Non-AKC agility

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

How many times now have we heard, there's lots of AKC agility in my area but almost nothing else? This is probably the number one excuse I've heard for someone to buy from an AKC breeder or decide to register with the AKC.

 

I am not in the agility scene - my only real contact is through my friends, two of whom actually do succeed in keeping their dogs busy (and attaining some prestige in the sport) with non-AKC events only. But I know there truly are areas where alternate venues are completely or under represented.

 

My question is, what makes clubs decide to put on an AKC trial versus another venue? And is there any way we can actively encourage clubs to offer more non-AKC events?

[Caroline]

I think one of the problems is that AKC is so big. There were so many AKC clubs to start with, so they have more groundwork already laid, so to speak. I was in a club that was not AKC first but did help in some conformation shows years ago (14). They decided to do USDAA agility, the requirements for holding trials are listed on each website for the supporting organization. USDAA used to require holding one event per year, now I think it is two, if you want to be "sanctioned" by them. Some clubs can't manage the two events, not enough volunteers etc. NADAC has its own requirements, and so does AKC and I am sure UKC does too. Because AKC is supported more frankly because there are more of "those people" I think that is why there are more AKC events. I don't care for them, they run agility inside on mats often and it is too stressful on joints, in my opinion.

The way to help offer more alternatives is to find out what is required from USDAA, NADAC, and others, and offer to help with all that.

Caroline

sorry it is so long.

[Rave]

People I talk to that do AKC do so mainly for breed recognition. It also sometimes just depends on what venue people want to run. The 3 main org's are very different. Even if I wasn't anti-ACK, the courses are horrible and they only offer 2 runs a day. But if people don't have the speed or focus to run USDAA or NADAC, then AKC is right for them.

 

BTW, USDAA doesn't require two trials a year, but they do charge a small fee if you only hold one.

[Caroline]

Thanks its been a long time since I did agility. I agree with your comments on AKC>

Caroline

[Howdyjabo]

I know this is potentially dangerous............

 

But what about having non AKC events-speutered dogs only--- at small local trials.

Have USBCCA support them-- but they MUST make money for herding activites for the club(or the person putting on the trial or supplying stock or for the finals ect ect).

 

It would be sorta harmless if all the dogs were speutered, a source of income, and it would get pet owners out to see and participate where they can also see a trial.And increase membership... ?

 

And breeders could have a good system in place to sell dogs that can be appreciated for their talents..... but not bred specifically for those talents-

 

And maybe even a herding class/ that is just for speutered hobby dogs. So they don't feel they need the AKC level trials- so they can play with herding.

 

Basically get the pet and hobby world to support the working dogs--- as they should. Without the risk of having them warp the breed by breeding unprooven dogs- and stop them from supporting AKC.

[Rave]

I don't think that'll have the impact you'd want. All week at (agility) Nationals, I heard about dozens of sport-bred litters currently available and many, many more planned. It'll be near impossible to change the mindset of the die-hard agility competitor who wants a litter from the dog who won/placed well in Nationals. Now an information booth at an event like that would reach many more sport BC owners than you'd ever reach anyway else.

 

There's already numerous sporting events on every weekend in the Spring and Fall (and well into the winter and summer as well); there'd be very little turnout since any given weekend you'd be going up against 1-2 other local trials.

 

-Laura

[kelpiegirl]

In my neck of the woods, I am fortuntate to have enough USDAA trials within driving distance to go to. I think clubs do more AKC, because they are offshoots of other all breed clubs. Many conformation clubs like to get agility titles on breed dogs, and people just know the AKC well. USDAA trials imo I just a better experience, and based on the dog being an athlete, rather than the akc registered dog getting titles.

Julie

[airbear]

This is probably the number one excuse I've heard for someone to buy from an AKC breeder or decide to register with the AKC.

 

Well, that's rubbish. I have an ILP on Bear, who may or may not be an aussie, and he's from the SPCA. A CBCA/ABCA dog can get an ILP very easily, so long as it's neutered. Once you have an ILP, you can do AKC performance events. (Note: I got the ILP to do obedience with Bear, but later found out about ASCA, so we did our obedience through ASCA).

 

My question is, what makes clubs decide to put on an AKC trial versus another venue? And is there any way we can actively encourage clubs to offer more non-AKC events?

 

My $0.02 (and I only do AAC, NADAC and USDAA) - AKC only has two classes in their program - Standard and Jumpers. This is a lot easier for a new club to host than, say, USDAA, where typically a club offers 6-8 classes over a weekend at each level (Starters, Advanced, Masters). That requires a lot of course builders, volunteers, and ring crew.

 

I've also heard that AKC is the only game in town for a lot of folks. Maybe it stems from obedience clubs, who now offer Rally and agility to expand/maintain their membership. I've done AKC courses in practice and they are not my cup of tea. The course times are so slow, and qualifying (at least at the lower levels) is pretty easy. But I have to say, they do a much better job marketing their program than the other associations. Funny what money can do...

[bobh]

I do naddac Usdaa and akc with my aussie. Nadac is by far the most unorganised of the three My dog is in elite and can basicly run the course with out me. Not challanging!!

Usdaa only 1or 2 trials that I can drive to that does not need me to sleep in motel

courses are nice lots of games high A-Frame jump hights are high. No limit on entries . Agood thing.

Asca very very very very diorganised.

 

Akc The most trials in my area. Akc is very org,

and isthe most TECH.

bobh

[tessa_s212]

I refuse to compete in AKC for reasons I have already stated on this board. AKC is becoming more and more dangerous all in the name of competition and to make things challenging. I've seen and heard about many dogs getting hurt in AKC due to the sharp turns and ugly angles. It becomes a very sad thing when competitors will risk their dogs just for a blue ribbon and self recognition.

 

With that said, I compete in NADAC, CPE, and UKC. UKC is nicer for my slower dogs, but I enjoy NADAC and CPE much more. The sad thing is, I am seeing more AKC judges that are also starting to be CPE judges.... CPE courses sometimes are too ugly for my taste. NADAC is what I compete in most. It is challenging, fun, and overall a very nice atmosphere. We've gotten some really great judges at our trials, and our regular competitors are a blast!

 

I just think people compete in AKC agility because that is where your name can be flaunted. If you have a top winning AKC dog, it seems everyone knows your name. Agility shouldn't be about that, it should be about having fun with your dog.

[Northof49]

AKC is becoming more and more dangerous all in the name of competition and to make things challenging. I've seen and heard about many dogs getting hurt in AKC due to the sharp turns and ugly angles. It becomes a very sad thing when competitors will risk their dogs just for a blue ribbon and self recognition.

__________________________________________________

 

Sometimes, and I mean sometimes, how dogs/handler run courses makes a huge difference. A fellow AAC Judge has a really great AAC Masters jumpers course that she has modified and used several times, and with the exception of one trial, where all the Masters Handlers absolutely butchered the course and complained about how bad it was and how horrible the angles were, at all the other trials, the course was handlered correctly and was really a nice flowing course for both dog and handler. The trial where they butchered it up so badly, the handlers asked her how she intended the course to run. After the trial, when they reviewed the course and how it was designed to be handled, they realized it was them and their poor handling, not the course itself. I have certainly run some not so nice courses over the years, however, I have always been able to handle them so I can smooth the lines out for my dogs, whereas the other handlers don't.

[Alaska]

Our local club (NADAC agility, UKC obedience, APDT rally) is considering adding some AKC events. When I expressed my dismay and gave my reasons, I was told that for people (with purebred dogs) who want multi-sport versatility titles, AKC is the only way to go, especially if tracking is one of your sports.

 

I didn't have a good answer for that, since I'm not the kind of person who's in it for the titles.

 

I recently heard, from someone who should know, that the reason AKC (and breed clubs in general) got started is that back in the dark ages the general wisdom was that purebred dogs were aberrations and mutts were healthier, smarter, longer-lived, etc. The purebred contingent wanted to show that their dogs were talented too, so they started breed clubs and put on events to make their case.

[Shetlander]

Originally posted by rtphokie:

I don't think that'll have the impact you'd want. All week at (agility) Nationals, I heard about dozens of sport-bred litters currently available and many, many more planned. It'll be near impossible to change the mindset of the die-hard agility competitor who wants a litter from the dog who won/placed well in Nationals. Now an information booth at an event like that would reach many more sport BC owners than you'd ever reach anyway else.

I think this kind of educational approach is a great idea. Before I came on this board I never came across such a pursuasive argument about why you should breed only proven working dogs and why those pups could go on to excel in sports, even if they weren't from proven agility dogs. Of course, not everyone will be convinced of this. And it will help to keep the tone educational and non confrontational. If people feel they or their current dogs (or the fact that they participate in certain venues or sports) are being called 2nd class or worse, then they're much, much less likely to listen to even the best reasons for choosing their next dog from working parents.

 

Not everyone who does AKC is in it for the recognition. For one thing, there are hoardes of participants and only the most talented and skilled are going to truly stand out. Most are just doing AKC for fun and run the courses in a way that is not dangerous to their dogs.

 

Also, for a lot of people AKC really is the main game around. I'm able to do some CPE because I'm willing to travel. USDAA is virtually nonexistant and NADAC is even less common. UKC is very pleasant and encouraging, but I often don't care for their courses which can lack flow. There will always be hyper competitive handlers though I admit some venues bring that out more than others.

 

Liz

[bobh]

I must say that Akc Courses can Be tight,but have yet to run on an unsafe course. Iwould not run my dog if he was not trained to do turns. I would say if you train your dog the course should be safe,

It is the handlers job to draw the dogs path!!!!

hopefully you draw a safe path.

BobH

[BigD]

We only have AKC here in Hawaii. The obedience clubs here have been around for 50+ years. Agility, on these islands, has been around for 2 years. Yes, 2. I kid you not.

 

Some of the rebels in the obedience clubs became interested in agility (something cool happening on the mainland!) and got one of the clubs to OK an agility program. The other club followed suit a year later.

 

Now, after 2 years of this, some of the rebels in agility want to split off and form their own club and run USDAA.

 

The AKC agility was just an obvious extension of the club. The MAIN reason is insurance. There was no need to host a differnt type of trial - and the stuffy obedience folks probably wouldn't support it anyway.

 

I'm one of the rebels that is interested in USDAA. I've never handled in a trial but have been training my dogs for almost 2 years in agility. There are SO MANY dogs out there without ILP's (obviously can't get one either) that want to run agility so we want to fill that void. We also don't want to support AKC for other reasons. However, for anyone on these islands that wants to currently compete in agility - you have to have a registered dog or one that you can try to ILP.

 

We all know it's going to take a lot of money (no club to fund the purchasing of all the equipment - which costs a FORTUNE to ship to Hawaii!), no club that is already insured, no club that has an equipment trailer, an "in" with the permit department, tents, cones for numbers, etc, etc. It all adds up and is very, very hard to establish with such a small base of people.

 

I beleive that is why you see so many "once AKC, always AKC." The larger cities, populations will find the people/funds to set up their own club. But when it's limited in participation as it is - you don't have much choice.

 

(I'd still rather have sheep dog trials out here - more than anything else!!!! ugh!)

 

Denise (you want to know how sheltered we are here? Today, a handler from the mainland - with mainland trained dogs of course - had Hawaii's first double Q!)

[Wayne]

I trialed in AKC events for a couple of years. My time is very limited and after years of chasing horse shows all over the place, I vowed to limit my travel for agility to about two hours. Even if I extended the travel, AKC offers many more trials then the other organizations. My dog is not AKC registered but he does have an ILP. He's from working stock, we work sheep regularly, but I (and my dog) also enjoy agility. I do agility because of/for my dog. I didn't get my dog for agility. I'd venture a guess that the overwhelming majorty of the particpants at an AKC or any agility trial are there for the fun of it. Certainly there are those who are breeding for agiltiy and want to be a world team member, but the is a handful at a trial for 400-500 dogs and their handlers.

 

I also agree that the courses need to be handled! If your dog knows where he's going next (because you gave him a cue) he'll turn safely and you will also have a faster time. In fact, that's a lot more predictable and controllable than some moves I've seen some sheep make!

[Rave]

I have friends who've competed (and done well) at AKC Nationals and who have also done USDAA agility. I've seen firsthand how tight AKC courses have slowed down some dogs overall. I've also been told firsthand by a friend who did well at AKC Nationals that the USDAA Regional she went to was more competitive (quality-wise, not attitudes) than AKC Nationals (her words, not mine). I've also heard others who went to both USDAA and AKC Nationals say it is no contest, USDAA is by far more competitive as far as the level/quality of competition.

 

-Laura

[Eileen Stein]

The AKC would like to monopolize dog events. Thus, when they saw agility as having growing appeal to the dog-owning public, they took it over. Because they have a big infrastructure in place, smaller organizations like the NADAC and USDAA -- which could otherwise have grown and developed along with their sport -- could not compete effectively. While they still have vibrant programs, there are probably few areas where the AKC doesn't have more events, which stimulates agility enthusiasts to register with the AKC for agility, which in turn increases the market share and dominance of AKC over the organizations which did the groundwork in developing and popularizing the sport initially. Over time it gets harder and harder then to encourage clubs or individuals to pursue non-AKC venues, because AKC will have succeeded in making itself the definer of status and achievement in the agility world.

 

It's a ruthless market model, which has been repeated in other sports (to say nothing of breeds). Unfortunately, it has the potential to hurt more than just the USDAA and NADAC. When one organization is this dominant in the dog world (or any aspect of the dog world), it can shape its future. The less competition it has -- the less competition you'll allow it to have by your choice of what events you support -- the more we'll be stuck with the shape it chooses to impose.

 

Yes, there are AKC-affiliated clubs which have been helpful to dog owners. That does not mean the dog owners could not have been helped just as much by assistance and expertise offered under other auspices. And it's a far cry from saying -- as has actually been said to me -- "If it weren't for the AKC, most pet border collies would be in rescue or euthanized!" But I guess that's what people can come to believe.

[BigD]

Actually Eileen, I disagree with one point you make. I think the very act of the AKC taking over agility to start with and keeping their offering to only 2 runs - Jumpers and Standard - has and will continue to force people to look elsewhere for agility venues.

 

NADAC, USDAA, etc offer much more in terms of competition, runs, games, fun, team work, etc. I think that the draw of these "other" events is strong enough to get folks to break away and work VERY hard to gain access to other trials - not just AKC.

 

This is exactly what happened here. I'm not sure if we will have enough money or man-power to get a new club started for USDAA, but we are trying very hard. The appeal of something other than just another BORING standard or jumpers course - and nothing more - espcieally when we only have 2 trials the whole year! - is enough to make us work our tails off to set it up.

 

It may very well be the case that when we establish the "other" club, the obedience AKC club that unwillingly supports the agility side of things will cut off their support and the USDAA will be the only type of trials offered here. And that would be just fine with me!

 

And one other thing - I've never heard anyone say that they felt the AKC was the definer of status and achievement in the agility world. Quite the opposite. Of all the agility venues out there, AKC is regarded as the last resort. (from the folks I know here and on the mainland that regularly compete) All things being equal - drive time, entry fee, etc. My friends will take USDAA/NADAC over AKC hands down. Just more bang for your buck. If the AKC continues to limit the day to two runs, the popularity of the other venues will increase - as they have been.

 

Denise

[bobh]

Laura,

i do not know whih venue is the best, I would love more Usdaa because it is generaly more open and they allow mutts.

Most of the top agility teams do both AKC and USDAA . Hardly any do Nadac as far as I know. Akc asks for certain skills and Usdaa asks for other skills . Akc will add a 3rd game soon i think.

Eileen,

Nadac is its own worse enemy ,Very disorganizedand not challanging.However can be fun. Always late with Titles dificult to contact . ruls are changed daily

I can not blame Akc for the woes of all dogs iwould look to the breeders and the owners .

 

Denise , Ifeel that all the venues offer somthing and can not be all things to everyone .

[SoloRiver]

In my experience, there are three main reasons why people do AKC:

 

(1) It's there.

 

(2) The titles go on the papers and some breed clubs maintain rankings for this kind of thing.

 

(3) AKC has the whole World Team thing, and that is very prestigious.

 

By the way, to be eligible for the World Team a dog has to have valid, full AKC registration -- ILP dogs and rescues need not apply.

[Rave]

USDAA sends a team to the IFCS (International Federation of Cynological Sports) World Championships every year.

[laurie etc]

I heard that AKC was losing its provisionary status for the Agility world competition - something to do with not complying to the rest of the world federation's rules regarding ear cropping and tail docking - which is illegal in many countries. When that happens -AKC will definitely be the red-headed step child as far as agility goes - they are already on my S#@$ list for other reasons... I agree that USDAA agility (which was there before AKC agility came along) is much more challenging, fun and actually more prestigious as far as quality of competition. AKC is popular because, for some less driven and athletic breeds, the time limits, height requirements and rules are better suited.

[Eileen Stein]

Denise and Laurie, I hope you're right. I don't compete in agility, and am relying on perhaps inaccurate statements from those who do. Many people have claimed that non-AKC events are few and that the only way to compete in the World Agility Championship (which was portrayed to me as the pinnacle of status and achievement) was via AKC. I know there are some top-flight BC agility handlers who refuse to register with the AKC or compete in AKC events, but again, I've been told that they pay a high price for this, and that in general top agility handlers "couldn't afford" to bypass AKC competition and still retain their stature in the sport. But this is certainly not something I know about first-hand, and perhaps I've been misinformed. I hope so.

 

Bob, I can't blame AKC for the woes of all dogs either. Just the ones they're responsible for.

[Rave]

Living in the Mid-Atlantic/Southeast, I can compete pretty much every weekend in the Spring and Fall without doing AKC agility and without driving too far (just to surrounding states). Now it didn't use to be this way, but agility has grown exponentially in the last few years. Two years ago, there was only one USDAA club in NC hosting two trials a year, now there are four clubs hosting 10 trials a year. These USDAA clubs were formed by agility enthusiasts just to hold trials; they weren't established clubs who chose to offer another venue. This area supports a large number of NADAC and AKC trials as well, although the NADAC numbers are dwindling because of the way the organization is being run into the ground.

 

-Laura