proceeded to build the site.
Of course since that time we have been in contact frequently.
But during the course of developing her website I have learned a great deal more about the breed, which brings me to this point.
So I would have to say that from beside the mutual interest in the dogs that NO I am not closely related to this person.
I hope this answers your questions.
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#28 Denise Wall

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Posted 22 June 2005 - 05:23 AM

So I would have to say that from beside the mutual interest in the dogs that NO I am not closely related to this person.

I'm glad to read this because you seem like a nice, responsible person from what I've read and to me I have no doubt this is a puppy mill.

As someone who's interested in why normal-seeming intelligent people don't catch on to these puppy millers' tactics, I have to ask - did it not seem to you like she had too many dogs to properly raise all those puppies? General care aside, how in the world could that many adult dogs get proper attention, let alone all those puppies properly socialized? And I don't mean what was *said* about it (these people are masters at PR), I mean what you observed.

Thanks for any insight.

Denise
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#29 IronHorse

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Posted 22 June 2005 - 06:19 AM

From my observations I would have to say that NO it did not appear to me that having 8 adult dogs and 3 or 4 younger dogs ( not sure of their ages)
were in any way being neglected as far as attention to them was concerned. I know of 2 people that assist her on a very regular basis,caring for and working with those dogs.

As for the litters, again I would have to say that from what I observed 3 out of 4 breeding bitchs all having their litters reasonably close together did not seem out of the ordinary nor did i see it as unreasonable concidering that those litters were being constantly attended to all the times that I saw them.
I realize that the numbers could of been much higher,but in these listed litters the total I believe was 15 pups.
Not being an "expert" I can only give my novice opinion that I believe that one person working daily with 15 pups can do a pretty good job of socialization with pups that typically have gone to their new homes at 8 to 10 weeks of age.
Speaking of my own dogs and the comments I have personally heard from others who have bought( and yes I will use the word "BOUGHT" and not adopted here)from this person that everyone I have spoken with and including myself have been 100% pleased and some very impressed with the temperment and social behavior of the Dogs that they have purchased.

Her kennel facility is as good as many and better then most that I have witnessed in my 53 years of walking this earth,and I have seen quite a few.
At her request No pictures of her property nor her facility are posted due to her feeling that would be an invasion of her privacy.
She prefers to talk with and get to know abit about a person prior to inviting them into her home and onto her property, and as far as I know all who have purchased dogs from her have recieved that invitation.Having had dogs stolen from her property I can and do respect her reasons.
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#30 Annette Carter & the Borderbratz

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Posted 22 June 2005 - 06:36 AM

IronHorse,

I'm assuming you've read the FAQ "Why Pick on Me, Just want a Pup". We have also had an indepth discussion on High Volume Breeders VS Low Volume Breeders with both breeding to a working standard in the Politics and Culture section. There is alot of good stuff there but maybe there are some gaps between the two so I'll do my best to be complete here and clear.

The Border Collie (each breeding individual)has been selected for hundreds of years to work (herd) the way it does (See Rebecca's posts in the FAQ for a definition). In order to know that a breeding prospect has these essential qualities to pass on to future Border Collies, each potential breeding candidate must be tested. What is testing? Day in Day out laborous farmwork (Endurance, a dog must work a full work day) and trialing because it sets up situations on the farm and the dog must complete the tasks. Trialing gives us a reference for comparison of any trialed dogs so we can say dog #35 is better than dog # 52 ON THE DAY OF THE TRIAL. Extensive trial results will determine the better trial dog. It allows breeders to see other trial dogs and see what dogs out there are a compliment to their own breeding prospects or proven working dogs. Dog #52 may not beat #35 every trial or very often for that matter but he may have certain qualities in his work that are lacking in another person's working bitch and therefore a good compliment (there are lines that are proven crosses, yadda yadda -won't go into that here it's irrelevant).

The point is that if any single dog isn't worked rigorously and under various conditions and circumstances and proven every day- then it shouldn't be bred. Period. It doesn't matter if that dog's grandsire was the only dog that ever won anything for 10 years in a row (That statement on the site is preposterous BTW-If you believe that I have a strip of desert that sits on the largest oil reserve in the world, for you $10,000 a bargain!) Here is why: For as many generations as BCs are selected for working ability- it is super easy to decimate it in just 2 generations of bad breeding. If the bitch bred to the 7 time million dollar purse winner was mediocre or traditionally made a bad cross (mediocre more likely)- you think if someone made 7 million with one dog they wouldn't breed it to death to anything with money? Ok Mediocre, then there would be resulting pups of nice and mediocre quality. The thing is, those pups won't turn on to stock until they are adolesents (most likely). So how do you know which of the 6 is your next 7 million dollar dog? You keep them all or you place them where you keep an eye on them- where you will know what happens to them and any of their potential children. If you keep them the dogs that don't work out, or don't show improvement on your line eventually get sold to perhaps people who need to bring on a decent worker for their farm but maybe don't breed or if they aren't cut out for the work all day then they go to pet homes.

On the other hand, if a breeder has two good proven working dogs and sells the culls (non working pups) to pet homes with no contracts, no proper screening, no way of preventing the pups from producing further down the line, and those pups are bred (generally by people like your breeder) by people who do not prove those pups or any other dogs they have and what they get is a dog that looks like a BC, might have a few quirks, might be intelligent, might be hyper, might end up aggressive, or perhaps fearful of man, maybe a well rounded dog -but not so much a "BC" as it's parents were and the following generation degrades a bit more, and the following more, etc. And the breed is ruined. In the meantime, the breeder who just breeds cause she likes the dogs and needs money- let me give you the picture of what is happening to many of those resulting pups here:

They reach adolesence and between 5 and 15 months old they are being turned into shelters because the average dog owner doesn't know what to do with them- they become destructive (and often abused because of it) they don't stop or settle in the house because they have no outlet for their energy (they aren't a cute baby anymore). Or they lack leadership and assume a leadership role in the house and start biting people. We've seen it here! We've helped many people that come here with dogs that won't let people into their houses! Or control their children with dominance displays!

Rescuers take these dogs from shelters every day and try to rehabilitate them and select very carefully where to place them but guess what?

We can't keep up with the problem. There isn't enough space in rescue for all of them so often we watch these dogs die. Does the breeder know in most cases? No they don't. They only know they make puppy owners happy and take the money to the bank. Meanwhile, a young dog gets dumped off on the side of the road out of a pick up truck in NC and gets rolled over chasing it's people down, rescue gets it and foots the $1500 bill for leg surgery-if the dog is lucky enough to be rescued.

It's happening all over the place and it's absolutely sickening and the people responsible refuse to see it -because it's out there for everyone to see.

I will address what is specifically wrong with your breeder here:

1. She doesn't prove her dogs as working dogs. If she did she'd prove it on her site.

2. She makes false claims- I doubt anyone has made a cool million off a single dog let alone 7 and trialing a winning dog at age 10 is far fetched as well.

3. She says her dogs are tested hip, eye etc. - where is the proof of certification? These things are generally public record. Offer the OFA rating to back the claim up.

4. She claims National and International trial Champions - none listed on the pedegrees I saw.

5. She sells to anyone who can fork out the money and there is no listed screening process & no contract protecting the well being of the pups she sells. No restricting of breeding of the pups.

6. BCs are never bred for color! And merles and dilutes are dangerous in the hands of people that breed who don't understand color genetics. Did YOU know that merle to merle breedings can produce, blind, deaf, pups or even dogs with missing eyes or born with their guts hanging out? I bet her buyers don't. She is specifically targeting a "market" with her color breeding. IMO blue merles are generally more "glued to the ceiling" than your average BC. In fact my Merle Sheltie is about as glued to the ceiling as a poorly bred sport BC (Yes this means he's a nut case-but I love the squirt). So if active BCs generally land themselves in shelters (or dead)out of normal owners homes, what is going to happen with a boom in merles that noone knows what to do with?

7. The verbage she has on the bottom of the page about adopting from shelters& rescues is LIP SERVICE. If she felt so strongly about it, she wouldn't breed because she has no ethic as a breeder and her dogs are not breeding quality.

She is SOUNDING ethical but not ACTING ethically. In my book, that is a con.

You have had her dogs. Did she show you OFA results on the parents? How about CERF? Was Thunderbolt CERFed? It's not expensive.

I'm sure there is lots I've missed and if you have questions, please ask & in the meantime, I will continue to think about the subject.

#31 Annette Carter & the Borderbratz

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Posted 22 June 2005 - 06:59 AM

Oh dear..

It is very laborous to give 26 border collies the attention they need. 3 people could not do an adequate job of it unless there were like 1000 head of sheep that needed working over an 8 hour period. Doing agility, I could not train 11 young or adult dogs in one day.

AND raise 15 puppies, Puppies are a full time job in themselves. I had my hands full with 3 or 4 in a litter years ago.

Family can help (my hubby tries to help me train the dogs) but generally they are not qualified to do so, unless they are all dog handlers.

Granted, you can make it look good for company but from experience, I'd say she's bitten off way more than she can chew. Kennels are only a proper place for dogs if they work stock all day long-no matter how clean you keep them. And even then I wouldn't have more than my bed can hold but that's just me. Seriously, it most important to stimulate a BCs mind and you can't do that by kenneling it other than for sleep or temporary holding until the dog can be worked.

#32 prosperia

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Posted 22 June 2005 - 06:59 AM

Why are pups from the same litter priced so differently?
One was $450, while its Bro/sis, was $1000, and another $825. At that age, what could possibly make one worth that much more than the other?
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#33 Sue R

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Posted 22 June 2005 - 07:07 AM

Just a slightly connected question - I have once before heard reference to "National Stock Dog Trial Championship" with regards to someone's claim of winning such an event.

Does anyone have any idea what this is? My searches show that "National Stock Dog Registry" is a multi-breed registration organization, and any other reference I find seems to lead primarily to English Shepherds and/or Australian Shepherds.

Is this even a *real* event, or just a figment of someone's imagination? Anybody know?

I think that if someone makes some of the claims made on the website being described, that person has either been very misled or ...
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#34 Annette Carter & the Borderbratz

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Posted 22 June 2005 - 07:08 AM

I will tell you what I know about marketing and yield management if you like...

This is what it is- yield management.

#35 Denise Wall

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Posted 22 June 2005 - 07:22 AM

Here's a perspective that I feel is important to look at as regards the future of the working border collie. All the other issues aside:

Ironhorse, you seem like an excellent home for a border collie puppy. Maybe a home someone like me would like to sell a puppy to. Your breeder, who does not breed dogs proven to actually work, has now stolen a good puppy home from someone who breeds dogs who do actually work. If all her pups are sold to these great homes as you say, then all those people also would not be buying pups bred by working border collie breeders who are walking the walk, not just talking the talk.

This is not an inconsequential scenario. I see good working border collie breeders all over the US breeding less because puppy mill, BYB and sport border collie breeders are stealing the homes for their properly bred puppies. What does this bode for the future working border collie? You do the math.

PS I have not bred a litter in over five years.
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#36 Annette Carter & the Borderbratz

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Posted 22 June 2005 - 08:02 AM

Look up National Stockdog trial on google.

It's ASCA and they do give out lots of Championships- Bouviers, Beardies, Shelties, GSDs all dogs who could never successfully compete in USBCHA. No purses in the regs though- except junior handler confomation.

#37 juliepoudrier

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Posted 22 June 2005 - 08:42 AM

Originally posted by C Denise Wall:
Here's a perspective that I feel is important to look at as regards the future of the working border collie. All the other issues aside:

Ironhorse, you seem like an excellent home for a border collie puppy. Maybe a home someone like me would like to sell a puppy to. Your breeder, who does not breed dogs proven to actually work, has now stolen a good puppy home from someone who breeds dogs who do actually work. If all her pups are sold to these great homes as you say, then all those people also would not be buying pups bred by working border collie breeders who are walking the walk, not just talking the talk.

This is not an inconsequential scenario. I see good working border collie breeders all over the US breeding less because puppy mill, BYB and sport border collie breeders are stealing the homes for their properly bred puppies. What does this bode for the future working border collie? You do the math.

PS I have not bred a litter in over five years.

This bears repeating, so I've quoted the whole thing. This is what I alluded to but did not elaborate on in the high-volume breeder thread in the Politics section. Flooding the market with nonworking pups (or pups that are at least complete unknowns with respect to working ability) takes away potential homes for pups being bred by responsible working breeders.

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#38 nancy in AZ

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Posted 22 June 2005 - 08:53 AM

Originally posted by Annette & the Borderbratz:
IronHorse,

I'm assuming you've read the FAQ "Why Pick on Me, Just want a Pup". .

(Snip of post that has tears rolling down my cheeks).

Annette, thank you for taking the time to so thoroughly, thoughtfully and eruditely deliniate what is wrong with BYB and professional puppy-millers. I hope that your post can be preserved in the FAQs or the "Read this first" section.

#39 Eileen Stein

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Posted 22 June 2005 - 10:04 AM

IronHorse, thanks for your reply. It's pretty mindboggling that a website developer would even know the names of his client's customers, let alone be in touch with those customers on a weekly basis about the pups they've bought. But I won't ask you any more questions -- don't want you to feel like you're being cross-examined, and questioning an anonymous person is an exercise in futility anyway.

I hope you will read what others have said so far. It may seem repetitious, but I'll try to tell you why a website like that one brings sadness to the heart of any right-thinking person who values the border collie. First, I'll assume that you read the first post in this General Border Collie Discussion forum -- the one that says "Welcome . . . READ THIS FIRST." That will give you basic background. Border collies are not awesome because they have "unusual blue/black ticking" or because they make "Wonderful pets." Many dogs have ticking and most dogs make wonderful pets, loved and regarded as the best dog in the world by their owners. Border collies are awesome because they are the product of rigorous breeding for a specific, very demanding task. That kind of breeding has produced a dog with truly awesome capabilities. If that rigorous breeding is discontinued -- if dogs are bred just because they're nice dogs, not because they've demonstrated working excellence -- then the unique qualities of the border collie breed are soon lost. The mix of traits and abilities required to keep the breed what it is is too exceptional, volatile and complex to continue on without rigorous selection pressure for it at every generation.

Now, what can we tell about your client from her website? We see that she has bred three litters since March 1 (make that four, if your little Lady Jasmine is from her breeding). That may be a "small, select kennel" compared to the Hunte Corporation, but it's not a small, select kennel by working border collie standards. Not many good breeders would have that many litters in a year, let alone on the ground at the same time.

We also see that she doesn't know much about working ability or place it very high in her breeding objectives. Her dogs are all described with empty puffery -- they're affectionate, loving, exuberant, warm, demure, charismatic, handsome. Yeah, but are they trained stockdogs, what kind of work do they do, have they been trial-tested -- we're told nothing about that. And the pedigrees given are remarkably uninformative -- most of them have nothing but the dog's name and number, and these are not dogs whose numbers would be well-known to anyone. Whose Ben, whose Tweed, whose Gael, whose Brite? No way of knowing. The attempts to make them sound worth having all center on their remote ancestors. "Prestigious Zachariah is a descendent of full imported stock; ABC, ISDS affiliated. . . . The accolades of his trophy bloodline are documented literally throughout the Centuries." Miss Dolly, she of the $7,000,000 "Third Generation Grandfather," also had a "Second Generation Grandmother" who "won the same equivalency on the female side, titled, the 'The Working Witch,' consecutively two years." The Working Witch? I suppose she must mean the grandmother had a WTCH title, but she doesn't seem to know enough to know what that means, and got it garbled. I start banging my head against the keyboard. I wonder why people buy puppies based on stuff like this.

Your client's website has sections about the border collie breed, and about puppy raising, that are largely cobbled together from other sites, including ours. In our "Border Collie Characteristics" section, for example, we say, "The true Border Collie is known by how it works sheep and cattle, and by no other standard." She says, "The standard for the Border Collie is how it works livestock and no other standard." We say, "Dogs are a commitment. Before you acquire a Border Collie puppy, be sure you want to spend two years training and thirteen more enjoying a highly energetic dog that anticipates your every move, shares your every joy, comforts all your sorrows, and beats you in every race." She says, "Border Collies are a commitment. Before you acquire a Border Collie puppy be sure you want to spend two years of training and 12 more of enjoying a highly energetic dog that will anticipate your every move, share your every joy and is always on the go." But I guess the casual puppy shopper thinks these sections are a sign that she really knows her stuff.

Finally, and worst of all from my point of view, she is marketing these puppies for other people to do the same thing she's doing. Why else would her website contain this "quote" from one of the pups in her "Featured Litter for June": "I'm told I'm really cute and mommy shere says when I get older I'll be able to sire quad red merle puppies that look like my brother spur in Idaho - and maybe, just maybe, even a blue merle like my daddy bailey can produce. I can be a daddy to reds, chestnuts, merles, and perhaps even a sable. I'm so awesome!" Yeah, buy this puppy and you too can start flooding the market with rainbow border collies.

It's so, so sad.

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#40 Eileen Stein

Eileen Stein

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Posted 22 June 2005 - 10:30 AM

Correction: It was puppy #B1 to whom that "quote" was attributed on your client's website, not one of the pups from the "Featured Litter for June."

But I've just checked the website again, and I see the quote has already been removed. Now that's service!

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